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Hankovitch wrote:

 addnid wrote:
Grots are also a kind of comic relief, and As such I think GW doesn’t mind them being really bad and not having much use. There are tons of cool ideas floating around for grots, suicides bombers (like sguig bombs), snipers, SSAG ammo, etc. But I am skeptical GW has any such plans…

On one hand, GW sees grots and squigs as comedy units with "funny but useless" rules. On the other hand, grots with funny but useless rules are an irritatingly large portion of the ork releases we get.

I sure love getting miniatures released for my army that are nothing but "funny but useless" with little actual value on the table. Goodness knows that I just love to pack these units into every army list that I can continue to lose all my games of 40k. /eyeroll

I actually really like the idea of gretchin as a concept, but I do recognize that they never had the greatest of rules. And now that they're five points apiece I doubt they'll see much time on the table, at least in my armies. Seriously have no idea what GW was thinking when adjusting those points.

I just have an issue with 5 point grots cause grots are meant to be t2 s2 little goobers, but that's just not worth 5 points (unless maybe they can't be hit on better than a 5+ or somethin)

 addnid wrote:
Grots are also a kind of comic relief, and As such I think GW doesn’t mind them being really bad and not having much use. There are tons of cool ideas floating around for grots, suicides bombers (like sguig bombs), snipers, SSAG ammo, etc. But I am skeptical GW has any such plans…

What I am really curious about is how they will treat flash gitz and morka Gorka nauts

Hell, you could make grots worthwhile without doing any of that and preserving their identity as some of the worst units in the game at combat - theyve introduced actions into the game. give grots special abilities relating to making them good at scoring/actions, and that's a role that doesn't make you have to make them equally good at combat to units like guardsmen.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
I just have an issue with 5 point grots cause grots are meant to be t2 s2 little goobers, but that's just not worth 5 points (unless maybe they can't be hit on better than a 5+ or somethin)

Yes, assuming they keep the current attributes, to be worthy of the 5ppm cost they need some useful special rules, like native grot shield ability for anything that is placed behind them. Or maybe a rule that prevents them from being targeted from anything that is more than X'' away from them (8''-12'' maybe), as you know they're so tiny that they should be almost invisible .

 Blackie wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
I just have an issue with 5 point grots cause grots are meant to be t2 s2 little goobers, but that's just not worth 5 points (unless maybe they can't be hit on better than a 5+ or somethin)

Yes, assuming they keep the current attributes, to be worthy of the 5ppm cost they need some useful special rules, like native grot shield ability for anything that is placed behind them. Or maybe a rule that prevents them from being targeted from anything that is more than X'' away from them (8''-12'' maybe), as you know they're so tiny that they should be almost invisible .

That would work well actually, but it could be too strong. Or perhaps just give grots a native -1 to hit, or enemy units lose their rerolls when shooting them, because they are such a small target with small hitboxes
Why not both ! Make grots great again ! Make them hard to hit when shooting (they will still die to anything in CC).

 addnid wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
I just have an issue with 5 point grots cause grots are meant to be t2 s2 little goobers, but that's just not worth 5 points (unless maybe they can't be hit on better than a 5+ or somethin)

Yes, assuming they keep the current attributes, to be worthy of the 5ppm cost they need some useful special rules, like native grot shield ability for anything that is placed behind them. Or maybe a rule that prevents them from being targeted from anything that is more than X'' away from them (8''-12'' maybe), as you know they're so tiny that they should be almost invisible .

That would work well actually, but it could be too strong. Or perhaps just give grots a native -1 to hit, or enemy units lose their rerolls when shooting them, because they are such a small target with small hitboxes
Why not both ! Make grots great again ! Make them hard to hit when shooting (they will still die to anything in CC).

And flamers and blast weapons still work perfectly well against them, I like it. Quite thematic.

Native -1 to hit would be a good way to give grots the same level of defenses as comparable units (guardsman, brimstone horror, etc) without making them seem 'too strong to be grots'

I do think something like an unreliable grot shields (like on a 4+) as an always-on ability and something to do with them being good at doing objectives would be better than boosting up their combat capabilities.

As it stands a guardsman has vastly better defenses (T2 Sv7+ vs T3 Sv5+, also with lower leadership) and more than 2x the firepower at range, so they could use something. -1 to hit and unreliable grot shields would probably do it.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Native -1 to hit would be a good way to give grots the same level of defenses as comparable units (guardsman, brimstone horror, etc) without making them seem 'too strong to be grots'

I do think something like an unreliable grot shields (like on a 4+) as an always-on ability and something to do with them being good at doing objectives would be better than boosting up their combat capabilities.

As it stands a guardsman has vastly better defenses (T2 Sv7+ vs T3 Sv5+, also with lower leadership) and more than 2x the firepower at range, so they could use something. -1 to hit and unreliable grot shields would probably do it.

In slight fairness to grotz, they do get a 6+ save now, But since most anti-infantry weapons these days are S4 and S5, that means you are wounding grotz on a 2+ almost always and guardsmen on a 3+ Throw in their better armor save and leadership and suddenly its not even a contest, now add in their special rules and the range of their weapons and access to support weapons and now its just a joke.

I like the idea of grotz being -1 to hit for themselves AS WELL as all units behind them. They still suck at dmg, they still suck in CC and they are still ridiculously easy to kill, but now they at least offer a small bonus to all units behind them. The 4+ grot shields....is ok on top of that I guess, but honestly the fact remains that all of this still just makes grots an extra 5pt wound. Giving orkz a 2nd wound for 5pts sounds ridiculous on its own, hell Space Marines got one for like 2pts. I really want grots to be good, but at the moment they are just terrible.

I think it would be extremely "wwwwwhhhaacky!" if the grots had a -1 to hit themselves but a 3+ or even 2+ chance to pass off wounds targeted at units behind them onto their own unit.

That way, they're too quick and jumpy and small to target directly but if you're shooting at anything else they're accidentally "dodging" into the way.

Rihgu wrote:
I think it would be extremely "wwwwwhhhaacky!" if the grots had a -1 to hit themselves but a 3+ or even 2+ chance to pass off wounds targeted at units behind them onto their own unit.

That way, they're too quick and jumpy and small to target directly but if you're shooting at anything else they're accidentally "dodging" into the way.

Sounds proper orky to me

eh. I honestly don't think grots are *that* terrible right now, they're definitely not the 'core' unit of the faction the way guardsmen are, but they are a 50pt unit that's very easy to hide behind an objective and score points with. I would seriously unironically rather bring my 2000pt all grot stuff army into a more serious game than my gsc, tsons or tau, and that's like the silliest meme list around.

...mostly I chalk that up to grot tanks finally being usable but grots with Cheeky Zoggerz and a nearby paingrot persistently irritate my opponents.

 the_scotsman wrote:
eh. I honestly don't think grots are *that* terrible right now, they're definitely not the 'core' unit of the faction the way guardsmen are, but they are a 50pt unit that's very easy to hide behind an objective and score points with. I would seriously unironically rather bring my 2000pt all grot stuff army into a more serious game than my gsc, tsons or tau, and that's like the silliest meme list around.

...mostly I chalk that up to grot tanks finally being usable but grots with Cheeky Zoggerz and a nearby paingrot persistently irritate my opponents.

Right, but what do Grots do right now besides exist and score objectives for you? Not a damn thing. What did grots gain between 8th and 9th that justified a 66% increase in price? were grots OP in 8th? No, they were god awful, but were great for cheap CP batteries and for dying in droves to protect a loota bomb.

Loota bombs don't exist anymore, you are actively punished for bringing multiple detachments now, so why the 66% increase now? At 3pts they are a "meh" throw away scoring unit, at 5pts they are massively over priced.

Keep in mind, all of this is talking about grot troops rather than anything else. I'm not talking about grot tanks or Killakanz, just grots. Compare them to any other troop choice in the game right now, is there any that are worse? (honest question I don't think their are).

Weeellll.... In 9th edition, the ability to perform actions does make a "stand there and do nothing" unit more valuable to your strategy than before, all other things remaining the same. For instance, in 8th edition, you simply would never have a good reason to Da Jump a throwaway unit of ten grots behind enemy lines. Currently, doing exactly that could net you a significant number of victory points (or deny them to the enemy). Hell, kommandos suddenly became more valuable in 9th just to step into the board and Deploy Scramblers.

So, the rules for matched/tournament play have enhanced the value of grots without any changes to stats and rules. That being said, I'm undecided whether there is enough value there to warrant them being 5ppm.

Hankovitch wrote:
Weeellll.... In 9th edition, the ability to perform actions does make a "stand there and do nothing" unit more valuable to your strategy than before, all other things remaining the same. For instance, in 8th edition, you simply would never have a good reason to Da Jump a throwaway unit of ten grots behind enemy lines. Currently, doing exactly that could net you a significant number of victory points (or deny them to the enemy). Hell, kommandos suddenly became more valuable in 9th just to step into the board and Deploy Scramblers.

So, the rules for matched/tournament play have enhanced the value of grots without any changes to stats and rules. That being said, I'm undecided whether there is enough value there to warrant them being 5ppm.

"Stand there and do nothing" and also be wounded by 95% of all the weapons in the game on a 2+ with a 6+ save, no access to stratagems besides one that kills them basically and unable to be buffed for the most part.

So yeah, they can stand there and score a point as well as any other unit in the game, but that is literally all they can do since they are armed with S3 pistols and are useless in CC. So they hold a point but cant project any threat or force at all.

Hankovitch wrote:
Weeellll.... In 9th edition, the ability to perform actions does make a "stand there and do nothing" unit more valuable to your strategy than before, all other things remaining the same. For instance, in 8th edition, you simply would never have a good reason to Da Jump a throwaway unit of ten grots behind enemy lines. Currently, doing exactly that could net you a significant number of victory points (or deny them to the enemy). Hell, kommandos suddenly became more valuable in 9th just to step into the board and Deploy Scramblers.

So, the rules for matched/tournament play have enhanced the value of grots without any changes to stats and rules. That being said, I'm undecided whether there is enough value there to warrant them being 5ppm.

Why would you bring a unit of gretchin for 50 if you can have a unit kommandoz do that job better in every way for 45?

Especially in regards to orks, points per model don't make for cheap units if you have to bring a lot of them to get a viable unit. 10 gretchin aren't worth 50 points because they are so easy to kill. A unit of guardsmen, poxwalkers or kommadoz is super durable in comparison.

SemperMortis wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
eh. I honestly don't think grots are *that* terrible right now, they're definitely not the 'core' unit of the faction the way guardsmen are, but they are a 50pt unit that's very easy to hide behind an objective and score points with. I would seriously unironically rather bring my 2000pt all grot stuff army into a more serious game than my gsc, tsons or tau, and that's like the silliest meme list around.

...mostly I chalk that up to grot tanks finally being usable but grots with Cheeky Zoggerz and a nearby paingrot persistently irritate my opponents.

Right, but what do Grots do right now besides exist and score objectives for you? Not a damn thing. What did grots gain between 8th and 9th that justified a 66% increase in price?

two big things really. And again, this comes from someone who regularly plays grot-focused 2k army lists.

1 - morale is no longer a thing that allows you to effectively wipe the remaining 50% of a large squad, and instead is something that generally in the most extreme circumstance kills like 5 models in a totally unprotected squad

2 - actions and other secondaries allow grots to contribute much more toward winning the game than they used to.

I get more out of fielding 5pt grots in 9th than I did out of fielding 3pt grots in 8th.

But grots in 9th are completely useless as kommandos do the exact same job for less points, while also having natural deepstrike, more staying power and better offensive abilities. 5 stormboyz are just 10 points more expensive than 10 gretchins, and also extremely better than the little fellas in doing the same job; 10 boyz are just 30 points than 10 gretchins and hundred times better.

In 9th there's really no point in taking gretchins unless there's a problem of models availability.

 Blackie wrote:
But grots in 9th are completely useless as kommandos do the exact same job for less points, while also having natural deepstrike, more staying power and better offensive abilities. 5 stormboyz are just 10 points more expensive than 10 gretchins, and also extremely better than the little fellas in doing the same job; 10 boyz are just 30 points than 10 gretchins and hundred times better.

In 9th there's really no point in taking gretchins unless there's a problem of models availability.

The question of 'does anything else do the same job arguably better' was not what I was asked to answer. What I was asked was 'how did gretchin improve from 8th to 9th to warrant a points increase'? which I answered. I get better use out of my grots in 9th than 8th. I can actually play my 2k all-grot list fairly effectively, it's kind of hilarious tbh.

Yeah IMO grots are overpriced. If you asked me to design them, I'd make additional gretchin over the min size cost less. I think theyd be about right at 4ppm with maybe one small additional rule or bonus.

 Blackie wrote:
But grots in 9th are completely useless as kommandos do the exact same job for less points, while also having natural deepstrike, more staying power and better offensive abilities. 5 stormboyz are just 10 points more expensive than 10 gretchins, and also extremely better than the little fellas in doing the same job; 10 boyz are just 30 points than 10 gretchins and hundred times better.

In 9th there's really no point in taking gretchins unless there's a problem of models availability.

10 grots take 10 wounds. 5 kommandoz take 5. There is a limited amount of shooting that can reach a unit that is OOLOS. Kommandoz can pick up better cover, but is that going to make them visible?

One should use both units, really.

10 Grots take 14-15 S4 AP0 hits to kill.
5 Kommandos take 12 of the same to kill.

 JNAProductions wrote:
10 Grots take 14-15 S4 AP0 hits to kill.
5 Kommandos take 12 of the same to kill.

Sure, but you've completely bottomed out grots at that point.

they take 14-15 hits...of any strength 4 or above, any AP 0 and above.

In my experience with them, that tends to make them quite a bit more frustrating to deal with when you look at armies like Space Marines who tend to add strength and AP to be good at killing things. Especially because the defenses you can give them (like a 6++ from cheeky zoggers) are also agnostic to incoming attack quality.

 JNAProductions wrote:
10 Grots take 14-15 S4 AP0 hits to kill.
5 Kommandos take 12 of the same to kill.

10 grots are also 10% more expensive than 5 kommandos. The pt for pt comparison would be 9 grots vs 5 kommandos and to kill 9 grots it takes 13 shots. Now add in the benefits of cover and kulture and stratagems and the fact that kommandos can actually inflict dmg on units while grots really cant. Grots shouldn't be more than 3pts at the absolute extreme, that or they need a fairly hefty buff. Going to T3 and giving them a 5+ save would actually make them worth 5ppm since it would make them more durable than 5 kommandos while also continuing to make them functionally useless in actual combat.

SemperMortis wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
10 Grots take 14-15 S4 AP0 hits to kill.
5 Kommandos take 12 of the same to kill.

10 grots are also 10% more expensive than 5 kommandos. The pt for pt comparison would be 9 grots vs 5 kommandos and to kill 9 grots it takes 13 shots. Now add in the benefits of cover and kulture and stratagems and the fact that kommandos can actually inflict dmg on units while grots really cant. Grots shouldn't be more than 3pts at the absolute extreme, that or they need a fairly hefty buff. Going to T3 and giving them a 5+ save would actually make them worth 5ppm since it would make them more durable than 5 kommandos while also continuing to make them functionally useless in actual combat.

The issue is that if you make grots t3 and a 5+ save, they're not grots. The design space for grots is that they're t2 and like a nothin save. I'd be fine payin 5 points if they just got a free grot shield or somethin lol, just have em be extra wounds for 3 points.

Grots probably don't perform as well vs Deathskull Kommandos or Stormboyz, simply because those units can perform a similar roll for similar cost, as well as do way more (infiltrate for free, Stormboyz can zoom out 18" guaranteed then potentially charge).

Grots probably outperform 10 boys, though, in terms their actual game impact. 30 points is a lot in an Ork army, and grots are just cheaper action bots. 10 Boys output is not enough to be interesting in our bad matchups.

If boys actually get killy maybe this cost-benefit between the two changes.

I think we're kind of forgetting that those other units are not typically obsec and take up potentially useful slots depending on what new units pop out.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I think we're kind of forgetting that those other units are not typically obsec and take up potentially useful slots depending on what new units pop out.

I am referring to the current codex, of course. We have no idea what the new codex will bring in terms of unit usefulness.

Ork Elite slots are uncompetitive so taking 3 x 5 kommandos is rarely ever going to be an issue. Fast attack is definitely hyper competitive, though, given how useful Deff Koptas, Buggies, and Stormboyz are. I'd even argue Nob Bikers are alright given their 30 ppm base cost and 3 wounds.

As it is though, Grots are pretty bad for their cost given 9th edition codexes. Like a poxwalker is 5 ppm... you can't tell me a grot even pales to a poxwalker.

Point per wound, grots are more expensive than scarabs I believe (they are 14?), and those can even get obsec *and* fly.

Right now, unless you're packing a Goff Skarboy tide, Ork troops are really, really uninteresting. Grots are just filler for screening and action bots; 10 boys just aren't worth the 80 points you spend (again, compare this to like.. 5 assault intercessors for 95 or something).

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
10 Grots take 14-15 S4 AP0 hits to kill.
5 Kommandos take 12 of the same to kill.

10 grots are also 10% more expensive than 5 kommandos. The pt for pt comparison would be 9 grots vs 5 kommandos and to kill 9 grots it takes 13 shots. Now add in the benefits of cover and kulture and stratagems and the fact that kommandos can actually inflict dmg on units while grots really cant. Grots shouldn't be more than 3pts at the absolute extreme, that or they need a fairly hefty buff. Going to T3 and giving them a 5+ save would actually make them worth 5ppm since it would make them more durable than 5 kommandos while also continuing to make them functionally useless in actual combat.

The issue is that if you make grots t3 and a 5+ save, they're not grots. The design space for grots is that they're t2 and like a nothin save. I'd be fine payin 5 points if they just got a free grot shield or somethin lol, just have em be extra wounds for 3 points.

If they were still 3pts you might have an argument here, but they aren't 3pts anymore, they are 5pts. A notoriously under powered Chaos cultist is 5ppm as well, it comes standard with a 24' rapid fire gun as opposed to a 12' pistol. A cultist has +1 movement, +1 WS, +1 S, +1 T, +1 LD (+2 with champion) and the same save. Keeping in mind I am not saying cultists are good in any way, shape or form. I am merely pointing out that a pathetically weak unit like cultists is actually.....significantly more powerful than grots.


So lets break down the problems. 1: Its already a unit with a kit which means you can't "add" new weapons/gear without pushing out a new kit so you have to work with the stats rather than the equipment for the most part. 2: The unit is pathetically under powered. 3: The unit needs a unique design space to fill a role that isn't done better or cheaper than other ork units.

So with that in mind you are left with statlines to play with. We can't utilize their better BS without a new kit to give them better guns, you could buff their WS and make them better in CC but....why? Orkz are already good at CC and a grot can't be better pt for pt than an Ork boy. So you are now basically left with Toughness, wounds and Save. I think T3 with a 5+ puts them in a position where they are basically as durable as an ork boy but without any dmg potential, this gives them a place in the game as a relatively cheap objective holder that is at least slightly harder to remove from play.

Baking in "Grot shield" sounds good except yet again, they aren't 3ppm anymore they are 5 and GW seems hellbent on not letting units get any cheaper than 5ppm. With that in mind, I don't know about you but 5pt grot shields seems a bit too expensive for my taste.

5ppm grot shields are no different than 15ppm tau shield drones.

One could justify T3 for gretchin for the "orky" tougthness but I can't see to justify a 5+ for what are basically naked green babies.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
10 Grots take 14-15 S4 AP0 hits to kill.
5 Kommandos take 12 of the same to kill.

10 grots are also 10% more expensive than 5 kommandos. The pt for pt comparison would be 9 grots vs 5 kommandos and to kill 9 grots it takes 13 shots. Now add in the benefits of cover and kulture and stratagems and the fact that kommandos can actually inflict dmg on units while grots really cant. Grots shouldn't be more than 3pts at the absolute extreme, that or they need a fairly hefty buff. Going to T3 and giving them a 5+ save would actually make them worth 5ppm since it would make them more durable than 5 kommandos while also continuing to make them functionally useless in actual combat.

The issue is that if you make grots t3 and a 5+ save, they're not grots. The design space for grots is that they're t2 and like a nothin save. I'd be fine payin 5 points if they just got a free grot shield or somethin lol, just have em be extra wounds for 3 points.

I've been at this too long. Gretchin at T2 is still super weird to me. When did that demotion happen?

Voss wrote:

I've been at this too long. Gretchin at T2 is still super weird to me. When did that demotion happen?

3rd edition codex. I literally just pulled out my books to double check.

Fun fact: back in 2nd edition gretchin were 5pts/each but could be taken in mobs of 10-40 and had autoguns and flak armor(6+ save).