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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





It also fits their run and gun style. Now that -1 doesn't mean lots of futile dice rolls.

   
Made in us
Stealthy Grot Snipa





Atlanta, GA

As someone who plays mainly shoota boyz, I can assure you that DDD is good but not great. It's a helpful boost to ork shooting, but it's far from "mow down entire squads of space marines" good.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 Mr. Grey wrote:
As someone who plays mainly shoota boyz, I can assure you that DDD is good but not great. It's a helpful boost to ork shooting, but it's far from "mow down entire squads of space marines" good.
Current Dakka Dakka Dakka is equivalent to RR1s to-hit.
If DDD changes to 6s to-hit score an extra hit, it'd become equivalent to +1 BS.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 JNAProductions wrote:
 Mr. Grey wrote:
As someone who plays mainly shoota boyz, I can assure you that DDD is good but not great. It's a helpful boost to ork shooting, but it's far from "mow down entire squads of space marines" good.
Current Dakka Dakka Dakka is equivalent to RR1s to-hit.
If DDD changes to 6s to-hit score an extra hit, it'd become equivalent to +1 BS.


If you only look at averages, that's true. The difference is that +1 BS makes weapons more reliable, while extra hits on sixes make weapons more swingy.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Jidmah wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Mr. Grey wrote:
As someone who plays mainly shoota boyz, I can assure you that DDD is good but not great. It's a helpful boost to ork shooting, but it's far from "mow down entire squads of space marines" good.
Current Dakka Dakka Dakka is equivalent to RR1s to-hit.
If DDD changes to 6s to-hit score an extra hit, it'd become equivalent to +1 BS.


If you only look at averages, that's true. The difference is that +1 BS makes weapons more reliable, while extra hits on sixes make weapons more swingy.


While I would tend to agree with your assessment when it comes to small numbers of shots, in a full squad of shoota boyz, there is so much dices to roll that an extra hit on a 6 vs +1 to BS becomes virtually the same.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






I'd argue that a full squad of shoota boyz is one of the units that could get +1BS free of charge and still be mediocre.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in de
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin




So, if it's true they do away with some of the rolling, what do you think will happen to the Flash Gitz' show off rule? A simple +1BS when they destroy a unit instead of rolling for additional shooting?
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Jidmah wrote:
I'd argue that a full squad of shoota boyz is one of the units that could get +1BS free of charge and still be mediocre.


Well I would qualify it indeed as mediocre in proper sense of the term as in average and unremarkable, but not in the sometime used sense of bad or poor. I used this setup and it did got the job done (more or less) though I'm not the kind of player that participate in competition so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Sgt. Cortez wrote:
So, if it's true they do away with some of the rolling, what do you think will happen to the Flash Gitz' show off rule? A simple +1BS when they destroy a unit instead of rolling for additional shooting?


That's just a single roll though, it's unlikely that they streamline that.

The issue with dakka³ is that every time an ork unit shoots, you have to count sixes and roll some additional dice, which is fun but also time consuming. Halving that time while buffing orks against -1 to hit that hits them harder than any other army seems like decent idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
epronovost wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
I'd argue that a full squad of shoota boyz is one of the units that could get +1BS free of charge and still be mediocre.


Well I would qualify it indeed as mediocre in proper sense of the term as in average and unremarkable, but not in the sometime used sense of bad or poor. I used this setup and it did got the job done (more or less) though I'm not the kind of player that participate in competition so take my opinion with a grain of salt.


It doesn't really matter how competitive your gaming is. I don't think there is any unit in the game right now for that you'd go "oh, shoota boyz will definitely do a good job killing that with their shootas".

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/16 20:24:20


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in ca
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge



Canada

 Jidmah wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
So, if it's true they do away with some of the rolling, what do you think will happen to the Flash Gitz' show off rule? A simple +1BS when they destroy a unit instead of rolling for additional shooting?


That's just a single roll though, it's unlikely that they streamline that.

The issue with dakka³ is that every time an ork unit shoots, you have to count sixes and roll some additional dice, which is fun but also time consuming. Halving that time while buffing orks against -1 to hit that hits them harder than any other army seems like decent idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
epronovost wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
I'd argue that a full squad of shoota boyz is one of the units that could get +1BS free of charge and still be mediocre.


Well I would qualify it indeed as mediocre in proper sense of the term as in average and unremarkable, but not in the sometime used sense of bad or poor. I used this setup and it did got the job done (more or less) though I'm not the kind of player that participate in competition so take my opinion with a grain of salt.


It doesn't really matter how competitive your gaming is. I don't think there is any unit in the game right now for that you'd go "oh, shoota boyz will definitely do a good job killing that with their shootas".


I mean, a full mob of 30 does an average of 10 wounds to guardsmen... So, you could reliably wipe out a squad of them every turn? But you'd have to do that every turn to make back your points.

Yikes...


Imperial Guard - 1500 GSC - 250  
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Jidmah wrote:
It doesn't really matter how competitive your gaming is. I don't think there is any unit in the game right now for that you'd go "oh, shoota boyz will definitely do a good job killing that with their shootas".


On top of my head I would say a bunch of termagants, hormagaunts, gargoyles, regular guardsmen, most Genestealer cult infantry, Kroots, Choppa Boyz. In a pinch I would use them against stuff like Scions, Dire Avengers, Wytches. Anything that is low armor and low toughness is a good target and since shootas are fairly cheap they don't suffer much from shooting at other cheap units. Is there better stuff to deal with those units on a point for point basis, probably, but shootas can do it.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

epronovost wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
It doesn't really matter how competitive your gaming is. I don't think there is any unit in the game right now for that you'd go "oh, shoota boyz will definitely do a good job killing that with their shootas".


On top of my head I would say a bunch of termagants, hormagaunts, gargoyles, regular guardsmen, most Genestealer cult infantry, Kroots, Choppa Boyz. In a pinch I would use them against stuff like Scions, Dire Avengers, Wytches. Anything that is low armor and low toughness is a good target and since shootas are fairly cheap they don't suffer much from shooting at other cheap units. Is there better stuff to deal with those units on a point for point basis, probably, but shootas can do it.
60 shots, assuming 30 Boys with Shootas.

That's an average of 23.33 hits.
Against T3, 15.56 wounds.
Against a 6+, that's just shy of 13 dead. Just over 10 for a 5+.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 JNAProductions wrote:
epronovost wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
It doesn't really matter how competitive your gaming is. I don't think there is any unit in the game right now for that you'd go "oh, shoota boyz will definitely do a good job killing that with their shootas".


On top of my head I would say a bunch of termagants, hormagaunts, gargoyles, regular guardsmen, most Genestealer cult infantry, Kroots, Choppa Boyz. In a pinch I would use them against stuff like Scions, Dire Avengers, Wytches. Anything that is low armor and low toughness is a good target and since shootas are fairly cheap they don't suffer much from shooting at other cheap units. Is there better stuff to deal with those units on a point for point basis, probably, but shootas can do it.
60 shots, assuming 30 Boys with Shootas.

That's an average of 23.33 hits.
Against T3, 15.56 wounds.
Against a 6+, that's just shy of 13 dead. Just over 10 for a 5+.


That's pretty much what I thought too. About 10 casualty per round of shooting. It's enough to accomplish a task like blunting an upcoming charge, clearing an objective, weakening an enemy and it's not enough for the enemy to press the panic button and destroy it ASAP like a looming squad of Nobz or Meganobz ends up. Making consistent, but low damage over longer period is more of their shtick. Sure choppa boyz are flashier since a charge from a big squad of them can erase most problems very quickly, but I think the shootas decidedly deserve their title as a "meh" kind of unit.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Everyone's math is correct, of course.

However, what you are missing is that this unit of shoota boyz costs 240 points.

10 casualties against units that cost 5-8 points per model is not good by any metric, especially not if it requires getting 30 models in 18" range without any intervening terrain whatsoever.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in fr
Mutilatin' Mad Dok






 Jidmah wrote:
Everyone's math is correct, of course.

However, what you are missing is that this unit of shoota boyz costs 240 points.

10 casualties against units that cost 5-8 points per model is not good by any metric, especially not if it requires getting 30 models in 18" range without any intervening terrain whatsoever.


Yes that is what does shoota boyz in. If they rolled to hit without neg penalties in the shooting phase (like drukhari trueborn) and/or had better range they could be interesting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/17 08:31:55


Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Jidmah wrote:
Everyone's math is correct, of course.

However, what you are missing is that this unit of shoota boyz costs 240 points.

10 casualties against units that cost 5-8 points per model is not good by any metric, especially not if it requires getting 30 models in 18" range without any intervening terrain whatsoever.


No, it's indeed not good, but it's not that bad either. Plus, for 240 points it does more than kill stuff it can score objective or contest them, sponge damage for other, much more destructive units, etc. They aren't good, they are mediocre in the proper sense of the term.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Jidmah wrote:
Everyone's math is correct, of course.

However, what you are missing is that this unit of shoota boyz costs 240 points.

10 casualties against units that cost 5-8 points per model is not good by any metric, especially not if it requires getting 30 models in 18" range without any intervening terrain whatsoever.


Shoota boyz are weird, because you have to throw them into melee, too. They're still respectable there. Is putting out wounds at range and having 75% of the attacks make them much worse than choppas? Maybe if choppas had AP.

   
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Annandale, VA

Statistically speaking, a Shoota Boy in a large mob who shoots and then charges averages 2.78 S4 hits, while a Slugga Boy averages 3.06.

So in terms of raw damage, in one turn a Shoota Boy averages only slightly less, while having more of that damage being applied at range. They're not that dissimilar. I would think problems with Shoota Boyz reflect more on problems with Boyz in general.

My regular Ork opponent likes Shoota Boyz simply because a mob of 30 can all shoot after Da Jumping, whereas when they charge it'll be unlikely for more than half to get into combat. He also plays Bad Moons, which gives those Shootas comparable damage to Sluggas rather than less.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/17 16:21:26


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I think it's 3.06 vs 3.17 - you missed DDD on the Shootas? Not that it matters much.

1 * 1.167 * .333 = 0.39
4 * .666 = 2.67

3 * 1.167 * .333 = 1.17
3 * .666 = 2




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Makes for a pretty handy unit if they get some interesting guns. Come on new grot kit!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/17 16:55:10


   
Made in ca
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge



Canada

Hmmm, interesting. But you get the same effect from having over 20 in a mob. (Or at least, you do right now.) The action and shoot could be quite useful though.

Imperial Guard - 1500 GSC - 250  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Mr. Grey wrote:
As someone who plays mainly shoota boyz, I can assure you that DDD is good but not great. It's a helpful boost to ork shooting, but it's far from "mow down entire squads of space marines" good.


DDD is "Meh" at best. its a 1/6th chance to gain a 1/3rd chance to hit. You will always have those fun stories about the time you fired a rokkit and ended up with 2 hits but for every story like that there are a plethora of "didn't do anything" rolls you forgot about.

 Jidmah wrote:
I'd argue that a full squad of shoota boyz is one of the units that could get +1BS free of charge and still be mediocre.

 Jidmah wrote:
Everyone's math is correct, of course.

However, what you are missing is that this unit of shoota boyz costs 240 points.

10 casualties against units that cost 5-8 points per model is not good by any metric, especially not if it requires getting 30 models in 18" range without any intervening terrain whatsoever.


exactly this. A 240pt shooting unit that is built like a glass cannon (1W T4 with a 6+ save) should be inflicting massive dmg initially because they won't be sticking around long on the battlefield. And being able to kill just under 2 Marines a turn isn't exactly "massive" dmg. Bumping them to BS4 AND keeping DDD (Current iteration) bumps their Dmg from under 4dmg to Just under 6. So even giving them a full +1 BS Shoota boyz struggle to kill 54pts of Space Marines a turn..or 60pts if you upgrade them to intercessors.

if DDD gets buffed to be an extra auto-hit it would increase their dmg again to 6.6dmg. So again, still not even ground breaking, and sadly as someone already mentioned, I have a fear that if DDD does get the auto-hit upgrade they will change the rule to only effect shoota type weapons which would be a MASSIVE nerf to Orkz. While incredibly swingy and random, I'd gladly keep the CHANCE of exploding rokkitz and Smasha gunz over a guaranteed extra hit on shoota type weapons.


 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

Super Runts could be amazing if Mek Gunz get the CORE keyword. Could be nice on kanz as well, but I fear that only standard gretchins will be CORE. BS3+ with S3 no AP 12'' weapons is not tempting at all. Besides, large units of gretchins get a native +1 to hit anyway.

However the new character also have the fighting last rule that could be extremely useful.

Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in fr
Mutilatin' Mad Dok






 Blackie wrote:
Super Runts could be amazing if Mek Gunz get the CORE keyword. Could be nice on kanz as well, but I fear that only standard gretchins will be CORE. BS3+ with S3 no AP 12'' weapons is not tempting at all. Besides, large units of gretchins get a native +1 to hit anyway.

However the new character also have the fighting last rule that could be extremely useful.


We know kanz and mek gunz won't be CORE in the codex, but perhaps we will get a way of turning them into CORE units if x and y condition is met. But for mek gunz, if they have a way of getting CORE, then I don't think 40 points smasha gunz will still be a thing. If we have a way of getting smahsas to hit on 3s, then we are looking at 45-50 point smashas at the very least... Unless we get drukhari levels of "point efficiency"

Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






There is no precedent for a unit gaining CORE for any reason though. I'd be very suprised if mek guns get that keyword, they are the kind of unit for which they specifically created this keyword.

When you look at drukhari and necrons, the only non-infantry units likely to get CORE are deff dreads, warbikers and the new squighog riders.
Beyond that kanz and koptas are the only units which I feel like they have even a sliver of a chance to become core. Any other vehicles and characters will definitely not get it.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Kanz probably should be Core but I can imagine them not being so because Grots are bad mmmk.

I fear Mek Guns will be nerfed into oblivion - although with the modern GW design paradigm who knows. (Max squad of 3 perhaps would serve as a limiter if armies of 18 offend.)
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 Jidmah wrote:
There is no precedent for a unit gaining CORE for any reason though. I'd be very suprised if mek guns get that keyword, they are the kind of unit for which they specifically created this keyword.

When you look at drukhari and necrons, the only non-infantry units likely to get CORE are deff dreads, warbikers and the new squighog riders.
Beyond that kanz and koptas are the only units which I feel like they have even a sliver of a chance to become core. Any other vehicles and characters will definitely not get it.


Talos and Cronos, which are monsters, are also CORE. If dreads get to have the keywork I don't see why kanz shouldn't get it. Mek Gunz I agree, that would be something new and they probably won't get the keyword.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote:


I fear Mek Guns will be nerfed into oblivion - although with the modern GW design paradigm who knows. (Max squad of 3 perhaps would serve as a limiter if armies of 18 offend.)


Doubt it, they're the most expensive ork kit and one of the most expensive in the entire GW catalogue. I expect different loadouts to be the new go-to rather than nerfing the whole unit, like traktors of bubblechukkas. Putting a cap on the squadron could be reasonable, as not many players typically buy or would be willing to buy in the future more than 9 of them anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 10:39:35


Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Blackie wrote:
Super Runts could be amazing if Mek Gunz get the CORE keyword. Could be nice on kanz as well, but I fear that only standard gretchins will be CORE. BS3+ with S3 no AP 12'' weapons is not tempting at all. Besides, large units of gretchins get a native +1 to hit anyway.

However the new character also have the fighting last rule that could be extremely useful.


Yeah, i doubt anything but regular gretchins will be CORE. if Killa Kanz get core (I mean, they're walkers, GW, every other walker has been, eh? eh?) then he'll be very very good but I do sincerely doubt it.

Hilariously this makes him even less useful in my over-2000pt all grots all the time army, because I plan on losing an average of 40-50 grots per turn usually, and if I take this dude, the first 30 will just be the super ones absolutely no doubt.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Blackie wrote:
Super Runts could be amazing if Mek Gunz get the CORE keyword. Could be nice on kanz as well, but I fear that only standard gretchins will be CORE. BS3+ with S3 no AP 12'' weapons is not tempting at all. Besides, large units of gretchins get a native +1 to hit anyway.

However the new character also have the fighting last rule that could be extremely useful.


Lets be honest, grots suck and have no use except as cheap troop choices to fill requirements, they are a "Tax" unit at best. In 8th they were "good" but only because they were again, cheap troop choices to be CP batteries, they also had their 1 strat that did what? killed them. Apparently that upset a lot of people because now grotz had an actual purpose, luckily with the nerf to "Mob up" the loota bomb went away and grot shields is no longer something used that often.

Giving 1 unit of grots +1 to hit would do nothing to alleviate their biggest issues that you mentioned. T2, 6+ save, 12' pistols at S3. The unit is armed like it wants to be in or near CC but has no benefit to being near CC and dies so ridiculously fast. So either make them dirt cheap, which GW won't do since 5ppm is the cheapest they want to go, make them ridiculously durable...which is exactly what grots shouldn't be. Or give them some kind of benefit I.E special rules that makes them worth 5ppm or gives them a use for +1 to hit...maybe give them actual weapons?

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in fr
Mutilatin' Mad Dok






Grots are also a kind of comic relief, and As such I think GW doesn’t mind them being really bad and not having much use. There are tons of cool ideas floating around for grots, suicides bombers (like sguig bombs), snipers, SSAG ammo, etc. But I am skeptical GW has any such plans…

What I am really curious about is how they will treat flash gitz and morka Gorka nauts

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 15:15:16


Ere we go ere we go ere we go
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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 addnid wrote:
Grots are also a kind of comic relief, and As such I think GW doesn’t mind them being really bad and not having much use. There are tons of cool ideas floating around for grots, suicides bombers (like sguig bombs), snipers, SSAG ammo, etc. But I am skeptical GW has any such plans…


On one hand, GW sees grots and squigs as comedy units with "funny but useless" rules. On the other hand, grots with funny but useless rules are an irritatingly large portion of the ork releases we get.
   
 
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