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Nope.

I'm allowed to speculate if I want to...

Im surprised you don't think It totally stinks of a "paywall premium sub" style of thing but for minatures... hobby is expensive enough as it is.
I mean is it really that much of a stretch to think GW would not make this basicaly a mandatory subscription if you want o play their games? Lock enough rules, book behind a paywall and its no longer optional if you want to be part of the community.

Some people don't spend any money with GW for a couple months because their armies are not getting releases/rules. They could ensure everybody is giving them at least £6 a month...
The cynic in me says this is exactly what they are going for.

"Have you got your Warhammer loicense mate?"

If they can charge people for simply wanting to participate in the community what makes you think they wouldn't monetise it ?
Plenty of people would lap it up without a second though.

I don't care about what it is now. I care about the direction this is likely to go..

 Argive wrote:
Nope.

I'm allowed to speculate if I want to...

There is a difference between speculation and nonsense. You're talking nonsense.

Im surprised you don't think It totally stinks of a "paywall premium sub" style of thing but for minatures... hobby is expensive enough as it is.

And yet things like the Hatchett Partworks series exist. A subscription service that gets you Warhammer at drastically cheaper prices. Weird.

I mean is it really that much of a stretch to think GW would not make this basicaly a mandatory subscription if you want o play their games?

Yes because there isn't a shred of evidence to support this line of thinking.

Lock enough rules, book behind a paywall and its no longer optional if you want to be part of the community.

Nope. There would be loads of legal and other ways to obtain said rules. And if every single rulebook was locked behind an app subscription, Warhammer would die overnight.

Some people don't spend any money with GW for a couple months because their armies are not getting releases/rules. They could ensure everybody is giving them at least £6 a month...

Nope.

The cynic in me says this is exactly what they are going for.

The fearmongering GW-hater you mean?

If they can charge people for simply wanting to participate in the community what makes you think they wouldn't monetise it ?
Plenty of people would lap it up without a second though.

Except this is utter tosh and has no basis in reality.

I don't care about what it is now. I care about the direction this is likely to go..

You don't know what direction it's going to go so you're making up scary nonsense to further fan the flames of anti-GW sentiment.
Like I said earlier, be mad at actual problems and don't make up nonsense to justify your beliefs.

 Gert wrote:
There is a difference between speculation and nonsense. You're talking nonsense.

How's it nonsense to think GW may put more and more stuff behind the WH+ umbrella paywall if its going to be making them lots of money?

You are entitled to your opinion.
Just because you don't like the possible trend I'm pointing out don't make it nonsense.

Nonsense would imply its totally outside of realms of possibility. Do you think its totally outside of realms of possibility ?

I don't think it will come to it. I certainly hope it doesn't.
I certainly don't like the possibility.

 Argive wrote:
How's it nonsense to think GW may put more and more stuff behind the WH+ umbrella paywall if its going to be making them lots of money?

Because there is no indication that Warhammer + is going to make the company boatloads of cash. It's £60 a year, not £60 a month. Compare that to the sales from physical books and it'll be far less, I guarantee it.

You are entitled to your opinion.
Just because you don't like the possible trend I'm pointing out don't make it nonsense.

What trend? What has GW locked behind a subscription paywall that you can't readily get with regards to models and rules? Name me a single thing.

Nonsense would imply its totally outside of realms of possibility. Do you think its totally outside of realms of possibility ?

In this instance yes, absolutely because it wouldn't be a sound business decision. People like their rule books and Codexes as physical copies, it would do loads more damage to remove that option.

I don't think it will come to it. I certainly hope it doesn't.
I certainly don't like the possibility.

It's about as possible as GW deciding to return to exclusively metal models tomorrow.

 Gert wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Nope.

I'm allowed to speculate if I want to...

There is a difference between speculation and nonsense. You're talking nonsense.

Im surprised you don't think It totally stinks of a "paywall premium sub" style of thing but for minatures... hobby is expensive enough as it is.

And yet things like the Hatchett Partworks series exist. A subscription service that gets you Warhammer at drastically cheaper prices. Weird.

I dont need to buy anything from HP. But I do need to guy the latest GW codex for my army if I wantt o play current edition with my army.. HP has nothing to do with what im saying..

I mean is it really that much of a stretch to think GW would not make this basicaly a mandatory subscription if you want o play their games?

Yes because there isn't a shred of evidence to support this line of thinking.

Where did I say this was a fact that was going to occur? Its merely speculating worst case scenario.

BUT if you wanted evidence then surely having 2 models locked behing a paywall is a start.
What if the next set of models come with kick ass rules that are broken? Not even broken just "unique" or slightly better..
Obviously no evidence for this but its a speculation.. WH is all about P2W already.. why not milk a monthly fee on top?

Lock enough rules, book behind a paywall and its no longer optional if you want to be part of the community.

Nope. There would be loads of legal and other ways to obtain said rules. And if every single rulebook was locked behind an app subscription, Warhammer would die overnight.

By your own standards thats "nonsense". You have no evidence Warhammer would die overnight..
For the record I dont think it would die. I think a lot of people would chekc out but a lot of people would double down because thats how popular GW games are...

Some people don't spend any money with GW for a couple months because their armies are not getting releases/rules. They could ensure everybody is giving them at least £6 a month...

Nope.

Yes.

The cynic in me says this is exactly what they are going for.

The fearmongering GW-hater you mean?

The only hater seems to be you mate... Im just throwing some ideas out there riffing...
Are you afraid my post will lower your GW shares or something ? : D

If they can charge people for simply wanting to participate in the community what makes you think they wouldn't monetise it ?
Plenty of people would lap it up without a second though.

Except this is utter tosh and has no basis in reality.

Plenty of companies have moved to/attempted a subscription based services thing.. You think GW is above that as a company ?

I don't care about what it is now. I care about the direction this is likely to go..

You don't know what direction it's going to go so you're making up scary nonsense to further fan the flames of anti-GW sentiment.
Like I said earlier, be mad at actual problems and don't make up nonsense to justify your beliefs.

 Argive wrote:
I dont need to buy anything from HP. But I do need to guy the latest GW codex for my army if I wantt o play current edition with my army.. HP has nothing to do with what im saying..

You called it a premium subscription service for minis and said it the hobby was expensive enough already. The Partworks have everything to with what you're saying because it's a cheap subscription service for minis.

Where did I say this was a fact that was going to occur? Its merely speculating worst case scenario.

Blind speculation is just fearmongering. All you're doing is planting doubt where none exists.

BUT if you wanted evidence then surely having 2 models locked behing a paywall is a start.

2 models which represent units that already have models available to buy. Not the smoking gun you're making it out to be.

What if the next set of models come with kick ass rules that are broken? Not even broken just "unique" or slightly better..

And what if it isn't? So far the models revealed as part of WH+ don't have unique rules that make them broken or anything of the sort. They're just alternative models.

Obviously no evidence for this but its a speculation.. WH is all about P2W already.. why not milk a monthly fee on top?

Because it's needless negativity and fearmongering for literally no reason.

By your own standards thats "nonsense". You have no evidence Warhammer would die overnight..
For the record I dont think it would die. I think a lot of people would chekc out but a lot of people would double down because thats how popular GW games are...

People are already mad that digi-Codexes are gone, it's not a stretch to imagine the outcry if physical copies were removed from circulation.

The only hater seems to be you mate... Im just throwing some ideas out there riffing...
Are you afraid my post will lower your GW shares or something ? : D

Ideas that only serve to promote negative viewpoints based on non-existent evidence. I have and will call out stupid or bad business practices if I deem it appropriate but making up nonsense that someone, somewhere will take as gospel and spread it around like the plague is how we get situations like with Alfabusa.

Plenty of companies have moved to/attempted a subscription based services thing.. You think GW is above that as a company ?

Companies with huge media catalogs, yes. Can you name a single company that requires a subscription service to use rules?

I think you are projecting something personal here.. Not sure why are you so vehemently attacking me...

It's not personal, you're just the only one posting such nonsense.

Can you name any other company that sells as many books/rules as GW with such a massive "churn"? Its complete bonkers... And yet they are still in business. GW is very unique in its position within the market & the industry. They have the monopoly on GW hobby. They can charge you for GW hobby if they want...


Many people myself included have been advocating for a rules in one place system..

If they offered like a £10 a month sub where you got all the rules rather then have to wait for paper books a lot of people would happily pay that, Heck Id probably be one of them. Nothing stopping them making physical books on top for the collectors like me who'd buy them anyway..

They'd make heaps of money on anyone who would normally only buy 2-3 codexes in an edition cycle..

Getting random streaming service and list building app on top would just be a bonus and all parts of the hobby would drive sales respectively...

GW has always been about bringing everything together under one roof type of company. Growing the WH+ to encompass more parts of the hobby seems like the sort of thing they'd want to do. They are not a content creation company so they will have to supplement their WH+ with something I think.
Why not rules? Why not models with rules?

I don't think its as bad a business idea as you make it out to be.

Not saying they'd do it tomorrow or today but two years from now? Who knows.

The end result is the same: Warhammer loicense

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:

Spoiler:

See, what I've read is that they hired them, not threatened or abused them.

Most of the people took the job too, so either:

a) the pay was good enough
b) the job security was good enough
c) the benefits were good enough
d) the intrinsic rewards of doing what you love for a living was enough
e) the degree of control retained by the creator was sufficient
f) the animators are looking to build a career and thought that the job might increase their contacts and reputation within the industry more than fan art youtube videos

Or some combination of those six elements.

Now I'm not saying GW is perfect, no corporation is. I wish the content creators were able to talk about their arrangements so we knew whether they had it good or not. But not being able to disclose salary and the inner workings of a contract are very common business practices.

If the animators were having a bad experience, I'm guessing they'd leave; we know that one has, but interestingly enough, if I recall correctly, this creator wasn't getting communication from GW, which is bad, but in terms of actual abuse, the creator was getting far more of that from @$$ho3$ who call themselves "fans" because THEY were P!$$3D because the creator getting his dream job meant that they couldn't continue to get the work for free.

And yes, I know, many of these creators do have fans who financially support their work via patreon, but funny thing: since those guys were already paying, they're probably far less upset about a $70/ year subscription since they now get not only the creator of their choice for their money, but other creators as well.

Talk to people in the Gig economy. It is true there are a handful who love it. In my experience, they are the minority- almost every gig worker I've ever spoken to would much prefer a real job.

We know GW doesn't pay well to creatives, that's an established fact. I really doubt most of the content creators big enough to get "approached" (call it an offer, a threat, whatever) will make anywhere near as much money working for GW as they did via freelance. And just to make sure the door is not opened, I say all of this as a statement irrespective of the legality of the freelance operations. That's not the point here (not preemptively accusing you of bringing up something irrelevant, Jake, just trying to get that out of the way.)

Gene my boy, the issue I have with the whole calling it an "approach" is there isn't a way for GW to force them to work for them. This isn't Seinfeld, where the judge can force you to be a butler due to a car wreck. The fact that many took the offer indicates that there is more value in working for the evil corporation than staying freelance or even getting a job elsewhere. Now, that's not to say that creative types at GW, or even across many fields, are underpaid for the work put in. But the idea that an IP suit could force them into employment by the evil empire makes little sense.

except right now we have no reason to assume content will be locked behind it, so far what we know is that their content will in fact be locked behind BOOK purchases, requiring you to buy a book before the content is unlocked in an app. if GW was going to do some sort of subscription digital service thingy, they'd instead have bundled those codes with a digital purchase only. and kept producing digital books. ones only accessable on their website. which clearly isn't happening.

we can specculate as to future plans etc, but it's little more then parinoid conspiracy theories at this time.

If their animated content isn't going to be worth it then they're going to be looking at ways to make that subscription worthwhile. Perks will be a very simple thing for them to do, and that could go sour pretty easily.

Just tried to subscribe to wh+ and just get spinning yellow circle

Broken at launch? Or just me?

That's a common problem as well, I think it's typical demand swapping the servers that we get every time something new releases on GW's website.

Gene my boy, the issue I have with the whole calling it an "approach" is there isn't a way for GW to force them to work for them. This isn't Seinfeld, where the judge can force you to be a butler due to a car wreck. The fact that many took the offer indicates that there is more value in working for the evil corporation than staying freelance or even getting a job elsewhere. Now, that's not to say that creative types at GW, or even across many fields, are underpaid for the work put in. But the idea that an IP suit could force them into employment by the evil empire makes little sense.

Sneakyferret my boy ... it is absolutely an "approach". One that used to be used all too often in the entertainment industry. I'll spare everyone my TedTalk on it, but if you're interested on how this works, look at my posts here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240/798400.page#11136040

TL;DR - can they literally, legally "force" them to work for them? No. Can they strong-arm them in a very underhanded and cynical way? Yes. You are wrong to simply assume the creators agreement indicates that it's a good deal. I may be wrong as well. I just know this is a scenario that has played out too many times in the past to not be suspicious.

except right now we have no reason to assume content will be locked behind it, so far what we know is that their content will in fact be locked behind BOOK purchases, requiring you to buy a book before the content is unlocked in an app. if GW was going to do some sort of subscription digital service thingy, they'd instead have bundled those codes with a digital purchase only. and kept producing digital books. ones only accessable on their website. which clearly isn't happening.

we can specculate as to future plans etc, but it's little more then parinoid conspiracy theories at this time.

Yeah - they'd be especially foolish to lock everything behind the sub any time soon. They need it to launch and be successful before they even think about that. Obviously the shows will be behind the pay-wall (as that's the whole point of the platform), but anything else? At the very least, that's a stretch for them at this point. MAYBE in the future, but as you say, we don't really have evidence yet.

EDIT:

Meant to also say that I tried to check this out, but I really couldn't get into it. On multiple levels. I didn't make it very far, but then I'm guessing this particular show wasn't meant "for me" so I'm hesitant to be too harsh on it.

 Gert wrote:
Anyone want to stop making up random nonsense that has no basis in reality?
Seriously, be annoyed at things that are actually there.

Amen. Its pretty clear that a large segment of this fanbase suffer from severe delusion and paranoia. What little has been said by the animators themselves has only been positive, that GW has been very generous and the offer they made them was too good to say no to - we know what these animators were making in many cases, tahnks to the transparency of patreon, in most cases it was 6+ figures a year - I very much doubt GW offered them less than what they thought they could get doing non-GW freelance content). The only negative we've heard was from a guy who said that GW wasn't responding to his emails (any number of reasons why that might be) and ultimately quit because he was being harassed by fans who made him uninterested in continuing to work on the IP.

People seem to be taking things out of context (no, GW doesn't pay its "creatives" poorly, it paid its rules writers/game designers poorly - James was pretty clear that he didn't know what the sculptors and artists made but that he suspected it was a good bit more than he was getting paid, and later clarified further that his friends and contacts within the company were in general disagreement with his assessment of the compensation situation there) or just making gak up (no, they aren't going to be "blacklisted" for speaking out against GW. GW is a non-factor in the animation/video game/film & television/entertainment industry, its effectively an indy startup when it comes to its status to anyone that matters in terms of the career advancements of these animators. If they were well known creatives at a major, well-established, and reputable studio it would be one thing, but as it stands they can say whatever they wanted about GW and nobody that they would be interviewing with for work in the future would ever have heard anything about it. Not to mention the fact that most of these guys are fairly anonymous and only really known by their online usernames/handles).

They *should* be happy for the animators (in general they seem to be pretty happy for themselves) instead of peddling tinfoil hat conspiracies of these guys being enslaved/tortured/held at gunpoint/forced to accept job offers under duress and coercion, etc. I assure you, if they were actually being threatened and blackmailed into working for GW they would stand to make significantly more money in what would essentially be a pro-bono lawsuit about that than they would doing anything else.

I can't speak for GW, but I can speak with experience at the apex of the games industry - in organisations that make much more than GW.

A 'Games Designer' is absolutely a creative role. Would definitely be getting paid more than an animator in most cases, and neither would be pulling down six figures...

I'd be utterly shocked if people in those positions are making anything near that working for GW. We know categorically, that rates of pay within that company, are very much on the low side for equivalent roles in other places.

I can't say I know for certain (and nor can anyone stating the contrary), but it's a very sensible conclusion based on what we do know. Being realistic based on the evidence we have (while still being prepared to be wrong), isn't being paranoid.

In terms of other sensible conclusions:
- We shouldn't expect to know definitively any time soon what pay and conditions are like for these guys, as no-one is likely to speak about the terms of their position at a company they just joined. Especially if what they have to say is negative.
- What they made before via ad revenue, patreon etc is not very relevant. GW's policy changes toward fan content such as this have made such an income look incredible unstable at best. They are in a position, quite literally, to say 'do this for us, or not at all', OR 'do this for us, or be taken to court'. I'm not saying this occurred, but the implication seems very clear to the creators that didn't get hired, yet chose to shut down.
Stating, 'Look, we're changing our policies toward content like yours, because we're launching a streaming service. This isn't something we'll turn a blind eye to in future, but we'd love you to come and create this content for us.' Is very different in tone to having a gun put to your head (which is of course ridiculous), but the end result is much the same, if you want to continue doing what you love.

It should be ok for the community to have a problem with this. And they shouldn't have to deal with 'tin foil hat' insults in response, in place of reasoned, respectful discussion of the counterpoint either. We can be better than that.

I can't speak for GW, but I can speak with experience at the apex of the games industry - in organisations that make much more than GW.

A 'Games Designer' is absolutely a creative role. Would definitely be getting paid more than an animator in most cases, and neither would be pulling down six figures...

Game designers in the video game industry are an entirely different animal from designers in the tabletop industry. I can tell you that while James wages at GW were atrociously low, there aren't any game devs at any of the major tabletop game publishers making 6 figure salaries with the exception of a literal handful of guys (who are mostly freelancers or on extended contracts with the publishers) like Eric Lang whos name on the box basically guarantees100,000 copies of the game will be sold within a week or two of release (which is an absurd number, in the tabletop industry most games will never sell more than 2,000-3,000 copies).

Being a rules writer/game designer (theres a reason I keep putting that slash there) in the tabletop industry isn't a particularly competitive job market, even less so within the miniature wargaming sub-niche where theres basically only a handful of real employer options (GW, Asmodee/FFG/AMG, Privateer Press, Warlord, Battlefront, Wyrd, Warcradle, Corvus Belli, and then debatably also Catalyst, CMON, and Wizkids). Most of those shops are pretty small and limited to only a handful of actual design staff (and most of them rely on freelancers and contract staff), everyone else is an artist, illustrator or logistics/manufacturing/customer service, etc. Only GW really has an extensive staff of writers/designers on payroll. Everyone else in the industry is basically operating out of their basement/garage or the staff have a financial stake in the company itself.

So in general, you either take what money you can get or you find another industry to work in unless you get lucky and manage to get a spot with one of the handful of other businesses in the industry. Its not like other industries where companies will pay top dollar to recruit talent from a competitor or where theres more openings than there are people to fill them.

Which leads me to...

I'd be utterly shocked if people in those positions are making anything near that working for GW. We know categorically, that rates of pay within that company, are very much on the low side for equivalent roles in other places.

An artist, an animator, a sculptor, etc. has many more career opportunities open to them outside of the tabletop industry than a tabletop game designer does. Wages for good artists, animators, 3d modelers/sculptors, etc. is going to be competitive on the basis that there are other companies that people can go to in other industries where they can practice their craft.

I can't say I know for certain (and nor can anyone stating the contrary), but it's a very sensible conclusion based on what we do know. Being realistic based on the evidence we have (while still being prepared to be wrong), isn't being paranoid.

You're conveniently discounting or ignoring the various statements made by the animators, which while not being particularly detailed, did indicate in general that their interactions with GW were positive and they were excited by the opportunity, etc. Of course, that doesn't fit your narrative so you choose to ignore it and substitute your own reality and pretend there is an absence of evidence in order to suit your fantasy that GW is a generic mustache-twirling faceless evil corporation. Sounds pretty paranoid to me.

- What they made before via ad revenue, patreon etc is not very relevant. GW's policy changes toward fan content such as this have made such an income look incredible unstable at best. They are in a position, quite literally, to say 'do this for us, or not at all', OR 'do this for us, or be taken to court'. I'm not saying this occurred, but the implication seems very clear to the creators that didn't get hired, yet chose to shut down.

Its absolutely relevant. Just because GW stops you from producing new content based on their IP doesn't mean you can't produce new content based on another/an original IP. Look at Alfabusa, he shut himself down and actually got *more* patreon subs and views as a result of that even though he isn't really producing any content at all currently and looking to switch over to a completely different IP (Battletech). Theres also at least one instance of a creator who was approached by GW, turned down their offer, and has continued to produce new content, seemingly unmolested by GW. Also "do this for us or..." is absolutely 100% illegal and can land GW in some real hot water.

 Argive wrote:
Can you name any other company that sells as many books/rules as GW with such a massive "churn"? Its complete bonkers... And yet they are still in business. GW is very unique in its position within the market & the industry. They have the monopoly on GW hobby. They can charge you for GW hobby if they want...


Many people myself included have been advocating for a rules in one place system..

If they offered like a £10 a month sub where you got all the rules rather then have to wait for paper books a lot of people would happily pay that, Heck Id probably be one of them. Nothing stopping them making physical books on top for the collectors like me who'd buy them anyway..

They'd make heaps of money on anyone who would normally only buy 2-3 codexes in an edition cycle..

Getting random streaming service and list building app on top would just be a bonus and all parts of the hobby would drive sales respectively...

GW has always been about bringing everything together under one roof type of company. Growing the WH+ to encompass more parts of the hobby seems like the sort of thing they'd want to do. They are not a content creation company so they will have to supplement their WH+ with something I think.
Why not rules? Why not models with rules?

I don't think its as bad a business idea as you make it out to be.

Not saying they'd do it tomorrow or today but two years from now? Who knows.

The end result is the same: Warhammer loicense

This looks like a complete hobby nightmare... Unfortunatly if GW thinks it would increase their profits they would probably follow that path... Wikes

And yet it's complete nonsense so there's literally nothing to worry about.

chaos0xomega wrote:

You're conveniently discounting or ignoring the various statements made by the animators, which while not being particularly detailed, did indicate in general that their interactions with GW were positive and they were excited by the opportunity, etc. Of course, that doesn't fit your narrative so you choose to ignore it and substitute your own reality and pretend there is an absence of evidence in order to suit your fantasy that GW is a generic mustache-twirling faceless evil corporation. Sounds pretty paranoid to me.

That's absolute rubbish. Please don't pretend to know my mind and tell me what I'm counting or discounting. Nor have I ever implied that GW is evil in any way! If I truly thought that, I wouldn't spend money with them. You continue to be needlessly insulting toward anyone who simply does not agree with you.

I'm sorry, companies - especially those involved in the entertainment sector - DO pay far lower (generally) than mainstream industry. I have been part of this exact phenomena throughout my professional career.

You know what? I would never have bad-mouthed (publicly) Electronic Arts while I was employed there. I'd have been an idiot to. The new hires at GW might well be happy with their lot. As I said earlier in this thread - good for them! But you show me proof of a six figure salary paid to an animator by GW. Because without that, your position is more easily disregarded than mine. My partner was a professional animator in industry, for one of the largest companies on the planet, and never, ever has pulled a six figure wage. Ever. Nor has any member of her team - some of whom hail from ILM, Dreamworks etc. That's my 'reality', actual, solid experience of that job and its pay.

Again, as I also said in this thread, it is less about the people they hired, and far more about those they didn't, and who felt they had to shut down. Another 'reality'.

Its absolutely relevant. Just because GW stops you from producing new content based on their IP doesn't mean you can't produce new content based on another/an original IP. Look at Alfabusa, he shut himself down and actually got *more* patreon subs and views as a result of that even though he isn't really producing any content at all currently and looking to switch over to a completely different IP (Battletech). Theres also at least one instance of a creator who was approached by GW, turned down their offer, and has continued to produce new content, seemingly unmolested by GW. Also "do this for us or..." is absolutely 100% illegal and can land GW in some real hot water.

If you read and understood what I said, I didn't state that GW made a threat. I drew a comparison based on the position they have put people in. If GW intends to protect their IP, as they have in the past (reality), and as they have just updated their documentation to indicate (reality), then what future is there for someone making 40K fan animations? That an individual, hasn't (to our knowledge) been 'molested' in what? A matter of days, two weeks at most? Indicates... nothing. Whatsoever. We have no idea how they will react. Not me, not you. What we have is their past behaviour, and an indication of intent from information GW put out - both of which do not look promising. Reality.

Alfabusa doesn't remotely make your case for you, when they are quite literally looking to stop making GW based content, and are thinking of switching to Battletech instead. How precisely is that them being unaffected by GW policy changes and the launch of WH+?

I'm drawing possible conclusions based on what we know - while fully admitting that I could be wrong because there is much we don't. Your position so far is part assumption, part insult to anyone who holds a different view. Maybe you are right, but it remains a fact that a strong argument stands just fine on its own - it doesn't require vitriol or derision to be part of it's foundation.

 StrayIight wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:


You know what? I would never have bad-mouthed (publicly) Electronic Arts while I was employed there. I'd have been an idiot to. The new hires at GW might well be happy with their lot. As I said earlier in this thread - good for them! But you show me proof of a six figure salary paid to an animator by GW. Because without that, your position is more easily disregarded than mine. My partner was a professional animator in industry, for one of the largest companies on the planet, and never, ever has pulled a six figure wage. Ever. Nor has any member of her team - some of whom hail from ILM, Dreamworks etc. That's my 'reality', actual, solid experience of that job and its pay.

So thats my bad, I misread your post:

A 'Games Designer' is absolutely a creative role. Would definitely be getting paid more than an animator in most cases, and neither would be pulling down six figures...

I missed the "neither" and thought you were saying that they would get 6 in the video game industry.

My understanding though (based on an interview with the guy behind Angels of Death) is that these guys are essentially being treated as "studios" rather than "employees", and their income is inclusive of the production budgets to design and render all the assets, etc. In which case, yeah they would be getting paid 6 figures, though they would also have expenses coming out of that too - as was the case when they were doing it as a side gig on patreon, etc.

I'd be utterly shocked if people in those positions are making anything near that working for GW. We know categorically, that rates of pay within that company, are very much on the low side for equivalent roles in other places.
I can't say I know for certain (and nor can anyone stating the contrary), but it's a very sensible conclusion based on what we do know. Being realistic based on the evidence we have (while still being prepared to be wrong), isn't being paranoid.

Its really not though. If I can pull $250k+/year on patreon (as was the case with the guy behind Astartes), off of a 5 minute animation which earned me international acclaim and name recognition well outside the 40k community that I could well and away leverage into a professional position with one of the companies you've mentioned, I'm not going to shut that down and walk away from it for a $30-40k per year salary. Just not going to happen. Anyone that takes that deal is out of their mind. GW can tell me to cease and desist on producing further Astartes content, sure, but I *still* have the Patreon (even if it is scrubbed of Astartes) and I *still* have the name recognition and followership. Even if they forced the entire Patreon to shut down, there are ways to rebuild that subscription base pretty quickly (and it would probably get me even *more* subs because people flock to those sorts of david v goliath martyrdom stories like white on rice). Even if I go bugger off and do my own thing with my own IP or a smaller lesser known IP, I would probably still retain a sizeable chunk of that followership if I played my cards right, while also attracting new followers from other communities. Theres really no justifiable reason or explanation for why I would shut down a $250k per year income for less - I could see an argument for taking a salary half that if it meant more stability or whatever, but if the options were "take our proposal for 1/6th of what you're currently making, or find a new IP to mine", I'd find a new IP to mine.

If you read and understood what I said, I didn't state that GW made a threat. I drew a comparison based on the position they have put people in. If GW intends to protect their IP, as they have in the past (reality), and as they have just updated their documentation to indicate (reality), then what future is there for someone making 40K fan animations? That an individual, hasn't (to our knowledge) been 'molested' in what? A matter of days, two weeks at most? Indicates... nothing. Whatsoever. We have no idea how they will react. Not me, not you. What we have is their past behaviour, and an indication of intent from information GW put out - both of which do not look promising. Reality.

The legal system generally does not take kindly to IP infringement cases that are brought forward without the plaintiff demonstrating that they first made an effort to communicate and resolve the issue with the defendant. They especially won't take kindly to a lawsuit where the defendant can counterclaim that the legal action is retribution or reprisal for not agreeing to a job offer, etc. This is just basic legal reality, and I'm sure GW is well aware that doing something more drastic can have not only a damaging impact on their IP (similar to Chapterhouse), but also financial ramifications (penalties, fines, damages, etc. awarded to the defendant), result in jailtime (predatory legal practices on the part of GW legal), and irreparably damage the brand in terms of the companies relationship with its customers and community.

In short, the "position" you are imagining here does not actually exist.

Alfabusa doesn't remotely make your case for you, when they are quite literally looking to stop making GW based content, and are thinking of switching to Battletech instead. How precisely is that them being unaffected by GW policy changes and the launch of WH+?

Alfabusa *chose* to stop producing 40k content. They were not asked or told to. They did not reach out to GW legal to get clarification on whether GW would regard TTS as being a work of parody and thus legally protected, etc. There was no suggestion that GW would take any action against Alfabusa and TTS whatsoever, and to date they haven't. Note that every episode of TTS remains online on youtube on a monetized channel, to this day. Alfabusa no longer making new episodes is irrelevant, while those episodes are online GW is still within their legal right to issue a C&D and have his youtube channel and patreon pulled. And yet... they haven't. Imagine that.

In any case, the case which Alfabusa does make for me is that GW pulling the rug out from an animator that doesn't agree to take a job with them by telling them to C&D on producing further 40k animations doesn't actually mean that the animator in question suddenly loses their income. I.E. the leverage or position you are imaging GW has to coerce an animator to obey doesn't exist. While Alfabusa was not C&D'd he did voluntarily put out a notice stating he would make no further episodes. His supporter base did not suddenly unsubscribe for him and stop giving him money, instead he actually had a steady stream of new subs from people as he transitions over to producing Battletech content or whatever, even while most of his existing fanbase aren't actually Battletech fans.

I really appreciate you taking the time to re-read and consider the earlier part of my post Omega - thank you for that.

I can't accurately predict the future, and without knowing more about what GW will do, there's little I can add in terms of honest argument. I would be speculating, and that - as you and others rightly have implied, gets us nowhere - even if it were an interesting thought exercise (which I'm not certain it is).

You make some good points, and we'll all see in time how the 'drama' around the launch of this new service unfolds.

I think ultimately, my concern is that GW has been heavy handed in the past, and occasionally makes decisions which appear, frankly, bizarre. I really love this hobby, and want it's community to be not just healthy, but an asset both to GW, and to itself. I think we can, as a community, encourage them to be clearer about what they intend, where that leaves passionate, creative fans within their community, and maybe remind them that those people can do a lot of good for them in truth.

I was never personally invested in any of the affected content. It's not my thing really. But I do feel bad for those that feel they have had to shut up shop. And maybe you're right, and they didn't have to. But it's there I think GW could have clarified their position.

I hope WH+ becomes a positive service that enriches the hobby. Right now, I don't think it's doing that - but it's early days, and it's undoubtedly going to grow. Fingers crossed eh?

They *should* be happy for the animators (in general they seem to be pretty happy for themselves) instead of peddling tinfoil hat conspiracies of these guys being enslaved/tortured/held at gunpoint/forced to accept job offers under duress and coercion, etc. I assure you, if they were actually being threatened and blackmailed into working for GW they would stand to make significantly more money in what would essentially be a pro-bono lawsuit about that than they would doing anything else.

Heh ... if only it really worked like that. But what you listed is ... naive. What GW is doing is literally, play-for-play straight out of the old-school studio playbook. Make no mistake. You're an independent creator. You don't have much money. GW offers a job on one hand or Thor's hammer to the face in the other .... most are taking the job.

No one has said "they're being tortured/abused" etc. But, from experience, I can tell you this was, at the very least, a strategy for talent phishing. A very cynical one that, at the very least, allowed them to low-ball the deal. They have every right to protect their IP and certainly it needs to be said they could have just brought legal action and NOT offered employment but on the other hand .... go read my posts in the thread I linked to ...

Tycho wrote:

They *should* be happy for the animators (in general they seem to be pretty happy for themselves) instead of peddling tinfoil hat conspiracies of these guys being enslaved/tortured/held at gunpoint/forced to accept job offers under duress and coercion, etc. I assure you, if they were actually being threatened and blackmailed into working for GW they would stand to make significantly more money in what would essentially be a pro-bono lawsuit about that than they would doing anything else.

Heh ... if only it really worked like that. But what you listed is ... naive. What GW is doing is literally, play-for-play straight out of the old-school studio playbook. Make no mistake. You're an independent creator. You don't have much money. GW offers a job on one hand or Thor's hammer to the face in the other .... most are taking the job.

No one has said "they're being tortured/abused" etc. But, from experience, I can tell you this was, at the very least, a strategy for talent phishing. A very cynical one that, at the very least, allowed them to low-ball the deal. They have every right to protect their IP and certainly it needs to be said they could have just brought legal action and NOT offered employment but on the other hand .... go read my posts in the thread I linked to ...

My 2c:
Making fan works isn't really being an indie creator, because you're not really creating something new independently. It's a passion project for something you like. Presumably, assuming you're not in college or something, you're making your money in a real job. [And, if you are making fan works as your sole source of income, that's incredibly reckless and long-term unsustainable]
GW is going to have to "do better" than whatever your day job is for you to drop what you're doing and work for them full time. Or you take on their contract part time as a matter of entertainment, in which case it's a little bit nice extra to actually get paid for making a tribute to something you like and recognized by it's creator.



On the original topic, I didn't watch it, and I don't plan to subscribe. I didn't even know it happened, or I might have to see what it was though. That said, it doesn't have anything I feel like I need in my life [or engaged with before]. I don't really care about batreps, and I probably wouldn't watch a professional Warhammer 40k show or movie.

Also professional short animations for GW would be a great way to pad a resume/make contacts , the folks working for GW likely aren't looking at GW as "I'm stopping here" they likely view it as a "... this'll be a great way to eventually get that job with an animation studio, or even Pixar!"

BrianDavion wrote:
Also professional short animations for GW would be a great way to pad a resume/make contacts , the folks working for GW likely aren't looking at GW as "I'm stopping here" they likely view it as a "... this'll be a great way to eventually get that job with an animation studio, or even Pixar!"

This too.

I think it's nice of GW to provide the opportunity, even if it's just to a small subset who got their attention that they liked.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Also professional short animations for GW would be a great way to pad a resume/make contacts , the folks working for GW likely aren't looking at GW as "I'm stopping here" they likely view it as a "... this'll be a great way to eventually get that job with an animation studio, or even Pixar!"

This too.

I think it's nice of GW to provide the opportunity, even if it's just to a small subset who got their attention that they liked.

I mean it's a transactional relationship, and I suspect GW got the better end of the deal, but yeah, hopefully this'll be a step to greater things for some of these people

 Argive wrote:
Can you name any other company that sells as many books/rules as GW with such a massive "churn"? Its complete bonkers... And yet they are still in business. GW is very unique in its position within the market & the industry. They have the monopoly on GW hobby. They can charge you for GW hobby if they want...

The ministry of education. Obligatory books that they pick you need to learn at school, with maybe some options of additional books. But in general you have one official book per subject. Printed in private print shops, so uncles/fathers/etc can make good money, Changed every 10 months, so you can't use the book from prior year. Cost of the books themselfs are mandated by the state, making the books cost as if they were laced with gold.

Karol wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Can you name any other company that sells as many books/rules as GW with such a massive "churn"? Its complete bonkers... And yet they are still in business. GW is very unique in its position within the market & the industry. They have the monopoly on GW hobby. They can charge you for GW hobby if they want...

The ministry of education. Obligatory books they pick you need to learn at school, with maybe some options of additional books, but in general you have one official book per subject. Printed in private print shops, so uncles/fathers/etc can make good money, Changed every 10 months, so you can't use the book from prior year. Cost of the books themselfs are mandated by the state, making the books cost as if they were laced with gold.

.......... he's not wrong

BrianDavion wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Also professional short animations for GW would be a great way to pad a resume/make contacts , the folks working for GW likely aren't looking at GW as "I'm stopping here" they likely view it as a "... this'll be a great way to eventually get that job with an animation studio, or even Pixar!"

This too.

I think it's nice of GW to provide the opportunity, even if it's just to a small subset who got their attention that they liked.

I mean it's a transactional relationship, and I suspect GW got the better end of the deal, but yeah, hopefully this'll be a step to greater things for some of these people

No. This isn't how it works anymore. If you're not in the industry, what you're saying makes sense. But "It will be great experience", "Think about the exposure," "It's a great way to pad your resume," = we can't pay you. I realize GW never said that, but just pointing out why some in the thread are balking at some of the statements made by the posters who clearly don't have as much (or possibly any) experience in this area.

And the fact is, it's never been easier to make money if you're as skilled as some of these folks are. Do you really think anyone cares if Sayama has "worked for Games Workshop" on his resume? No. No they do not. Most of the time, when I'm hiring for an art position on my team (whether it be animation, illustration, Industrial Design, etc) I don't even look at the resume. It's straight to the portfolio. If this person has a demo reel with Astartes quality work on it, they're getting an interview. I don't care if they don't even HAVE a resume at that point ...

As far as "conditions," we at least know that several of the creators have already said GW isn't supporting them properly in terms of timely feedback, and consistent communication. This was one of the key contributors to Ultramarines being such a disaster, and if you read the posts I made in the thread I linked, you'll see I predicted that too. This isn't being set up correctly. It just isn't. I'm not saying they're torturing people over there (no one is and whoever said that is off their rocker), and I'm not saying this is going to fail or that GW DEFINITELY did something shady here. Only time will tell. But I am saying this wreaks of a fairly problematic approach on several levels.

But again, far as the Ork animation they just shared - I think it's important to consider whether or not you as the viewer were in the target demographic. My sense is, that was meant for a younger crowd (at least as far as I could tell from what I watched - didn't see the whole thing). I was underwhelmed and tuned out quick, but I am pretty sure it wasn't aimed at "me" anyway.

Which creators who are actually working with GW have said they get slow feedback and poor communication?
I know the DKoK creator had it but they don't work with GW.