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I think the point of a free market economy is that a company either performs well or fails, I give a crap about how GW is doing on a global scale. If the company cratered tomorrow the community would persist, even past the advent of a replacement game/company. And we would be better off for it, GW has shown a remarkable lack of concern for the long time fanbase, it's history and the in-game history as well. And given the fact that the company has floated by on the goodwill of fans through some rather stupid decisions, I'd say it's very nearly a matter of familial respect to provide paying customers with access to their library of old sculpts.

Hairesy wrote:And yet we have tolerated GW for so many years and allowed them to actively monopolize

You don't seem to understand what a monopoly is. GW doesn't have one. They only have a "monopoly" on their own products and IP.

and harm the gaming community to the point where if you don't play one of their games, your options are limited. How many fantastic games are out there that go unplayed because 40k or MtG has a stranglehold on the gaming tables?

So play those other games. Convince others to play them too.
If you can't, that sounds like a you problem, not a GW one.

Inquisitor Gideon wrote:That's more down to the community than the companies themselves. It's down to the community to leave the mold and play and grow these "fantastic" games themselves. GW, Magic, they just create and sell a product, same as any other business. Spouting off about monopolies or community harm just speaks of ignorance.

QFT.

Hairesy wrote:If the company cratered tomorrow the community would persist, even past the advent of a replacement game/company.

Citation needed.

If you think the community can and will persist so much and so well, why aren't homebrew rulesets more common and widely used amongst the community?

 Hairesy wrote:
I'll also point out that while we're arguing about 3d printing and whether or not that affects the hobby, Miguelsan has a closet full of no-nonsense GW kits. I think GWs bottom line will be fine if I go buy some recasts one day.

Edit: Also, the top thread in P&M tuts is a guy building Rhinos out of paper, so... people are going to play IP protected games for free or very cheaply no matter what the medium is, hell I've been playing Chapter Master all week and GW killed that game.

I'm afraid you got me confused with somebody, I don't have a closet full of GW kits, just a display cabinet with half finished miniatures.
I will confess a certain hostility against GW in the 3d printing/3rd party bits issue because I was in the mist of finishing an Eldar army with a heavy use of count as figures when the Chapter House suit happened. Though GWs stated aim at the time was to protect their IP everybody could see that GW was trying to curtail, if not shut down, the growing 3rd party bits market. It was the rise of all the alternate head companies, and those companies were getting bolder, and had started dipping their toes in providing alternate sculpts to units GW had never bothered with. I repeat myself, but we all know by now how Kirby's GW overextended themselves.

I was always cool with the idea of not being able to play with my 3rd party bits in a GW store, there was only one in Tokyo at the time after all, but Japanese player base being what it is GW's stance against prefectly legal 3rd party bits spread around, so my army suddenly became no good for the (not)FLGS. Currently I play in a loosely organized club, so far no issues with my IK army (Knights 100% GW, baby knights modified mecha kits) but I'm very wary that 3d printing backslash happens because GW overreaches again.

M.

Edit: I also didn't take very well GW squatting my Khemri that happened kind of at the same time.

Did you not post a picture in another thread showing off your collection of unbuilt kits?

Oh well, either way GW is going to do fine until people decide that they've had enough of their BS and quit en masse. Warhammer TV or whatever they're calling it is another indication that things haven't changed at all.

That was not me. I do have the equivalent of half a closet worth of Battletech on the other hand.

M.

 Miguelsan wrote:
Half a closet worth of Battletech.

This is the way.

 kodos wrote:
my problem here is just that those who carbon copy or make close to cc 3d models and sell them do not hurt GW, they hurt other artists who are trying to make their own and make a living from it

those want to make money on the back of GW while at the same time supporting GW as a company as without the popularity of 40k and GWs prices they won't make money

while those that try to make their own fall flat

I think it's a bit of a stretch to assume that if people weren't using copied GW models they would instead be supporting other artists who are making their own thing.

Why?
Because people have done this in the past and now time has changed?

You want a cheap alternative to GW models to play 40k, you take the best thing that is available

No one will now say, if there are no carbon copies available I sell my printer and buy GW plastic again

Just because internet warriors tell people that all models outside GW are ugly and not detailed enough for wargaming does mean this is the case in real life

And other artists also try to be better than GW, but of course if the cheapest available model is the carbon copy but unless like in other cases you are told it is ok to buy rip offs because GW Evil and everyone else worse, why should you look for different and more expensive ones

 kodos wrote:
Why?
Because people have done this in the past and now time has changed?

You want a cheap alternative to GW models to play 40k, you take the best thing that is available

No one will now say, if there are no carbon copies available I sell my printer and buy GW plastic again

Just because internet warriors tell people that all models outside GW are ugly and not detailed enough for wargaming does mean this is the case in real life

And other artists also try to be better than GW, but of course if the cheapest available model is the carbon copy but unless like in other cases you are told it is ok to buy rip offs because GW Evil and everyone else worse, why should you look for different and more expensive ones

Again, I think that's just a bit of a stretch.

People who want cheap GW models enough to go to the effort of 3D printing them or getting recasts aren't necessarily just going to turn around and buy some other random models because they can't buy the GW ones cheaply enough.

I'd contend that the people buying GW alternatives would continue doing so regardless of the availability of "pirate" GW models.... and people who don't buy GW alternatives would continue not doing so. If they liked and wanted those models they'd be buying them already.

Like, your argument is kind of akin to that old argument of equating downloaded music to lost sales for the publisher... except you're taking it a step further and saying downloaded music is hurting some random indy artist that didn't even make the music that people wanted in the first place

this is a very different topic

but yes, pirating music and movies is a bigger problem for indy music and films rather than for big publishers

small bands depend much more on live music and than before, while even earn nothing via official streaming sites in some countries (like Germany were the share of income you get from streaming sites is not calculated on how often people click on your music but how popular your band is in the charts, while you still have to pay a fee per click) and indy films that cannot make their money back in the box office have no chance to do so on home media now

but yes it goes into the same range, you don't want to spend money on a corporation, so you go the concert of the local cover band instead


but if people want GW models, than they should buy from GW
if you just want models to play 40k, support other artists
same if you want the new Album from a specific Band, buy it
if you just want some Rock/Metal/HipHop support other Artists

 kodos wrote:
this is a very different topic

but yes, pirating music and movies is a bigger problem for indy music and films rather than for big publishers

small bands depend much more on live music and than before, while even earn nothing via official streaming sites in some countries (like Germany were the share of income you get from streaming sites is not calculated on how often people click on your music but how popular your band is in the charts, while you still have to pay a fee per click) and indy films that cannot make their money back in the box office have no chance to do so on home media now

but yes it goes into the same range, you don't want to spend money on a corporation, so you go the concert of the local cover band instead

I think you're just reaching based on some very tenuous assumptions. The idea that someone who would get a pirate GW model but can't, would instead buy a completely different product from some small time artist, umm, yeah, that's a stretch to me. I'm not going to say people like that don't exist, but that they form a meaningful portion of the market, naaah, pull the other one.

I reckon if people want (or do not want) models from an small time artist, they'll do it regardless of the availability of recast / scanned GW models. Especially when we're talking about 3D printing models, if someone has invested in 3D printing then they're already pretty deeply invested in the hobby.

If anything, on their hunt to find scans of GW models they'll be exposed to a lot of the alternatives they wouldn't have otherwise found and can make the decision to buy those models if they want them.

but if people want GW models, than they should buy from GW
if you just want models to play 40k, support other artists
same if you want the new Album from a specific Band, buy it
if you just want some Rock/Metal/HipHop support other Artists

I don't disagree with that statement, but you're making the argument that someone wants some new album, like, they specifically want THAT album, but it's too expensive, so they pirate it... but if they couldn't have pirated it they would instead fish around for some indy artists and buy from them a completely unrelated album simply because it's the same genre? Yeah nah mate, don't believe you

so something like One Page Rules or PuppetsWars existing and making money should not be possible than?

because others are selling actual scans (carbon copies) of GW models for less than those 2 selling their count as 40k ranges

why are those still in buisness?
why are they still making new stuff?

everyone wants GW models for less, so they bought a 3D printer and buy copies of GW models
except maybe the majority of people know that selling 1:1 copies as 3D files (or recasts) is illegal and/or don't see the need of actual copies to play with

 kodos wrote:
so something like One Page Rules or PuppetsWars existing and making money should not be possible than?

because others are selling actual scans (carbon copies) of GW models for less than those 2 selling their count as 40k ranges

why are those still in buisness?
why are they still making new stuff?

Ummm, I don't know how anything in your post relates to what I was presenting. Maybe I'm not understanding your language because I'm not really seeing the relevance of what you're saying here.

OnePageRules and PuppetsWar sell not because they're an alternative to 1:1 copies of GW models, they sell because they're good products in and of themselves, either stuff that GW themselves don't sell or better looking alternatives to GW's models. Their customers aren't simply people who want GW models cheaper and would just get GW copies if given the opportunity, they're people who want something different to what GW is offering.

everyone wants GW models for less, so they bought a 3D printer and buy copies of GW models
except maybe the majority of people know that selling 1:1 copies as 3D files (or recasts) is illegal and/or don't see the need of actual copies to play with

I'm not sure if you're being literal or sarcastic here, but I doubt a majority of people who bought 3D printers for their wargaming needs ever had 1:1 GW copies in mind. I bought my 3D printer to get models that bear no relation to GW, or are superior to GW miniatures.

My argument was if someone wants a 1:1 copy of a GW model, but they can't get it, doesn't mean they are going to go out and buy a different model from a small time artist... I don't see how anything in your post forms a counter argument to that.

It's a gakky move of the talentless hoping for a quick buck and those trying to justify it have the morals of an alley cat simple as that.

 Rolsheen wrote:
It's a gakky move of the talentless hoping for a quick buck and those trying to justify it have the morals of an alley cat simple as that.

Norms are tricky. Today it is enforceably normal to worship monetary profits and legal minutia protecting and encouraging social constructs, also norms, that maximise profits for one’s self and co-aligned others at the expense of everyone else. Short sighted as it is, this corporate fascistic dynamic elevates sociopaths and psychopaths over generations, resulting in the pathocracy under which people are educated today and which, sadly, many seem unable to consider not defending, due perhaps to intolerance for cognitive dissonance.

I am not a defender of contemporary pathocracy. GW is not a person. Scanning and printing a model for personal use is the same as copying a cd for personal use. Scanning and printing a model for conversion, or scanning and manipulating the scanned info, are like making a mixed tape or sampling music for recomposition… as much contemporary music is produced in this way, and as there is precedent for copying music and making mix tapes yada, I have ZERO ethical qualms about doing similar with models produced by some for profit cult of norms if I see fit to do so. I might buy an extra copy of a cd, if I want to support an artist, or buy tix for an event or concert to support an artist, and so on, but I feel zero compulsion to aid GW in such a way.

Where do I draw the line, it has been asked. I answer that this is less to do with where than why. And, if this why is not obvious to you, then I wonder what it may take for you to question whatever norm you think that you are defending.

We aren't really talking about home/personal use (which can get more grey/complicated). We are specifically talking about people who aren't just scanning and printing at home, but providing scanned or otherwise copied material to others. Ergo distributing. Be it for free or for commercial trade (ergo money).


If you want to compare to a CD, yes you can copy the contents for a personal backup and even burn them to another disk (or just copy them onto your hard drive). But you can't distribute those copies.

 Overread wrote:
We aren't really talking about home/personal use (which can get more grey/complicated). We are specifically talking about people who aren't just scanning and printing at home, but providing scanned or otherwise copied material to others. Ergo distributing. Be it for free or for commercial trade (ergo money).

I reckon in a few years people will likely be able to scan models to a reasonably high quality with their phones. There's already the capability there, the quality is just a bit crap for items this small. As the software improves and cameras improve I think it'll become more viable to just scan your own models.

 jeff white wrote:

 Rolsheen wrote:
It's a gakky move of the talentless hoping for a quick buck and those trying to justify it have the morals of an alley cat simple as that.

Norms are tricky. Today it is enforceably normal to worship monetary profits and legal minutia protecting and encouraging social constructs, also norms, that maximise profits for one’s self and co-aligned others at the expense of everyone else. Short sighted as it is, this corporate fascistic dynamic elevates sociopaths and psychopaths over generations, resulting in the pathocracy under which people are educated today and which, sadly, many seem unable to consider not defending, due perhaps to intolerance for cognitive dissonance.

I am not a defender of contemporary pathocracy. GW is not a person. Scanning and printing a model for personal use is the same as copying a cd for personal use. Scanning and printing a model for conversion, or scanning and manipulating the scanned info, are like making a mixed tape or sampling music for recomposition… as much contemporary music is produced in this way, and as there is precedent for copying music and making mix tapes yada, I have ZERO ethical qualms about doing similar with models produced by some for profit cult of norms if I see fit to do so. I might buy an extra copy of a cd, if I want to support an artist, or buy tix for an event or concert to support an artist, and so on, but I feel zero compulsion to aid GW in such a way.

Where do I draw the line, it has been asked. I answer that this is less to do with where than why. And, if this why is not obvious to you, then I wonder what it may take for you to question whatever norm you think that you are defending.

Do they not fluoridate the drinking water in Portugal or something? This is the most intelligent thing I've read on Dakka in a long time.

 Hairesy wrote:
Warhammer TV or whatever they're calling it is another indication that things haven't changed at all.

What are you referring to with this?

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Hairesy wrote:
Warhammer TV or whatever they're calling it is another indication that things haven't changed at all.

What are you referring to with this?

Their TV channel they made or whatever it is, Warhammer Plus. Streaming service? I don't know that you can call it a streaming service though, kinda have to have content for that, hahaha!

 Hairesy wrote:

Spoiler:

 jeff white wrote:

 Rolsheen wrote:
It's a gakky move of the talentless hoping for a quick buck and those trying to justify it have the morals of an alley cat simple as that.

Norms are tricky. Today it is enforceably normal to worship monetary profits and legal minutia protecting and encouraging social constructs, also norms, that maximise profits for one’s self and co-aligned others at the expense of everyone else. Short sighted as it is, this corporate fascistic dynamic elevates sociopaths and psychopaths over generations, resulting in the pathocracy under which people are educated today and which, sadly, many seem unable to consider not defending, due perhaps to intolerance for cognitive dissonance.

I am not a defender of contemporary pathocracy. GW is not a person. Scanning and printing a model for personal use is the same as copying a cd for personal use. Scanning and printing a model for conversion, or scanning and manipulating the scanned info, are like making a mixed tape or sampling music for recomposition… as much contemporary music is produced in this way, and as there is precedent for copying music and making mix tapes yada, I have ZERO ethical qualms about doing similar with models produced by some for profit cult of norms if I see fit to do so. I might buy an extra copy of a cd, if I want to support an artist, or buy tix for an event or concert to support an artist, and so on, but I feel zero compulsion to aid GW in such a way.

Where do I draw the line, it has been asked. I answer that this is less to do with where than why. And, if this why is not obvious to you, then I wonder what it may take for you to question whatever norm you think that you are defending.

Do they not fluoridate the drinking water in Portugal or something? This is the most intelligent thing I've read on Dakka in a long time.

Dakka and Zerohedge, Caitlin Johnstone, Steve Kirsch, Tessa Lena… there are some gems on da webz yet… and Portugal, well, I don’t belong here, Europe as a whole is a steaming cesspool rotten under terminally corrupt “leadership” … nah, I am headed back to South Korea by way of Amsterdam in a few weeks. Korea was the best place that I ever lived. I hope that this move will be the last. Tired…

 Hairesy wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Hairesy wrote:
Warhammer TV or whatever they're calling it is another indication that things haven't changed at all.

What are you referring to with this?

Their TV channel they made or whatever it is, Warhammer Plus. Streaming service? I don't know that you can call it a streaming service though, kinda have to have content for that, hahaha!

I knew that part. I'm referring to what you think about it is an indicator "things haven't changed".

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Hairesy wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Hairesy wrote:
Warhammer TV or whatever they're calling it is another indication that things haven't changed at all.

What are you referring to with this?

Their TV channel they made or whatever it is, Warhammer Plus. Streaming service? I don't know that you can call it a streaming service though, kinda have to have content for that, hahaha!

I knew that part. I'm referring to what you think about it is an indicator "things haven't changed".

I would like to know why the controversy around Warhammer + is not an obvious indicator for you that the company has not changed.

 jeff white wrote:

 Rolsheen wrote:
It's a gakky move of the talentless hoping for a quick buck and those trying to justify it have the morals of an alley cat simple as that.

Norms are tricky. Today it is enforceably normal to worship monetary profits and legal minutia protecting and encouraging social constructs, also norms, that maximise profits for one’s self and co-aligned others at the expense of everyone else. Short sighted as it is, this corporate fascistic dynamic elevates sociopaths and psychopaths over generations, resulting in the pathocracy under which people are educated today and which, sadly, many seem unable to consider not defending, due perhaps to intolerance for cognitive dissonance.

I am not a defender of contemporary pathocracy. GW is not a person. Scanning and printing a model for personal use is the same as copying a cd for personal use. Scanning and printing a model for conversion, or scanning and manipulating the scanned info, are like making a mixed tape or sampling music for recomposition… as much contemporary music is produced in this way, and as there is precedent for copying music and making mix tapes yada, I have ZERO ethical qualms about doing similar with models produced by some for profit cult of norms if I see fit to do so. I might buy an extra copy of a cd, if I want to support an artist, or buy tix for an event or concert to support an artist, and so on, but I feel zero compulsion to aid GW in such a way.

Where do I draw the line, it has been asked. I answer that this is less to do with where than why. And, if this why is not obvious to you, then I wonder what it may take for you to question whatever norm you think that you are defending.

I often ask myself, are we at that Napster moment with 3D printing? That happened when Tower Records became irrelevant because you could download an album, for free, faster than you could drive to the store to purchase it. You might decide to buy the CD, but you're thinking you don't need to do this. Once enough people have that thought, Tower is finished as a business.

I own a Creality 3D scanner that creates extremely faithful reproductions of objects. Takes about 20 seconds to scan a miniature. Things like backpacks, extended arms in front of the body, capturing those 0.2mm fine details that get molded onto shoulderpads, etc, give it some trouble. But for > 98% of uses, it makes a great copy and printing the scan can be as simple as one push of a button.

Would I want to scan complete models and share them with the world? Dunno about that.

I'm not personally looking to bring about the end of GW, nor do I feel intellectual property is some yoke around the neck of societies. The main reason I would make a scan is for a bit, not a finished model. I wouldn't have a moral problem with sharing a scan of, say, a Chaincannon, since they're scarce and often needed for CSM armies. But I also wouldn't feel particularly motivated to distribute said file.

There's something more personal about doing a scan. Ripping a CD was impersonal, what motivated me was the fact I wanted a digital copy instead of needing to have physical medium around. It should have been available already, and I would not have done so if there was another option.

With a scan of a 3D model, it's because there's something I need and GW doesn't offer a bits service anymore. I could create a 2 part mold and make a copy in resin, or I could point a scanner at it and print it in resin. The portability of a digital file doesn't make a difference to my relationship to the copy. I don't feel like there's some broader societal need to be addressed by sharing that file with the world.

And that's about how far any of this is going to go. A big motivation behind music sharing was draconian copyright enforcement actions, obvious innovations being ignored, and other 'villian' behavior everyone could rally around. Say what you want about prices, I don't think there's going to be a widespread movement to bring GW to it's knees through illicit scans in the near future.

Which brings me to the next red flag: manipulating scans. Before GW released Heavy Intercessors, some files were going around and I took the time to inspect them. Properly sized, proportioned, suitably impressive for an important unit that has no model. The problem was the shoulder pads, which were BA, and also the poses, which advertised the fact these were scans to anyone who was familiar. So I imported the models into Blender, rigged them, changed the poses, etc.

The process was not easy. To rig a model - where it's limbs / torso / head can be rotated and posed - you need something in more primitive than a finished model. Something more like a puppet. I was able to take parts of the 5 Heavy Intercessors to create a complete, rigged version, but it took hours and not many people have the skills to do that.

The beauty of file sharing is you get what you want, immediately, often for free. The challenge of 3D scanned miniatures is you want more than you get, and getting what you want involves time and effort that requires specialized skills that are scarce in the real world.

This is the the big obstacle to 3D scans becoming a thing. I'm certain there's an audience for them and that I will run into someone who wants to brag that their entire army was scanned and printed. But this process would need some major refinements before it could achieve the simplicity and ease of file sharing in other mediums. This is an area where AI could make some huge inroads, take a look at DALL-E for an example of what I'm talking about.

OTOH, the first time GW engages in a high profile lawsuit over a scan of a rogue-trader-era bolter, I could see this becoming a movement.

 Hairesy wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Hairesy wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Hairesy wrote:
Warhammer TV or whatever they're calling it is another indication that things haven't changed at all.

What are you referring to with this?

Their TV channel they made or whatever it is, Warhammer Plus. Streaming service? I don't know that you can call it a streaming service though, kinda have to have content for that, hahaha!

I knew that part. I'm referring to what you think about it is an indicator "things haven't changed".

I would like to know why the controversy around Warhammer + is not an obvious indicator for you that the company has not changed.

You mean the moment GW decided that people making fan videos couldn't earn money from them?
Because that is just normal.

If anything the abnormal part was that GW allowed people to earn from fan videos using GW's IP for so long before GW stepped in.

Far as I'm aware fan-videos that weren't tied to a patreon or similar revenue generating system were mostly left alone. It was the ones that were earning off the IP that GW was focused on; and of them we are led to understand many were offered pay and inclusion into the Warhammer+ system. That's actually a LOT better than most major IP holders who would have cracked down years ago and would never consider allowing fan content on their official streaming services.

 Hairesy wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Hairesy wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Hairesy wrote:
Warhammer TV or whatever they're calling it is another indication that things haven't changed at all.

What are you referring to with this?

Their TV channel they made or whatever it is, Warhammer Plus. Streaming service? I don't know that you can call it a streaming service though, kinda have to have content for that, hahaha!

I knew that part. I'm referring to what you think about it is an indicator "things haven't changed".

I would like to know why the controversy around Warhammer + is not an obvious indicator for you that the company has not changed.

I'm asking you to tell me what you are referring to, specifically. I have not commented on anything about it either way. Just going "the controversy!" doesn't say anything that can actually be discussed - I know there was a controversy, but just saying that doesn't explain what you think are the specific things that suggest "the company has not changed".

The main issue for me is that Warhammer + takes all that once free fan-made content and puts it behind a paywall. And for what you get, it simply isn't worthwhile. What about Warhammer + could not have been done with White Dwarf online or Warhammer Community?

To me this is indicative that GW has acted not in the interests of the player, but in that of profit. This is in line with other decisions they have taken to maximize profit with little effort, such as power creeping every single edition (since I've been playing anyway, 6th). Formations in 7th is another good example of GW making bad decisions in pursuit of profit.

They didn't take "ALL" they took the fan made content that was earning money. Yes you could view it for free, but the creators were taking serious money in donations.

 Hairesy wrote:
The main issue for me is that Warhammer + takes all that once free fan-made content and puts it behind a paywall. And for what you get, it simply isn't worthwhile. What about Warhammer + could not have been done with White Dwarf online or Warhammer Community?

To me this is indicative that GW has acted not in the interests of the player, but in that of profit. This is in line with other decisions they have taken to maximize profit with little effort, such as power creeping every single edition (since I've been playing anyway, 6th). Formations in 7th is another good example of GW making bad decisions in pursuit of profit.

As Overread said above. But you need to get it through your head that it is a business. Of course a business puts profit first, because without profit it dies. As for whether something is worthwhile, that is completely subjective. I don't subscribe personally, as the only thing i would have an interest in is the painting tutorials. But i know a number of people who do and do find it value for money.

So yes, they do act out in the interest of profit. If you've ever been involved with the running of a business at all, you would understand that.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 Hairesy wrote:
The main issue for me is that Warhammer + takes all that once free fan-made content and puts it behind a paywall. And for what you get, it simply isn't worthwhile. What about Warhammer + could not have been done with White Dwarf online or Warhammer Community?

To me this is indicative that GW has acted not in the interests of the player, but in that of profit. This is in line with other decisions they have taken to maximize profit with little effort, such as power creeping every single edition (since I've been playing anyway, 6th). Formations in 7th is another good example of GW making bad decisions in pursuit of profit.

As Overread said above. But you need to get it through your head that it is a business. Of course a business puts profit first, because without profit it dies. As for whether something is worthwhile, that is completely subjective. I don't subscribe personally, as the only thing i would have an interest in is the painting tutorials. But i know a number of people who do and do find it value for money.

So yes, they do act out in the interest of profit. If you've ever been involved with the running of a business at all, you would understand that.

Have I been rude to you? You are implying that I am stupid because I don't agree with the consensus. I do not need to "get anything through my head", thank you. I have actually worked for myself as a carpenter, building decks, garages and doing home renos. So your claim that if I had run a business I would understand profit is ignorant at best, and an insult. Profit was never my motivation as a carpenter, it was quality. If I was purely motivated by profit I would be building at double speed and cutting corners because I don't charge by the hour. I would have paid minimum wage and hired blockheaded mules to help me. Now if I had done that, I wouldn't still have the option to do carpentry because none of my clients would have called me back or recommended me to others. By placing quality and craftsmanship (and client relationships) above profits, I have ensured continued business. If you can't understand how that is the more effective strategy then I don't know what to tell you. Now, since you've been a knob with zero provocation, I think I'll add you to the ignore list. Cheers.