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Tsagualsa wrote:

Also, and no less important, once you bought your stuff you can at least theoretically use it as often as you like and in perpetuity, and are not dependent on GW providing some sort of service or support. In practice, you still need someone to play with and a physical or digital space to set up a game, but that is pretty easy to find nowadays.

You can also use it for non-GW purposes, or to play out of print GW games. It's physical property, and likely has some value to other collectors.

I think the term "whale" has a specific connotation insofar is to be perceived as "big" you have to buy things all at once. The guy who goes all-in on the most expensive kits, dropping big cash makes a splash. You know, like a whale.

Some dude who picks up a kit every now and then is not a whale, because there's no splash.

Another difference is the craft element. Someone who buys a boxed set and then wants it professionally painted is different than someone whose enjoyment largely comes from the act of modeling and painting.

I think in the online sense, the same distinction applies. Whales buy advancement through sheer cash drops, as opposed to dedicated hobbyists who level up and get loot through game play.

I think we all see the difference between the guy who over the space of 20 years of collecting now as a considerable array of armies with large point values and the dude who buys a 10,000 point army all at once and wants someone else to paint it.

Thanks to the brave souls who watched the video and posted a summary so I wouldn't have to

Going to sound very harsh here but its best to remember that:

I am not a GW apologist.

Discounting on GW product (As with any other product or service) is an opportunistic decision made by individual business owners.

Discounters sacrificed profitability in the hope of shifting more units. It is not a benevolent act of charity

Hopefully (for their customers) they haven't been blindly following their own model on the basis that GW trade prices wouldn't go up.

The discounters are the ones 'punishing' smaller businesses.

Simple maths says that increasing your profitability allows for loss of sales (by a surprising margin - there's a simple equation but I'm a mathidiot so ill have to look it up).

Support for brick and mortar stores is known to help those sites increase profitability and or drive volume.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
*needle scratch*

Whatever you think of capitalism, company chooses to pass on rising production costs, is not a shocker. It’s not crime. It’s just…the cost of doing business.

We don’t need to endorse it. We don’t need to agree with it.

But at the end of the day, we do need to accept it, however bitter the taste.

Real life example from my real life? Last financial year, despite the place where I work exceeding target? No pay rise. This year? Doing that again to a record degree despite a lower employee headcount? 2% payrises.

Given U.K. inflation is well….at least 10%? That’s two real terms pay cuts for me, despite my best being in excess of merely adequate.

Get. Angry. At. The. Right. Thing.

Exactly this.

 Mr. Burning wrote:
Going to sound very harsh here but its best to remember that:

I am not a GW apologist.

GW has had a very fraught relationship with FLGS here in the US for a long time. This is nothing new. When they made their big push for GW stores, there were allegations that the locations were sited based on previous sales to existing retailers, many whom helped put GW on the map.

Yeah, nothing personal, just business, but there is such a thing as a positive-sum game.

I don't think Tom Kirby ever believed that, though, and he treated every discount, every channel of commerce beyond his reach - even including used games - as money that somehow rightfully belonged to GW.

The IP rights thing was funny because GW is the most derivative IP out there. I mean, they helped get started as TSR's UK licensee. I actually own a D&D dungeon authored by Kirby. Times change, I guess.

I recall articles on ICv2 15 years ago, and back then I prophesied DOOM for GW. Obviously, I was wrong, Kirby's out, some changes have been made, but old habits die hard.

 Albertorius wrote:

puree wrote:

and, in the UK, selling over RRP is actually a criminal offence

pretty sure it is not. A seller can sell at whatever price they want. It is a 'recommended' price not a maximum enforceable price.

There's some rules around products with prices printed on them, although I think that only applies so log as you don't cover them up with the new price (so you are not misleading a consumer).

Tony Quigley, Head of Trading Standards at Birmingham City Council, said: “Trading Standards is receiving a high volume of calls about businesses charging inflated prices and ‘dual pricing’. Whilst traders can charge what they want for items that are not price marked except by themselves, it is a criminal offence to charge a higher price for products that are clearly marked with a visible lower price

RRP would be that "visibly lower price", and retailers certainly don't price that themselves.

But I don't really know, maybe you're right and it's printed prices. A while back the blisters and boxes had a price bracket code, but even that would not be a "marked price" I guess?

That said, I don't exactly see retailers asking for prices over GW's RRP either way. So they'll suck up the cost or reduce their discounts, if they have. Good for GW either way, I'm sure.

No, a “visibly lower price” is one marked on the shelf or the item itself. It’s nothing to do with anyone else’s suggestions or third party prices. This is why multi-pack items such as canned drinks regularly have a price that is much lower than the cost of the pack divided by the content printed right on the can at the factory. Because they don’t want people breaking down multi-packs for resale at the regular single can price and a savvy customer will insist on the marked price as is their right. Just like you can ask them to give you the discount price even if the discount period ended, but they haven’t changed the shelf tag yet.

gungo wrote:
Isn’t the margin like 35-40% anyway.
I get what your saying but we will still be able to find online discounts at 15% which is about all I can find in the states anyway outside of store closing 40% off sales.

No. GW sells at retailers at 30% off. Or, well, did.

 Albertorius wrote:

gungo wrote:
Isn’t the margin like 35-40% anyway.
I get what your saying but we will still be able to find online discounts at 15% which is about all I can find in the states anyway outside of store closing 40% off sales.

No. GW sells at retailers at 30% off. Or, well, did.

The last time I looked into opening a store, about 5 years ago, the wholesale/retail percentage was somewhere between 43% and 47% under MSRP depending on distributor, order size, etc.

I.E. a $60 box of Primaris Infiltrators would cost me on average $33 to buy and then resell to the customer.

 TalonZahn wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

gungo wrote:
Isn’t the margin like 35-40% anyway.
I get what your saying but we will still be able to find online discounts at 15% which is about all I can find in the states anyway outside of store closing 40% off sales.

No. GW sells at retailers at 30% off. Or, well, did.

The last time I looked into opening a store, about 5 years ago, the wholesale/retail percentage was somewhere between 43% and 47% under MSRP depending on distributor, order size, etc.

I.E. a $60 box of Primaris Infiltrators would cost me on average $33 to buy and then resell to the customer.

I can't really speak for the USA. In Spain, it's 30%.

I have a theory that a lot of MBA types, coming from the world of finance (or usury as it's more correctly termed) have a habit of viewing things as a zero-sum game where there's a static pile of money, and every dollar somebody swipes out of your money pile is your loss. Because in the world of coin begetting coin, this is often the case.

They forget however they're in the business of actually making things, and that you can grow the pie, as they say, you can create new sources of revenue, you can use creativity to greatly increase your existing revenue streams. And that they live in an ecosystem where other species are actually allowing them to stay alive, rather than simply eating all the food that could be theirs. A misunderstanding on their part that leads to stupid ideas such as, "We'll squeeze out the independent stores and then we'll have all their customers and they'll pay us full MSRP!"

They had similarly stupid thoughts back when they shut down people parts selling on eBay and thinking, "Now instead of paying a couple bucks for a single piece, the customer will come to us and pay the full $100+ for the entire model to get the single piece!" Which, spoiler warning, NEVER HAPPENED.

This is the regular cycle for GW.
And regardless of what they do - raise prices frequently - blow up game systems - discontinue armies - shun fan made content, in the end it never matters.
They still dominate the market, as they have for the past 30 plus years I’ve watched them, and people still flock to their products.
Despite what they do to the customers or the retailers, hobbyists still flock to them like flies to honey.
I’ve heard the doom cycle too many times to count. No matter how high the prices get, or what they do, people will still go back to them.
Nothing changes, except the conversation around what they’re doing this week/month/year.
Their reach and influence in the miniature gaming sphere is unparalleled, and for that reason alone, they will never go down. Gamers gonna buy minis, and GW has the longest reach and deepest market penetration over any other company.

I suspect this will stop some retailers from selling scads of product. And some might even stop carrying it. But largely nothing will be different because once a GW fan, always a GW fan.

 Overread wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
The decades have shown that for every person priced out of GW's products, two people are willing to pick up their slack and buy more stuff for higher prices.

Big spenders are usually whales and people with no impulse control.

Has anyone ever seen one of these Whales?

I used to paint for one, many many years ago.

scarletsquig wrote:
Hopefully this means more alternative companies being able to find their way into indie stores as the margins on GW crumble. A lot of the time indies have to heavily compete with online to stay afloat and this will make the pressure even higher as the online stores can probably take the hit, huge warehouses full of all sorts of stuff and sometimes GW is just the draw to the rest of the store. There have been webstores running at 30% off, some at 25% currently, most at 20%. We'll probably see a drop-off to 20% as standard, free shipping thresholds rising.

I'd love somewhere local to stock Kings of War and other Mantic stuff, have even offered to do demos in my spare time, get a weekly group going, all stuff that takes time and could be a real asset.

Unlikely. Mantic has issues with retailer orders. If the issues I have dealt with are any indication, I can see why they are not more widely carried. At least in the US.

No interest, though. GW or nothing, even if I then see them constantly fire-saling GW stock (usually large big box games that flopped, like warcry, dominion, dungeonbowl, ash wastes etc. horus heresy was the only one that really made bank for indies recently).

 McDougall Designs wrote:

scarletsquig wrote:
Hopefully this means more alternative companies being able to find their way into indie stores as the margins on GW crumble. A lot of the time indies have to heavily compete with online to stay afloat and this will make the pressure even higher as the online stores can probably take the hit, huge warehouses full of all sorts of stuff and sometimes GW is just the draw to the rest of the store. There have been webstores running at 30% off, some at 25% currently, most at 20%. We'll probably see a drop-off to 20% as standard, free shipping thresholds rising.

I'd love somewhere local to stock Kings of War and other Mantic stuff, have even offered to do demos in my spare time, get a weekly group going, all stuff that takes time and could be a real asset.

Unlikely. Mantic has issues with retailer orders. If the issues I have dealt with are any indication, I can see why they are not more widely carried. At least in the US.

The stores I have seen with Mantic here in the US are clogged with stock that they barely move to maybe 1-2 regular customers. The majority of shoppers in the US, in my experience, don't want their offerings.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 McDougall Designs wrote:

scarletsquig wrote:
Hopefully this means more alternative companies being able to find their way into indie stores as the margins on GW crumble. A lot of the time indies have to heavily compete with online to stay afloat and this will make the pressure even higher as the online stores can probably take the hit, huge warehouses full of all sorts of stuff and sometimes GW is just the draw to the rest of the store. There have been webstores running at 30% off, some at 25% currently, most at 20%. We'll probably see a drop-off to 20% as standard, free shipping thresholds rising.

I'd love somewhere local to stock Kings of War and other Mantic stuff, have even offered to do demos in my spare time, get a weekly group going, all stuff that takes time and could be a real asset.

Unlikely. Mantic has issues with retailer orders. If the issues I have dealt with are any indication, I can see why they are not more widely carried. At least in the US.

The stores I have seen with Mantic here in the US are clogged with stock that they barely move to maybe 1-2 regular customers. The majority of shoppers in the US, in my experience, don't want their offerings.

That's partly due to the quality issues with plastics they have dealt with historically.

 McDougall Designs wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 McDougall Designs wrote:

scarletsquig wrote:
Hopefully this means more alternative companies being able to find their way into indie stores as the margins on GW crumble. A lot of the time indies have to heavily compete with online to stay afloat and this will make the pressure even higher as the online stores can probably take the hit, huge warehouses full of all sorts of stuff and sometimes GW is just the draw to the rest of the store. There have been webstores running at 30% off, some at 25% currently, most at 20%. We'll probably see a drop-off to 20% as standard, free shipping thresholds rising.

I'd love somewhere local to stock Kings of War and other Mantic stuff, have even offered to do demos in my spare time, get a weekly group going, all stuff that takes time and could be a real asset.

Unlikely. Mantic has issues with retailer orders. If the issues I have dealt with are any indication, I can see why they are not more widely carried. At least in the US.

The stores I have seen with Mantic here in the US are clogged with stock that they barely move to maybe 1-2 regular customers. The majority of shoppers in the US, in my experience, don't want their offerings.

That's partly due to the quality issues with plastics they have dealt with historically.

I had originally written "sub-par offerings" but felt it might be a bit harsh towards people that like their stuff for whatever reason.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

Simple maths says that increasing your profitability allows for loss of sales (by a surprising margin - there's a simple equation but I'm a mathidiot so ill have to look it up).

Loss of sales is near total. You retain some loyal customers out of habit and you retain any walk in customer if you have a brick and mortar store. However nearly all online sales go to the storefront that has the lowest price after P&P.

I always chuckle when I think back to when GW tried to muscle in on a local shop by setting up just a few blocks south, failed to drum up enough business, and had to close shop.

Then another company tried the same thing a few years later, just a few blocks north this time, and that one failed once more.

There was a third store that tried setting up near this same local shop, but at least they eventually moved a bit farther away and seem to have a pretty stable location now.

Anecdotally, I went to a semi local place on Black Friday, as they usually do some steep discounts on GW, but not many people seemed overtly interested- I did overhear quite a few people gripe about the discount still not being enough to counterbalance the prices. Saw a lot of Bolt Action, Flames of War, and more RPG focused figures (Reaper & Wizkids) when it came to people making gaming purchases.

Personally I hope it gives smaller companies a chance to get their feet back in the door of the indie shops. It wasn't that many years ago that Privateer seemed to dominate the local areas, and now it's pretty much a footnote on the deep discount tables.
Wasn't the pricing issues what originally led to things like the Start Collecting boxes and Warhammer Underworlds becoming more of an entry level purchase, or is that me just misremembering?

 Platuan4th wrote:

I had originally written "sub-par offerings" but felt it might be a bit harsh towards people that like their stuff for whatever reason.

I got the halflings vs orcs kit last year and oh boy are the orc torsos VERY plastic-blobby for detail in areas. Absolutely fine for rank and file cool mandollies using the 3ft rule, but compared to GW stuff I can see why they could be considered crap.

[Also a general note to all, trim your damned forum quotes people! Find the end square bracket on the first line indicating the user you're quoting, then delete everything down to the actual post you're quoting ]

Our local game club has rooms in our LGS. While the club pays some money for rent, we are still dependent on the existence of the store for the club to exist, mostly because rent is so high in german cities that it is barely affordable to get club space rented anywhere else. Since Corona many customers stayed away, people got used to buy stuff online because the shops were closed for a long time. GW lowering the profit on boxes for retail makes this situation even worse. Current inflation is just adding up to the issue.

So yeah, this new money grab by GW hits my mood hard.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

Simple maths says that increasing your profitability allows for loss of sales (by a surprising margin - there's a simple equation but I'm a mathidiot so ill have to look it up).

Loss of sales is near total. You retain some loyal customers out of habit and you retain any walk in customer if you have a brick and mortar store. However nearly all online sales go to the storefront that has the lowest price after P&P.

Of course. For those online retailers.

In general there are ways of sustaining profitability - thinking of GW product in this instance - for B&M locations who are not reliant on shifting piles of stock.

Its very tough at the moment. 5%+ on top of other rising costs maybe the straw that broke the camels back.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
Our local game club has rooms in our LGS. While the club pays some money for rent, we are still dependent on the existence of the store for the club to exist, mostly because rent is so high in german cities that it is barely affordable to get club space rented anywhere else. Since Corona many customers stayed away, people got used to buy stuff online because the shops were closed for a long time. GW lowering the profit on boxes for retail makes this situation even worse. Current inflation is just adding up to the issue.

So yeah, this new money grab by GW hits my mood hard.

Discounters have lowered the profit expectation for independent sector for the last decade or so.

GW CAN and SHOULD be offering more in the way of marketing and support for B&M stores with gaming space.

So, many retailers offer free shipping over £75ish in the UK, with wayland off the top of my head offering free over £20, though they do have a mostly lower discount rate than most. I assume wayland may raise their minimum order for shipping.

However if prices do come closer to RRP of GW, I wonder how many people will actually switch to doing small orders with GW (as opposed to having to buy more products to hit the free shipping totals with third parties).

So if Wayland raise their free shipping, to say £35-40. Could people buy more direct from GW for say, a paint order, or just one box. GW is free shipping over £20.

I would guess GW may raise their free shipping charge as well, with their costs going up, having to pay labour on packing, shipping cost in general, utility costs, website maintenance, business processes costs etc. It may not actually make them that much more money in the end, as if consumers go away from FLGS's and online FLGS's, and switch to consuming via GW direct, the logistics and costs that could involve could mean any increase in profit is negligible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, and a point others have alluded to, spending power of consumers is going to reduce. The given that for every 1 person leaving the hobby, there are two to replace them will not hold water.

I've bought cadia stands and I don't perceive me buying a single model until maybe games day from now on - like most, I have a pile to be working on, and have mostly moved away from citadel paints so they will be going from directly, or indirectly taking £100 (via FLGS) to £200 (direct purchases) just from myself per month to mostly zero for the next 6 months. Let's assume the next killteam box is something I want, then that will be the one £100ish they will get out of me, but that is much lower than 600-1200 over a similar time period in the last few years.

On top of that, with the amount of hobbyists leaving, or reducing their collects it seems - Facebook marketplace groups are rife with it currently - there are many more in a similar or more dire situation than myself and they don't make a penny on a second hand sale.

I do think there is a legitimately possibility GW will start making more discount boxes, or bundle deals to keep people in the hobby in the short term. Actually, I've been waiting for the mystery boxes to come back around again, I would buy one of them at least.

Just note that FB groups increasing with secondhand sales is not just a factor of people giving up or forced to leave the hobby due to financial pressures (which is very much on the rise); but also because many are abandoning ebay since with Facebook the only fee you typically have is the 3% Paypal fee; whilst with Ebay there are multiple other fees.


Of course ebay you can cross your fingers that a bidding war starts and your product sells for more and it does tend to get more attention than FB groups so you potentially cna sell things faster.

 Ghool wrote:
This is the regular cycle for GW.
And regardless of what they do - raise prices frequently - blow up game systems - discontinue armies - shun fan made content, in the end it never matters.
They still dominate the market, as they have for the past 30 plus years I’ve watched them, and people still flock to their products.
Despite what they do to the customers or the retailers, hobbyists still flock to them like flies to honey.
I’ve heard the doom cycle too many times to count. No matter how high the prices get, or what they do, people will still go back to them.
Nothing changes, except the conversation around what they’re doing this week/month/year.

I'm generally in agreement with you, but there are some differences this time around. For one thing, we've not had inflation like this in a very long time, so gauging its impact is difficult. Will rising core survival needs crush hobbies, or will people try to hang onto a slice of fun?

The other thing is the demographic collapse of the West. There are just less little kids to hit their teen years and buy a starter box. College enrollment is collapsing because there are less college-age students and universities are struggling as a result.

Now maybe those fewer kids will be more affluent per capita so they'll have the buying power of whales, but since gaming is also a social activity, they may also have a harder time finding players in a lot of environments. I have no idea, I just know that cycles repeat until they don't.

The advertising that be that ineffective, we are talking about it.

Does anyone buy direct from GW any more?

It just seems to me that more or less the day I realised I could get stuff 20-25% cheaper, any direct purchases ceased. Its a massive discount.

GW could try and fight this (i.e. spend £100, get 10% off or something) - but to my knowledge they never have.

If the stores cut the discount by 5%, I'm still going to buy from them over GW.

Plenty of people buy direct from GW.

First up there's all the people that walk into the their local shop to buy. Even if you're aware of online discount stores many will still go and buy local because it helps support the local store. This is especially true if the store offers play/paint stations and support, but can also be if the store is also supporting local clubs (even if its just somewhere to advertise the club and get members to know the club exists).


After that even though the Pandemic got more people online, many don't buy from anywhere that isn't the "official named" store for a product. So even though there are discount stores, some people just won't "risk" using them and will stick to the official channels. Or their googling will have them only take the top one or two results etc.... So they basically aren't shopping around.


Then you can throw in bad experiences, which these days can even be postage taking more than 7 days to arrive; as reasons for people not using certain stores and the like.




We've not even touched upon limited stock items where discount stores might sell out faster than the GW main site; or where limited stock means that hte GW store ends up being one the last places to have active stock of an item

I buy paints and books (novels not rules) from my local GW but that's because I've been going to it and the previous location for many years and the team there are good eggs.

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
.
So if Wayland raise their free shipping, to say £35-40. Could people buy more direct from GW for say, a paint order, or just one box. GW is free shipping over £20.

I would guess GW may raise their free shipping charge as well, with their costs going up, having to pay labour on packing, shipping cost in general, utility costs, website maintenance, business processes costs etc. It may not actually make them that much more money in the end, as if consumers go away from FLGS's and online FLGS's, and switch to consuming via GW direct, the logistics and costs that could involve could mean any increase in profit is negligible.

GW free postage is already back to £40

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Delivery

A point that I think has been missed is that it's allegedly an *average* increase of 5.8%, so some items could realistically be 10-15% higher if others are lower.

We also don't know how the average was determined - number of SKUs or price?

But I haven't seen a breakdown of the pricing changes yet, has anyone seen any more details?