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I'm not sure why anyone would be making the argument that GW has to do away with Firstborn Marines because of the need to sell Primaris marines.

The decision to make Primaris marines was GW's own. Nobody stepped in and told them they had to create an entirely new line of Marines. They chose to do that.

The first 'Firstborn' was sold, I think, in 1986. GW has been making new Space Marine models for thirty years before producing a Primaris space marine. They did new models. They added new weapons. They revised the armor. They increased the size of the model. They introduced new units. They did all that and Space Marines were the big draw the whole damn time, without introducing 'new marines' that obligated them to retire certain types of 'old marines'. They retired models, and molds, and even units (like Space Marines on Jetbikes).

GW chose to release new marine models as some new, better, previously unseen variant of Marines that wasn't backwards compatible with loads of the space marine armory. They could have released Mk 8 armor. They could have released Mk 8 and Mk 9 and Mk 10 armor, just like they released Mk 6 armor, then later released Mk 7. They could have released larger scaled marines just like they had done repeatedly over the course of the company's existence. They chose not to do that. They chose to launch a model refresh that necessitated retiring swathes of their model line.

You don't get to justify GW's choice to retire certain marines after releasing Primaris as 'well, they have to do this after the release of Primaris marines when GW was the one who chose to release them. If I choose to drive my car up on the sidewalk, I can't explain away hitting the streetlamp by saying "Well, it was that or hit those pedestrians..."

I don't personally have any issues with playing games that use Legends, so it doesn't have a lot of effect on me---I take that back.

I have had to slog through pages of interminable writing, from one author after another, addressing ad nauseum, the 'in-universe' consequences of the Primaris initiative, whether that author really wanted to address that in their novel or not. Now, I'm presumably going to have to slog through many perfectly fine BL authors having to explain why all of a sudden, there's no jet fuel for the Jump packs, and no run-flat tires for normal Space Marine bikes, and why all the scouts now have this sort of armor rather than that sort. Ugh.

Well said!

I was running my Vanguard Veteran squad as assault marines because they no longer have an option for twin lightning claws. So if I have models with jump packs and twin lightning claws, what am I supposed to run them as?

A space marine officer with a jump pack?

Warp Talons.

Toofast wrote:
I was running my Vanguard Veteran squad as assault marines because they no longer have an option for twin lightning claws. So if I have models with jump packs and twin lightning claws, what am I supposed to run them as?

Run them as Vanguard Veterans. They all have Bolt Pistols and Heriloom Weapons regardless of what the model is showing.

And yes, GW should be embarrassed to have published the VV datacard.

Remember, kiddos! You will like Primaris, you will love buy their models, you will worship their lore, you will forget about firstborn, and GW's gonna make sure of that!

Da Butcha wrote:
I'm not sure why anyone would be making the argument that GW has to do away with Firstborn Marines because of the need to sell Primaris marines.

The decision to make Primaris marines was GW's own. Nobody stepped in and told them they had to create an entirely new line of Marines. They chose to do that.

I may have told them to do that. I wasn't buying new kits unless I really liked the new kit over the old kit for reasons.

The first 'Firstborn' was sold, I think, in 1986. GW has been making new Space Marine models for thirty years before producing a Primaris space marine. They did new models. They added new weapons. They revised the armor. They increased the size of the model. They introduced new units. They did all that and Space Marines were the big draw the whole damn time, without introducing 'new marines' that obligated them to retire certain types of 'old marines'. They retired models, and molds, and even units (like Space Marines on Jetbikes).

GW chose to release new marine models as some new, better, previously unseen variant of Marines that wasn't backwards compatible with loads of the space marine armory. They could have released Mk 8 armor. They could have released Mk 8 and Mk 9 and Mk 10 armor, just like they released Mk 6 armor, then later released Mk 7. They could have released larger scaled marines just like they had done repeatedly over the course of the company's existence. They chose not to do that. They chose to launch a model refresh that necessitated retiring swathes of their model line.

They did release MK 8 armor. I assume it was a business decision. They'd reached saturation for what a new kit could do. This move was (almost) entirely to replace the whole kit and kaboodle with new minis. I'm kind of shocked they openly suggested proxying the old ones, but I guess that's low risk for them. People will hate running Firstborn as Primaris as the size difference can be jarring. That's why I think GW will be stupid enough to drag their feet on the Terminator Variant Kits now that they just changed the scale on them.

You don't get to justify GW's choice to retire certain marines after releasing Primaris as 'well, they have to do this after the release of Primaris marines when GW was the one who chose to release them. If I choose to drive my car up on the sidewalk, I can't explain away hitting the streetlamp by saying "Well, it was that or hit those pedestrians..."

I don't personally have any issues with playing games that use Legends, so it doesn't have a lot of effect on me---I take that back.

I have had to slog through pages of interminable writing, from one author after another, addressing ad nauseum, the 'in-universe' consequences of the Primaris initiative, whether that author really wanted to address that in their novel or not. Now, I'm presumably going to have to slog through many perfectly fine BL authors having to explain why all of a sudden, there's no jet fuel for the Jump packs, and no run-flat tires for normal Space Marine bikes, and why all the scouts now have this sort of armor rather than that sort. Ugh.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:

Toofast wrote:
I was running my Vanguard Veteran squad as assault marines because they no longer have an option for twin lightning claws. So if I have models with jump packs and twin lightning claws, what am I supposed to run them as?

Run them as Vanguard Veterans. They all have Bolt Pistols and Heriloom Weapons regardless of what the model is showing.

And yes, GW should be embarrassed to have published the VV datacard.

They can still swap the pistol. Because if there's anything you picked Vanguard Vets with Jump Packs for, it was the pistol.

 alextroy wrote:

Toofast wrote:
I was running my Vanguard Veteran squad as assault marines because they no longer have an option for twin lightning claws. So if I have models with jump packs and twin lightning claws, what am I supposed to run them as?

Run them as Vanguard Veterans. They all have Bolt Pistols and Heriloom Weapons regardless of what the model is showing.

And yes, GW should be embarrassed to have published the VV datacard.

Somehow I don't think that's going to fly at a GT, which is what I'm currently painting this army up for. In casual games I can use them but that doesn't mean much to me.

Toofast wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

Toofast wrote:
I was running my Vanguard Veteran squad as assault marines because they no longer have an option for twin lightning claws. So if I have models with jump packs and twin lightning claws, what am I supposed to run them as?

Run them as Vanguard Veterans. They all have Bolt Pistols and Heriloom Weapons regardless of what the model is showing.

And yes, GW should be embarrassed to have published the VV datacard.

Somehow I don't think that's going to fly at a GT, which is what I'm currently painting this army up for. In casual games I can use them but that doesn't mean much to me.

That should 100% fly at a GT if they're the official models or clearly converted to be, its not your fault the choice doesn't exist.

 Insectum7 wrote:

TinyLegions wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Eff GW.

I love my Land Speeders, Bikes, Assault Squads, Scouts, etc.

Happy to still be able to use Tacs and Devs, but it's particularly eggregious to retire Assault Squads if those are sticking around.

Eff Primaris and their horsedung.

My sentiments exactly. I have been looking for dreads, both bikes and Land Speeders for months, and they drop this! Their updates have been underwhelming for me since the Ork update, so I guess that I am going to look at other options. My 3D printing just entered into a new dimension. I was just working on terrain, but now?

Out of curiosity I popped by my FLGS to see if they had any more Assault Squads. They said they had 4 up until their retirement was announced, and they were gone by the end of that day. They apologized for not having any more to sell, and not being able to get more.

Then they suggested 3d printing my own if I wanted more. . My FLGS knows wassup.

Great minds think alike I guess. I expect that in the next few years the FLGS will have a 3D printing service in house if they want to survive. I guess that you and I will be hanging around in the Old Edition thread a lot more:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/789567.page

On a more general note, Gee Dubs still have all of these up as "Last Time to Buy" for about two weeks and all of them still show as being sold out here in the US. Why even bother with putting them up as a last chance to buy when they don't even have them available for sale? I would rather have them rip off the band aid and just say that they are no longer selling them.

Dudeface wrote:

Toofast wrote:
Somehow I don't think that's going to fly at a GT, which is what I'm currently painting this army up for. In casual games I can use them but that doesn't mean much to me.

That should 100% fly at a GT if they're the official models or clearly converted to be, its not your fault the choice doesn't exist.

My experience has been that formal tournaments don't have a lot of sympathy for models rendered useless or obsolete. Churn is the name of the game.

See also: Being required to rebase old models to whatever is current, even though the rules themselves don't say anything about base size, and appropriate base sizes aren't even defined for many units.

 catbarf wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Toofast wrote:
Somehow I don't think that's going to fly at a GT, which is what I'm currently painting this army up for. In casual games I can use them but that doesn't mean much to me.

That should 100% fly at a GT if they're the official models or clearly converted to be, its not your fault the choice doesn't exist.

My experience has been that formal tournaments don't have a lot of sympathy for models rendered useless or obsolete. Churn is the name of the game.

See also: Being required to rebase old models to whatever is current, even though the rules themselves don't say anything about base size, and appropriate base sizes aren't even defined for many units.

I suspect they have more so when GW themselves say use Assault Marines as Vanguard Vets.

Toofast wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

Toofast wrote:
I was running my Vanguard Veteran squad as assault marines because they no longer have an option for twin lightning claws. So if I have models with jump packs and twin lightning claws, what am I supposed to run them as?

Run them as Vanguard Veterans. They all have Bolt Pistols and Heriloom Weapons regardless of what the model is showing.

And yes, GW should be embarrassed to have published the VV datacard.

Somehow I don't think that's going to fly at a GT, which is what I'm currently painting this army up for. In casual games I can use them but that doesn't mean much to me.

Well that's gw's official stance. How much own house rules that gt has then? And why they pretend to run 40k tournament when it's not pure 40k then?

Dudeface wrote:

Toofast wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

Toofast wrote:
I was running my Vanguard Veteran squad as assault marines because they no longer have an option for twin lightning claws. So if I have models with jump packs and twin lightning claws, what am I supposed to run them as?

Run them as Vanguard Veterans. They all have Bolt Pistols and Heriloom Weapons regardless of what the model is showing.

And yes, GW should be embarrassed to have published the VV datacard.

Somehow I don't think that's going to fly at a GT, which is what I'm currently painting this army up for. In casual games I can use them but that doesn't mean much to me.

That should 100% fly at a GT if they're the official models or clearly converted to be, its not your fault the choice doesn't exist.

WYSIWYG means that a model equipped with an heirloom weapon and bolt pistol would have a lightning claw on 1 arm and a bolt pistol on the other. I don't feel like sticking them in the freezer to break an arm off and separate the shoulder pad. GW said "you can use them as vanguard vets now". GW did not say "a lightning claw now counts as a bolt pistol".

Toofast wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Toofast wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

Toofast wrote:
I was running my Vanguard Veteran squad as assault marines because they no longer have an option for twin lightning claws. So if I have models with jump packs and twin lightning claws, what am I supposed to run them as?

Run them as Vanguard Veterans. They all have Bolt Pistols and Heriloom Weapons regardless of what the model is showing.

And yes, GW should be embarrassed to have published the VV datacard.

Somehow I don't think that's going to fly at a GT, which is what I'm currently painting this army up for. In casual games I can use them but that doesn't mean much to me.

That should 100% fly at a GT if they're the official models or clearly converted to be, its not your fault the choice doesn't exist.

WYSIWYG means that a model equipped with an heirloom weapon and bolt pistol would have a lightning claw on 1 arm and a bolt pistol on the other. I don't feel like sticking them in the freezer to break an arm off and separate the shoulder pad. GW said "you can use them as vanguard vets now". GW did not say "a lightning claw now counts as a bolt pistol".

If you can find a TO that won't allow them to run as heirloom weapon and boltpistol I'd be amazed. It's the base loadout and given 2 melee weapons literally isn't an option you're forced to default back to the base gear unless otherwise noted.

Toofast wrote:

WYSIWYG means that a model equipped with an heirloom weapon and bolt pistol would have a lightning claw on 1 arm and a bolt pistol on the other. I don't feel like sticking them in the freezer to break an arm off and separate the shoulder pad. GW said "you can use them as vanguard vets now". GW did not say "a lightning claw now counts as a bolt pistol".

Bolt Pistols are easily the most common piece of equipment that models carry but don't have on their model. That's going to be just fine.