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2023/08/17 07:14:10
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
Right but the Imperium isn't honest about, well anything.
Factorum workers are told by their priests that they exist to do the work they are doing in the name of the God Emperor. They're told they shouldn't rebel or hate the Planetary Governor because they're the chosen representative of the God Emperor.
Rebelling against the Governor is as if they were rebelling against the Emperor himself.
The Imperium lies to its soldiers with propaganda about its foes and its only those who have survived wars that get sceptical about the lies, which in turn leads some to turning against the Imperium.
The very core of the Imperial state religion is built on worship of a being who sought to eradicate religion and its primary creed was written by the first Primarch to fall to Chaos.
Even the whole "Hate the Xenos, the Mutant, and the Heretic" is a pile of nonsense. The Imperium uses Psykers to navigate its ships, for interstellar communication and as soldiers across various forces. It studies Xenos technology and uses it often. And a Heretic is just whoever the Ecclesiarchy happens to hate at a given time.
The only time the Imperium tells the truth is when it tells Guardsmen they're going to die for the Emperor.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/08/17 07:20:07
2023/08/17 08:03:55
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
Just because they are "nice" while doing it doesn't change that it is genocide.
No, for it to count as genocide they'd have to be destroying the *entire* Imperial Faith. None of what you described applies to what the Tau are actually doing.
Don't misrepresent what I said. I never said the Imperium were 'good' guys. Everybody in 40k is bad. But they are my chosen protagonists so I'll root for them above all else, if for nothing other than they are the only reason humanity isn't extinct.
I'm not misrepresenting what you said, it's just that what you said is hypocritical. Why is it ok to attack Abaddon based on what he might do but not a member of the Imperium?
Moreover, unironically rooting for the Imperium is missing the point, morally and narratively. Also, the Imperium didn't really save humanity - it's just ensured an eternity of subjugation and oppression for humanity. Even if the emperor fell down a flight of stairs and broke his neck before making the Primarchs, there'd still be humans.
No, the conclusion is that since non-human sentient creatures are not human it is not automatically morally wrong to be cruel to them or even wipe them out. Its not automatically a good thing either. Its just a thing. Possibly even a necessary thing.
That conclusion doesn't follow from its premises. At all.
Yes, but not everybody sees it that way. There are some very militant animal rights people out there. Or just some religious beliefs where there is no line drawn between humans and animals. They are a minority for a reason, but it is still a thing.
The same reasons you can justify this is the same logic that might lead someone to not classify aliens as having the same moral equivalence to humans as we do with each other.
No, because almost all people think that the capacity for self-awareness and intelligence is a key part of why hunting other humans for food is wrong.
Is it? Some parts of it for sure. Others not so much. My personal view is that insidious plans hidden under a guise of good intentions are far worse than something which is honest about how bad it is.
T'au are still bad and evil by our modern standards. Imperium is bad and evil by modern standards too.
The Imperium is even less honest than the Tau. What's more, your claim - that the Imperium is honest - is based around the idea that you *want* the Imperium to be justified in its actions, not that you think they *are*. That's very dishonest on your part, and trying to come up with reasons why the Imperium are the unironic good guys for killing baby aliens (and baby humans) doesn't speak to your character.
2023/08/17 09:44:19
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
Just because they are "nice" while doing it doesn't change that it is genocide.
No, for it to count as genocide they'd have to be destroying the *entire* Imperial Faith. None of what you described applies to what the Tau are actually doing.
Don't misrepresent what I said. I never said the Imperium were 'good' guys. Everybody in 40k is bad. But they are my chosen protagonists so I'll root for them above all else, if for nothing other than they are the only reason humanity isn't extinct.
I'm not misrepresenting what you said, it's just that what you said is hypocritical. Why is it ok to attack Abaddon based on what he might do but not a member of the Imperium?
Moreover, unironically rooting for the Imperium is missing the point, morally and narratively. Also, the Imperium didn't really save humanity - it's just ensured an eternity of subjugation and oppression for humanity. Even if the emperor fell down a flight of stairs and broke his neck before making the Primarchs, there'd still be humans.
No, the conclusion is that since non-human sentient creatures are not human it is not automatically morally wrong to be cruel to them or even wipe them out. Its not automatically a good thing either. Its just a thing. Possibly even a necessary thing.
That conclusion doesn't follow from its premises. At all.
Yes, but not everybody sees it that way. There are some very militant animal rights people out there. Or just some religious beliefs where there is no line drawn between humans and animals. They are a minority for a reason, but it is still a thing.
The same reasons you can justify this is the same logic that might lead someone to not classify aliens as having the same moral equivalence to humans as we do with each other.
No, because almost all people think that the capacity for self-awareness and intelligence is a key part of why hunting other humans for food is wrong.
Is it? Some parts of it for sure. Others not so much. My personal view is that insidious plans hidden under a guise of good intentions are far worse than something which is honest about how bad it is.
T'au are still bad and evil by our modern standards. Imperium is bad and evil by modern standards too.
The Imperium is even less honest than the Tau. What's more, your claim - that the Imperium is honest - is based around the idea that you *want* the Imperium to be justified in its actions, not that you think they *are*. That's very dishonest on your part, and trying to come up with reasons why the Imperium are the unironic good guys for killing baby aliens (and baby humans) doesn't speak to your character.
I'm just a tad confused about why this is as hostile as it is. Are you suggesting Tau or good guys?
Like I just don't get why this is turned into some debate.
It doesn't really matter, 40k is a horrible place to live and everyone and everything is rubbish.
As for Black Templars. The point of them is to show the fierce blade that is honour and allegience without fault to the imperium.
Remember 40k is still a fantasy setting.
Blood Angels - Space Vampires
Necrons - Space Undead
Thousand Sons - Space Egyptians
Grey Knights - Space Wizards
Orks - Space Orcs
Aeldari - Space Elves
Votaan - Space Dwarves.
Black Templars - Space Crusaders
Dark Angels - Space Knights
Their themes match their fantasy counterparts still. Things are in space but their source is still very much based in traditional fantasy.
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2023/08/17 09:55:53
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
Soon enough you'll be called a fetching fascist and the cause of plague and bad harvests for being benighted and not calling the Imperium the greater satan of 40k, and if you try to explain your point if view, you'll have put the finger in the cogs and see why it all went out of hand lol.
40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard/ Space marines
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.
"The Dakka Dive Bar is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure you might not find a good amasec but they grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for ratlings being thrown through windows and you'll be alright." Ciaphas Cain, probably.
2023/08/17 10:01:25
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
Black Templars are a beautifully simple concept executed nearly perfectly. One of the better chapters imo because there isn't much of an attempt made by GW to humanize them. They revel in their own rigidity and absurdity which is kinda the whole point of 40k.
2023/08/17 10:36:44
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
I'd beg to differ, the black templar are far from absurd and make other chapters seem absurd.
They don't use poorly trained initiates for important intelligence gathering operations like recon. Instead they put them at the front of the battle line to soak up as much battle experience as they can get .
Secondly they have a dedicated guy who has the best gear and is the professional arse kicker. Other chapters give this role to their captain/force commanders, which is dumb as a secularisation here means the commander can focus on his job, making sure all the lads are in position, that forces are composed properly and supplied to best enable them to have the best chances of sucsessfully charging the enemy and hacking them to bits, whilst the champion can focus on his his task, hacking them to bits.
Thirdly, their chapter is absolutely at all times getting the good work done. You know, like the entire purpose of the creation of the spacemarines. Unlike other chapters **Cough** Dark Angels**Cough** Ultramarines *Cought* that constantly have large portions of their chapter essentially on home duty, or protecting their own interests, rather than actually fighting the enemies of the imperium.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/08/17 11:50:22
Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people[a] in whole or in part. In 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group." These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or perceived membership of a group, not randomly.
Any action which is intended to destroy a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group is Genocide.
This can be accomplished by killing, but it is not the only way. You can brainwash individuals, prevent them from passing their culture, way of life, etc... onto the next generations. This latter is what the T'au are doing to the different species who join them. They deliberately attempt to erase their prior political, social, and cultural identities and turn them into good little citizens of the Greater Good.
Just because they are "nice" while doing it doesn't change that it is genocide.
Genuine question: where in the lore do we see the Tau destroying the cultures of species that join the Empire? As far as I can tell, Kroot maintain essentially the same cultural practices within the Empire and out of it. This is despite such practices being pretty horrible to most species including the Tau (cannibalism and eating the corpses of enemies).
No, intelligence has a lot to do with it.
Yes, but not everybody sees it that way. There are some very militant animal rights people out there. Or just some religious beliefs where there is no line drawn between humans and animals. They are a minority for a reason, but it is still a thing.
The same reasons you can justify this is the same logic that might lead someone to not classify aliens as having the same moral equivalence to humans as we do with each other.
If intelligence (broadly speaking) didn't matter, I think they would struggle with killing plants or washing hands and killing micro-organisms.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/08/17 14:26:28
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
2023/08/17 20:21:40
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
I'm just a tad confused about why this is as hostile as it is. Are you suggesting Tau or good guys?
Like I just don't get why this is turned into some debate.
It doesn't really matter, 40k is a horrible place to live and everyone and everything is rubbish.
I'm saying they're better than the Imperium, which is accurate. And Grey Templar is implying that the Imperium is more virtuous than the Tau, which is incorrect and calls his motives into question.
It *does* matter because there are people who unironically stan the Imperium.
2023/08/17 21:40:24
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
Oh no, watch out, you're going to trigger the inner antifa inside him and he's going to go full keyboard warrior on you saying you're all the isms under the sun for the evil that is thought crime as if that's going to change your mind somehow.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/08/17 21:59:34
2023/08/17 22:10:16
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
The Tau empire is better than the imperium because it's not in decline. And it's not filled with humans that will occasionally go crazy, form cults and butcher their neighbours.
And it has not had other species go crazy and try to annihilate it from the inside out in the past.
Although with them apparently ever encroaching into imperial space one can think that yeah, with the increasing threat of chaos interference and incursion because of higher concentrations of humans within the empire one day the Tau might exterminate humans on sight rather than try to intergrate them.
Hecaton wrote: I'm saying they're better than the Imperium, which is accurate. And Grey Templar is implying that the Imperium is more virtuous than the Tau, which is incorrect and calls his motives into question.
It *does* matter because there are people who unironically stan the Imperium.
The fact that people are seriously, non-ironically arguing that the Tau are actually "Good Guys" is proof that they have no place in 40k.
The fact that we have chuds in here who literally are so afraid of Space Communists that they have to defend the merits of Space Nazis is why we had the "You're not Welcome here" post by GW.
2023/08/17 23:04:15
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
Hecaton wrote: I'm saying they're better than the Imperium, which is accurate. And Grey Templar is implying that the Imperium is more virtuous than the Tau, which is incorrect and calls his motives into question.
It *does* matter because there are people who unironically stan the Imperium.
The fact that people are seriously, non-ironically arguing that the Tau are actually "Good Guys" is proof that they have no place in 40k.
QED.
Are you parsing what I'm saying correctly? Or are you just willfully misinterpreting it to make a point?
And it has not had other species go crazy and try to annihilate it from the inside out in the past.
Didn't happen. It's like the WWI era myth that Germany was betrayed by disloyal Jews. There were always orks etc causing problems but they were never betrayed by aliens to the point where it pulled the rug out from under them.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/08/17 23:10:28
2023/08/17 23:49:04
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
Oh, the reverse "both sides" argument. Please give it a rest. Yes, we all understand this is a terrible setting, but we can still call certain groups evil, or despicable, without comparing them to a more evil person. The Hound is an evil child murdering bastard. Is he as evil as Cersi, or the Mountain, or Littlefinger? No, nor does that remotely address the point that the Hound is an evil SOB.
The Black Templars are not a "cool" or in the least bit redeemable entity, no matter the justification used. They are Elite Space Nazis.
2023/08/18 01:39:22
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
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