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 Insectum7 wrote:
Nurgle Terminators aren't tougher because they're just mentally tougher soldiers who were otherwise slacking off before they became followers of Nurgle. They're tougher because having gone down the path of corruption they've become infused with power from their chosen god. Likewise, Berzerkers aren't just "angry marines", they are instead given a supernatural prowess and ferocity because of their allegience and sacrifice. They should be a cut or two or three above their non-aligned bretheren.

Your argument is a bit like Death Guard shouldn't get a bonus for being fat. There's a little more going on with a Death Guard marine than a bit of chunk.

I think the more important question is not whether or not they should get a bonus but whether they need to be a unique unit (rather than regular Terminators but with bonuses from the relevant Mark and possibly some alternate wargear options).

 vipoid wrote:
I think the more important question is not whether or not they should get a bonus but whether they need to be a unique unit (rather than regular Terminators but with bonuses from the relevant Mark and possibly some alternate wargear options).

Since GW's in the business of selling miniatures... probably?

I feel this is the key point:

 ElEssEm wrote:
The Death Guard are the best done, but had the advantage of a big Edition Launch wave (and an extremely passionate sculptor/long time Nurglite, Maxime Pastourel).

I think GW sold far more Death Guard because they were unique than they'd have sold "CSM but painted in pea green soup". Much like "World Eaters Terminators" that are unique and cool models are probably more interesting to a certain audience than buying CSM terminators and painting them red. (Not you World Eaters, or Red Corsairs, or Crimson Slaughter.)

You can I guess argue that GW could just have CSM as a faction and 5 (6 with Deathshroud?) boxes of "Chaos Terminators" - for "normal", and wearing the mark of the four gods.
But I'm not sure the sales would be as good.

Tyel wrote:
You can I guess argue that GW could just have CSM as a faction and 5 (6 with Deathshroud?) boxes of "Chaos Terminators" - for "normal", and wearing the mark of the four gods.
But I'm not sure the sales would be as good.

Then you could just have Space Marines as a faction with 1000 different Terminator kits. There's apparently enough call for Snowflake Chapters to need their own models, after all.

 Hellebore wrote:

 the Signless wrote:
Perhaps at the beginning, but we are nearly a decade on from DG having their own rules and identity. Generic CSM do not play with debuff auras that is a unique niche for the current DG book. Rolling everything back into CSM as opposed to giving these armies more support would remove some unique factions without much benefit.

..

What does a debuff rule have to do with miniatures?

You can roll all that back into csm and provide detachments for debuffs all you want.

Death Guard units currently have multiple units and abilities that interact with these auras. Rolling them back into CSM would result in either losing the unique play style of these units of making a section of the army that only has rules in a few siloed off detachments that are all explicitly themed DG and having to rewrite the aura rules in each of these detachments. It would be like rolling GSC into tyranids and then having to rewrite cult ambush into each of their detachments.

Debuff rules have to do with miniatures in so far as we are using them to play a wargame. The fact that these miniatures have a different play style and set of combat tactics justifies their separate existence in the rules while a modelling team works to differentiate them on the table.

I'm not sure I see the point of this whole thread given some of these comments. Death guard are justified because they've been out for a decade but we need to examine world eaters? Why aren't we waiting 10 years to have this conversation so we can say that it s too late to roll them back?

In which case I can't wait for my 10 ork codexs which we'll debate the merits of in 2067 when there are too many units to roll them back.

DG are justified because they have models and rules. WE are currently in a tighter spot because they are a younger range as an independent force and they received a lackluster codex in 10th. I posit that they do have a unique aesthetic that they have shown in past models and the range is adopting and that GW have shown that Khorne can have a unique play style. Khorne is a prominent faction in the fluff and, with examples such as DG and TS showing that they can be spun off into stand alone forces successfully, should be given time to develop their own range. Having a single bad codex should not be enough to consign the army to instant deletion, otherwise we would be sitting here discussing the need to flush DE after the travesty that was their 10th edition showing.

If GW had spun off nine more ork codices and provided unique rules niches and model ranges for them such that they were too large to be cleanly rolled back, I would also support these new factions. I can think of an independent speed waaagh, a gretchin force, and maybe some kind of savage ork range expansion?

 Insectum7 wrote:
Why do you think their supernatural embellishments need to be visible in the way the Death Guards are?

They don't have to be visible, but they do have to be established. I'm genuinely asking as someone who doesn't know a ton about WE lore: are the berzerkers stated to be supernaturally powerful? Everything I've read with them in it just made them out to basically just be normal marines who were rendered constantly aggressive because the nails steadily made them more and more angry/pained until they performed enough violence to ease the effects of the nails. I don't think I've ever read a story that made it clear that berzerkers could like, beat a smurf in an arm wrestling contest or a race. I was under the impression that they were functionally just cranky guys whose legion happened to prioritize extra melee practice.

And if we're talking about furious charge, +1 Attacks or the other differences between berzerkers and legionaires, that type of rule was given to a lot of units to represent them simply being hyped-up. And such benefits were weird in those scenarios too for the same reason. Like, the determining factor in whether or not a kabalite warrior could peel the plates off of a tank in 5th edition was whether or not he was invigorated by pain. Which was weird enough but at least I could assume that vampire rules (get more supernaturally strong the more you "drink" ) were in effect. The drukhari literally changed appearance, etc. as they drank, for instnace. And to my knowledge there isn't any indication that something similar is going on for berzerkers. If they're low-key time-warpers speeding themselves up to attack more or biomancers infusing their muscles with magical levels of strength, then fair enough!

Slaanesh and Khorne Marines aren't so outwardly different, but that doesn't mean they aren't also imbued with unnatural "gifts".

Slaaneshi marines are frequently described as having some combination of hyper-effective sensory organs to make them more aware of their surroundings or making use of exotic combat drugs (to up their physical speed), so rolling some combination of factors such as those into +1 initiative sort of made sense to me.

In the old lore (2nd ed) The Mark of Khorne was said to make the armor of the wearer and the body into one, and they had an increased armor save as part of that. (2+ rather than 3+). I don't know if that's still part of the description of Berzerkers or not.

I'd say being fused to your armor is enough of a sign of some sort of warp-y transformation that I'd be willing to chalk up some super strength/speed to that transformation, sure. Fair enough if that lore is still current.

Tyel wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I think the more important question is not whether or not they should get a bonus but whether they need to be a unique unit (rather than regular Terminators but with bonuses from the relevant Mark and possibly some alternate wargear options).

Since GW's in the business of selling miniatures... probably?

I feel this is the key point:

 ElEssEm wrote:
The Death Guard are the best done, but had the advantage of a big Edition Launch wave (and an extremely passionate sculptor/long time Nurglite, Maxime Pastourel).

I think GW sold far more Death Guard because they were unique than they'd have sold "CSM but painted in pea green soup". Much like "World Eaters Terminators" that are unique and cool models are probably more interesting to a certain audience than buying CSM terminators and painting them red. (Not you World Eaters, or Red Corsairs, or Crimson Slaughter.)

You can I guess argue that GW could just have CSM as a faction and 5 (6 with Deathshroud?) boxes of "Chaos Terminators" - for "normal", and wearing the mark of the four gods.
But I'm not sure the sales would be as good.

I dunno. I always think back to the Chaos 3.5 book and feel like it did a great job of putting all the Chaos options into one book, with rules for subfaction armies as well. All in a paperback that might be half the page count of the current hardbacks.

It's a valid question though, of whether having your own "subfaction" book sells more models or not. Maybe it does by making the faction feel more "established." But as a gamer I feel like I'm missing out on the flexibility awarded by the combined format.

Tyel wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I think the more important question is not whether or not they should get a bonus but whether they need to be a unique unit (rather than regular Terminators but with bonuses from the relevant Mark and possibly some alternate wargear options).

Since GW's in the business of selling miniatures... probably?

I guess this depends on whether you're approaching the question as someone whose goal is to make GW more money or as someone chiming in on what kind of releases they want to see in a release cycle with finite "slots."

Personally, a squad of terminators with melee weapons reads as pretty Khorne-friendly even if you don't give them some overtly Khornate special rule or build a kit that forbids them from taking guns and allows them to take "Skull Taker Axes" or what have you. Especially if there's an option to give the existing unit/kit a mark of Khorne and some nifty "blessings".

As a rough comparison, presumably there are some eldar rangers out there who opt to wield "Kurnothi Long Rifles" that are just slightly different sniper rifles than the ones the existing kit comes with. As much as I like seeing new elf plastic, I don't think it's particularly necessary for GW to add "Kurnothi Rangers" to release cycle that sell you slightly more mobile rangers. And changing up the aesthetics of kurnothi rangers to have, idk, antlers on their helmets or something would just be obscuring the lack of justification for that new kit being put on the release schedule.

Tyel wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I think the more important question is not whether or not they should get a bonus but whether they need to be a unique unit (rather than regular Terminators but with bonuses from the relevant Mark and possibly some alternate wargear options).

Since GW's in the business of selling miniatures... probably?

Weird how GW is "in the business of selling miniatures" when it comes to making slightly-different-Terminators, yet they're apparently not in the business of selling miniatures when it comes to even maintaining the existing models for Dark Eldar. Or doing literally anything with Ynnari.

That's cos they're not Space Marines, duh.

Who wants evil space elves when you can have evil super space humans.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Berzerker Terminators are a unit from back in the day. 2nd edition and the great 3.5 Codex iirc. They had some bonuses over regular Terminators like extra CC attacks or Furious Charge and Fearless. Something like that. In 2nd ed they were real nasty.

See, to me that sounds too much like something normal terminators already have covered, but I might just be under-appreciating the power of getting angry. Anger-based rules are kind of like inspiration or discipline-based rules. They kind of imply that units without said benefit were kind of half-assing their anger/enthusiasm/discipline.

The existence of marines who get Furious Charge and bonus attacks because they're angry kind of implies that you're bitter, ancient night lord whose face twists up in rage at the sight of loyalists... just isn't feeling big enough feels to be rewarded for it. If he was actually bloodthirsty or actually full of rage, he'd have Furious Charge, after all. And all those marines who get lethal hits when the right character has joined them? They're actually really prone to slacking off and not bothering to aim their shots unless there's an authority figure standing over their shoulder.

(Which is of course silly. But the flip-side of that is that maybe being angry doesn't actually deserve to translate into melee buffs.)

I definitely agree a lot with all this. Which is why I like that in 30k, characters generally don't give that kind of vague TCG-like buff like lethal hits auras just for existing. And the juiced up World Eaters have high offensive stats, but also have the Ravening Madmen rule (count as a significantly lower WS when being attacked, because they don't care when they're hit, but also weapons are -1S against them, because they don't care when they're hit). World Eaters generally get +1A on the charge but it's instead of other specialities that other Legions who are less obsessed with melee have rather than a random bonus.

If only Terminators could take Marks like they used to be able to, you could have Khorne Marked Terminators have rules and options to make Berzerker Terminators...

But Marks were effectively removed so that the variant books could be more different!

 Wyldhunt wrote:
As a rough comparison, presumably there are some eldar rangers out there who opt to wield "Kurnothi Long Rifles" that are just slightly different sniper rifles than the ones the existing kit comes with. As much as I like seeing new elf plastic, I don't think it's particularly necessary for GW to add "Kurnothi Rangers" to release cycle that sell you slightly more mobile rangers. And changing up the aesthetics of kurnothi rangers to have, idk, antlers on their helmets or something would just be obscuring the lack of justification for that new kit being put on the release schedule.

I'm not really sure GW's meaningfully constrained by release windows. There are certain limits perhaps - but they can roll out a lot of stuff.
Its unfortunate they've not had imagination regarding "new" Dark Eldar releases for nearly 30 years - but there's not much I can do about that. (Kind of feel there has to be a big wave at some point - because what else is there to do? Even Exodites are getting models.)
We could have had various things released via Kill Team had they been so inclined. They were not.

But this is arguably the point. Lets say your "Kurnothi Long Rifles" aren't released as CWE - but are instead released for the (inevitable?) new Exodite Faction which comes out with 5-6 kits some time in say 2030.
You can I guess say "its essentially just some reskinned rangers, can't you just play rangers and paint them up a bit differently?" And I guess you could. But I'm not sure that's the same. I think more people will want to buy an "Exodite" army as opposed to painting up a CWE army in beige and calling it a day.

Ashiraya wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Berzerker Terminators are a unit from back in the day. 2nd edition and the great 3.5 Codex iirc. They had some bonuses over regular Terminators like extra CC attacks or Furious Charge and Fearless. Something like that. In 2nd ed they were real nasty.

See, to me that sounds too much like something normal terminators already have covered, but I might just be under-appreciating the power of getting angry. Anger-based rules are kind of like inspiration or discipline-based rules. They kind of imply that units without said benefit were kind of half-assing their anger/enthusiasm/discipline.

The existence of marines who get Furious Charge and bonus attacks because they're angry kind of implies that you're bitter, ancient night lord whose face twists up in rage at the sight of loyalists... just isn't feeling big enough feels to be rewarded for it. If he was actually bloodthirsty or actually full of rage, he'd have Furious Charge, after all. And all those marines who get lethal hits when the right character has joined them? They're actually really prone to slacking off and not bothering to aim their shots unless there's an authority figure standing over their shoulder.

(Which is of course silly. But the flip-side of that is that maybe being angry doesn't actually deserve to translate into melee buffs.)

I definitely agree a lot with all this. Which is why I like that in 30k, characters generally don't give that kind of vague TCG-like buff like lethal hits auras just for existing. And the juiced up World Eaters have high offensive stats, but also have the Ravening Madmen rule (count as a significantly lower WS when being attacked, because they don't care when they're hit, but also weapons are -1S against them, because they don't care when they're hit). World Eaters generally get +1A on the charge but it's instead of other specialities that other Legions who are less obsessed with melee have rather than a random bonus.

Love that! That's exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about when I say that having a Codex: Khorne could create space to treat vanilla units in a different way.

Tyel wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
As a rough comparison, presumably there are some eldar rangers out there who opt to wield "Kurnothi Long Rifles" that are just slightly different sniper rifles than the ones the existing kit comes with. As much as I like seeing new elf plastic, I don't think it's particularly necessary for GW to add "Kurnothi Rangers" to release cycle that sell you slightly more mobile rangers. And changing up the aesthetics of kurnothi rangers to have, idk, antlers on their helmets or something would just be obscuring the lack of justification for that new kit being put on the release schedule.

I'm not really sure GW's meaningfully constrained by release windows. There are certain limits perhaps - but they can roll out a lot of stuff.

I'm using "release schedule" as more of a vague nod to their production/shipping/storage/product design budget. If we get "Blood Terminators," we presumably could have gotten a "more needed" (depending on who you ask) new kit, be that a more original Khorne unit that fills a more distinct niche, a grotesque box so they can come out of legends, a votann box to expand that faction, etc.

But this is arguably the point. Lets say your "Kurnothi Long Rifles" aren't released as CWE - but are instead released for the (inevitable?) new Exodite Faction which comes out with 5-6 kits some time in say 2030.
You can I guess say "its essentially just some reskinned rangers, can't you just play rangers and paint them up a bit differently?" And I guess you could. But I'm not sure that's the same. I think more people will want to buy an "Exodite" army as opposed to painting up a CWE army in beige and calling it a day.

I'm nitpicking the example, but bog standard rangers actually make a ton of sense being a shared unit between craftworlders and exodites. It would probably be a hard sell to get me excited about a redundant kit when the existing kit, rules, and fluff would all work perfectly well with exodites.

This might be a consequence of me starting with a xenos army instead of a marine army? If you told me I ought to buy an entirely different box of warlocks when I'm pretending my army is Ulthwe instead of Iybraesil, I'd find the notion silly and probably just proxy my Iybraesil banshees as Ulthwe banshees when I felt like using that statblock. The only upside would be that I'd have a bit of variety in sculpts to choose from, but I'd be mildly annoyed that they made two types of banshees instead of keeping the court of the archon around. Wanting Khorne-specific termies is like wanting a second kind of banshee.

EDIT: Actually, we sort of had this briefly at the tail end of 7th when "black guardians" had rules again. I was glad to have some nifty alternative rules for my guardians. I wasn't hoping that GW would release a bunch of "black guardian" kits that were just slightly different sculpts of the existing guardian units.