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Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Matched Play has the least amount of non-game effort. Or put differently; people generally want to play the game, not show up and spend a third of their time talking about how they are going to play it. It also follows that when matched play is sufficiently imbalanced such that players feel they are no longer really playing that naturally causes issues.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







This is the first thread I've been in since like 5th edition where people've said "nah, the pregame conversation isn't necessary, 40k is playable straight out of the box." Still, I generally talk games over by default at this point so I confess I haven't tried that.
   
Made in gb
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster





Apart from general pleasantries and "how many points/power are we playing", I've never had a conversation at a pick-up game be "are we playing matched/narrative/open play?". You can have the conversation but it's not required. That might be me just making a broad assumption but even when AoS trialed the 3 ways to play system, nobody I ever played against assumed it was anything but matched play at our FLGS.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







 Gert wrote:
Apart from general pleasantries and "how many points/power are we playing", I've never had a conversation at a pick-up game be "are we playing matched/narrative/open play?". You can have the conversation but it's not required. That might be me just making a broad assumption but even when AoS trialed the 3 ways to play system, nobody I ever played against assumed it was anything but matched play at our FLGS.


I don't mean within the 3 ways to play system. I guess things really have changed though if no one talks about tournament lists vs casual lists within matched play. *shrug* I'm fortunate to have a group where we arrange ahead of time.
   
Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot



Canada

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
This is the first thread I've been in since like 5th edition where people've said "nah, the pregame conversation isn't necessary, 40k is playable straight out of the box." Still, I generally talk games over by default at this point so I confess I haven't tried that.


If I am arranging a game through social media (which is the only way right now due to COVID restrictions), then we will talk about the game a little : "Do you want a prep game for the tourney next month? I have Dark Angels and Astra Militarum ready to go - do you have a preference? etc etc." If its a player I don't know I will ask them if they are new to 40K etc and modify the game accordingly. Before COVID on a Saturday afternoon you just went to the FLGS with a 2000 point army assuming Matched Play and got on with it. So you can totally play it "out of the box" if Matched Play is your expectation.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





I would say this premise is 100% accurate:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Do you know what's NEVER a discussion I've had to have with any other game?
"Hey do you want to play casual/narrative/competitive?"
You have to have that discussion with 40k because some people don't take it seriously (casual players), some people do take it seriously from a narrative perspective (narrative players), and others take it seriously from a gamesmanship standpoint (competition and competitive players),


However, I cannot support this conclusion:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

and the game is insufficiently well-put-together to reconcile those three playstyles without prior discussion.


The conclusion that I draw from the premise, based on my own personal experience and preferences is that 40k is the better game precisely BECAUSE it can be played in those three ways. Reconciling them (from my perspective) would actually ruin 40k; it might make a version of 40K that is the best competitive game ever... But that would suck for the 2/3 of us that don't want that. It might make a version of 40k that is the best narrative game ever... But that would suck for the 2/3 of us that don't want that.

Same argument holds for the number of factions and units per faction: more options are better because you can always choose to not buy or play that which you do not like. It's true that you don't get to limit YOUR OPPONENT's choices, which is often what people who suggest removing options actually want to achieve; it's literally a case of "These options that other people like shouldn't exist because it unbalances the game for the options that I like," which is just another way of saying "There are so many options that it's hard for me to win, so if there are fewer options maybe I can win MOAR."

The ONLY time a discussion about balance is clearly NOT about "I want to win MOAR" is when you're arguing to nerf the army you yourself play, or limit the options that you yourself prefer. For the record, I have seen Dakkanaughts do that, so there are some who are GENUINELY suggesting things that they think will improve the game for the greatest number of players, but those posts are few and far between, which means there's a strong chance that MANY (if not MOST) of the people who make these arguments are doing so in order to try and create the game THEY want without worrying about the consequences to people who don't feel the same way.

And for the record Unit, the fact that I quoted you to make this point does NOT mean that I think you are one of the selfish folks who wants to win MOAR. Arguing to limit other peoples options and nerf other people's army is never PROOF that a person is a selfish WAAC player; it's just that arguing against self interest IS proof that you're NOT.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/13 19:23:53


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




 Gert wrote:
Apart from general pleasantries and "how many points/power are we playing", I've never had a conversation at a pick-up game be "are we playing matched/narrative/open play?". You can have the conversation but it's not required. That might be me just making a broad assumption but even when AoS trialed the 3 ways to play system, nobody I ever played against assumed it was anything but matched play at our FLGS.

This has been my experience aswell. Normally, it's just "how many points you wanna play?" and maybe "what mission?". Only pre-game stuff we talk about once we have lists ready is how we would treat certain terrain (LoS blocking, Dense etc).
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







Interesting.

Used to be in 8th edition I had to tell people about my 3 Baneblades (to warn them ahead of time) or clarify whether we're doing cutthroat tournament lists or just fooling around, or whatever - even within the normal Matched Play structure.

I guess that's not a thing anymore. Good thing, because that was a common problem with 40k - tournament-purpose lists would just stomp all over more casual lists without much issue. It still seems like that would be the case, but I haven't had the misfortune of matching up like that to confirm.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/13 19:23:08


 
   
Made in gb
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster





Ah, see, that I would expect a conversation about. A pick-up game against 3 Baneblades would be something I would likely not agree to play but I think most people don't rock up to a pick-up game with that kind of army, no offense intended.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 Gert wrote:
Ah, see, that I would expect a conversation about. A pick-up game against 3 Baneblades would be something I would likely not agree to play but I think most people don't rock up to a pick-up game with that kind of army, no offense intended.
Why not? It's a perfectly legal list within Matched Play rules, it involves big, fun models, and isn't even particularly good currently.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot



Canada

There can always be feels-bad moments if you have a new or returning player who shows up with a random collection of miniatures against someone who is practicing for LVO. I find, though, that those are outliers. Could be different with different groups - I play in two "metas" and one is a little more competitive on average than the other.

I assume that my opponent might bring three Knights or three Keepers of Secrets and Shalaxi. When we had pick-up games on Saturdays I was indeed ready to tone-down if my opponent said that they were new. With 9th Ed I will bring a different list if my pre-arranged opponent is new to the game.

Pre-game communication can certainly enhance the experience, but my assumption is Matched Play.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in gb
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster





It's not quite the "2 troops and an HQ" formula that I would expect from a pick-up game. I have no idea how good or bad a Baneblade is but it's still a super-heavy tank that was originally designed for Apocalypse. I have had something similar where someone showed up for a gaming club day with a Tesseract vault and rinsed the enemy team in a 2v2 game because they had literally nothing that could harm it. That event started an arms race only the people with loads of disposable income could compete with and it ruined about a solid month of games until we had to bring in rules to stop it from happening. It was 100% legal but when everyone else is running 1-2k lists with 30+ models expecting something similar and then someone drops an Apocalypse grade unit, it's hardly fair to say "there's nothing wrong with that". Matched Play doesn't automatically mean "tournament winning lists expected" either, it just means that certain rules and restrictions are applied to the game being played.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/13 20:22:55


 
   
Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





Kansas, United States

 Gert wrote:
It's not quite the "2 troops and an HQ" formula that I would expect from a pick-up game. I have no idea how good or bad a Baneblade is but it's still a super-heavy tank that was originally designed for Apocalypse. I have had something similar where someone showed up for a gaming club day with a Tesseract vault and rinsed the enemy team in a 2v2 game because they had literally nothing that could harm it. That event started an arms race only the people with loads of disposable income could compete with and it ruined about a solid month of games until we had to bring in rules to stop it from happening. It was 100% legal but when everyone else is running 1-2k lists with 30+ models expecting something similar and then someone drops an Apocalypse grade unit, it's hardly fair to say "there's nothing wrong with that".


And THIS is why "Matched Play" isn't the only conversation that needs to be had.

Death Guard - "The Rotmongers"
Chaos Space Marines - "The Sin-Eaters"
Dark Angels - "Nemeses Errant"
Deathwatch 
   
Made in gb
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster





One example doesn't prove something. That situation was an outlier in what was roughly 7 years of weekly Saturday gatherings from 6th to 8th edition. When new people would show up they weren't beaten to a pulp with WAAC FOTM lists because that wasn't what the culture of the club was. If players wanted to test tournament lists against each other then they talked about it and went ahead. If someone did happen to regularly bring an insanely strong list that nobody could beat then we would discuss it after. If your community isn't like that then that is a real shame for you IMO.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/13 20:28:50


 
   
Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





Kansas, United States

 Gert wrote:
If your community isn't like that then that is a real shame for you IMO.


That's... while I appreciate the sentiment, that's not a helpful answer. Instead, maybe we can normalize having a discussion beforehand, like civilized folk, and if you don't have to do so, enjoy your privilege? It's not something everyone gets to have.

Death Guard - "The Rotmongers"
Chaos Space Marines - "The Sin-Eaters"
Dark Angels - "Nemeses Errant"
Deathwatch 
   
Made in gb
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster





It might be the difference between the UK and US gaming scenes but I've very rarely had a consistently bad experience with pick-up games. TBH if it works to have the discussion before the game then that's cool, I hope you get some good games post-Covid, God knows I could use some .
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

 Gert wrote:
It's not quite the "2 troops and an HQ" formula that I would expect from a pick-up game. I have no idea how good or bad a Baneblade is but it's still a super-heavy tank that was originally designed for Apocalypse.

there are enough people that currently play who don't know that at all

for those 3 Baneblades is as fine to be taken as 2 Troops+HQ is for you
and I have to say the worst stuff happening was with pick up games were people came with lists they thought were cool and fluffy but not knowing how strong they really are

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







Ah, so we DO have to have that discussion.

And 3 Baneblades isn't even a hardcore tournament list.
   
Made in gb
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster





TBF I didn't say it was a tournament list, rather it was just a big difference from what my experience of a pick-up game list usually was. And, yes the pre-game discussion did happen but it was very rare, such as the case of a super-heavy-heavy(?) list. That being said, I think nowadays I would probably take a 3 Baneblade list on as a challenge for my Cultist horde.
   
Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot



Canada

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Ah, so we DO have to have that discussion.

And 3 Baneblades isn't even a hardcore tournament list.


I think we are conflating two discussions here: what type of game (Matched vs Narrative) vs how hard are you trying. My experience is that the underlying assumption is Matched Play - you don't need to discuss that. You should, however, discuss that if you are expecting something else like a re-fight of your favorite Badab War story (whatever a Badab is?). You could show up to a 40K night at an FLGS with a 1500 to 2000 point Battle-Forged list and get a Matched Play game without having to negotiate the terms. This would not be true if you wanted a specific narrative scenario. This was also true with Flames of War in my experience.

You can still benefit from a discussion of how competitive you are looking to be (or your experience level/tourney prep vs looking to throw some dice etc). I am more than happy to tone a list down, but my assumption is that I could face tourney-lists. In fact, when a stranger says they are bringing a "fluffy" list my spider senses start tingling. I had a guy tell me in 2019 that was bringing a "fluffy" list. He then plunked down two Leviathans. OK...Fluffy as a steel ball-bearing.

Anyhoo, bring your three Baneblades.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in us
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot





 Gert wrote:
It's not quite the "2 troops and an HQ" formula that I would expect from a pick-up game. I have no idea how good or bad a Baneblade is but it's still a super-heavy tank that was originally designed for Apocalypse. I have had something similar where someone showed up for a gaming club day with a Tesseract vault and rinsed the enemy team in a 2v2 game because they had literally nothing that could harm it. That event started an arms race only the people with loads of disposable income could compete with and it ruined about a solid month of games until we had to bring in rules to stop it from happening. It was 100% legal but when everyone else is running 1-2k lists with 30+ models expecting something similar and then someone drops an Apocalypse grade unit, it's hardly fair to say "there's nothing wrong with that". Matched Play doesn't automatically mean "tournament winning lists expected" either, it just means that certain rules and restrictions are applied to the game being played.

Originally designed several editions ago. It's now been redesigned several times across several editions. It should be perfectly suitable for 40k Matched Play considering it has points for that, and Apocalypse is now a completely different ruleset where it has different rules entirely.

I would expect an entirely similar experience if say, a local group is playing nothing but assault marines with chain swords vs gretchin and ork shoota boys vs tau firewarriors and kroot, when some day the marines player shows up with a Predator. Now there's an arms race! Would you say it's hardly fair to say "there's nothing wrong with that" to somebody bringing a Predator? or even a dreadnought? Just because it disrupts the local meta.
   
Made in gb
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster





Considering that the 5th and 6th edition starter sets both came with Dreadnoughts, as did the Space Marine, Space Wolves, Orks, and Craftworlds Start Collecting/Combat Patrol boxes, I would say comparing a Dreadnought to a Baneblade in terms of power in an arms race is a bad comparison. They are very common models to find in starter armies.
Most Dreadnoughts/equivalents have about 8 wounds (excluding Leviathans/Redemptors/Invictor Warsuits) whereas a Baneblade has 26 wounds. Likewise a Dread will usually have 3 weapons (main weapon, combat weapon, "small arms" mount on combat weapon) whereas a Baneblade can have up to 11 weapons, many of which are twin-linked and its primary armament is a big cannon. Going from (Tactical Marines and a Captain vs Ork Boyz and a Warboss) to (Tactical Marines and a Captain vs a Stompa) is not what I would call most people's next steps in building an army, nor is it likely to be common in a pick-up game.
If the players were increasing the points of a game from say 1k to 1.5-2k then a Predator or Dreadnought would not be a surprising addition, as they are about 100-150pts each. A Baneblade with a set of sponsons i.e. a basic loadout is 550pts. A Stompa is 900pts.
Again, it is simply my experience within my group that players didn't show up to pick-up games with lists of super-heavies and on the rare occasion that was the case and it made the experience unenjoyable, a discussion was had post-game. I'm not saying super-heavies should be banned or that they are OP, I'm saying in my experience players don't go from 1k point games with SC/CP/Starter Boxes to bringing Lords of War to pick up games.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/13 22:47:59


 
   
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Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

Back before everyone locked down, I did see people asking about ITC, but that was mostly because that's how the local tournaments were configured. But then I wonder how many are just going in expecting to play by those standards, even for pick up games, even after a year of no games (LGS are starting to open up without reservations lately).

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in gb
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster





Just to clarify, do most games in the US get played with whatever ITC is? I assume it's some kind of tournament packet that makes rules changes or something?
Also, I've rarely had a time where I've had to book a slot to go play games at an FLGS unless there is an event on. Only times have been to go to Warhammer World (which is expected cos, y'know, it's WHW) and when a new manager at my local showed up and killed the gaming scene for about 3 months when he introduced a booking system for the casual drop-in days. Is booking to game a common thing everywhere but where I live?
   
Made in us
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot





@Gert
It's my personal experience that when people find out that they can jump from 1000-1500 or 1500-2000 buying, building and painting a single awesome looking model, they go for that over buying another couple of boxes or another start collecting box or what have you.
Also, outside of Redemptor Dreadnoughts and Plagueburst Crawlers, the only vehicles I see in most of my games are Knights or Baneblade chassis. Sometimes I'll see an Ork trukk/battlewagon list. So not exactly the models you'll find in starter sets and whatnot, or whatever you just called "common" to find in games.
Again, you're talking about 5th and 6th edition. It is now 9th edition, and the game has seen some redesigns. Baneblades and ESPECIALLY Knights are as common as or more common than lesser vehicles (besides Redemptors, I suppose). Did any vehicles even come in Indomitus? If they did, I certainly haven't seen them, even from players playing with units from the Indomitus box.
   
Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot



Canada

 Gert wrote:
Just to clarify, do most games in the US get played with whatever ITC is? I assume it's some kind of tournament packet that makes rules changes or something?
Also, I've rarely had a time where I've had to book a slot to go play games at an FLGS unless there is an event on. Only times have been to go to Warhammer World (which is expected cos, y'know, it's WHW) and when a new manager at my local showed up and killed the gaming scene for about 3 months when he introduced a booking system for the casual drop-in days. Is booking to game a common thing everywhere but where I live?


My gaming community has tourneys every quarter (40 players pre-COVID), but we do not participate in the ITC standings. In 8th Ed I played ITC conditions a couple of times when my opponent was practicing for an ITC tourney at another city. Before COVID we had 40k Saturday’s where you show up around 1230 hrs and we pair up. We also used a social media page to pre-arrange games outside on other days.

With COVID we have to book though the store for contact tracing, using our social media page to get organized. Such is life.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in gb
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster





Spoiler:
@Gert
It's my personal experience that when people find out that they can jump from 1000-1500 or 1500-2000 buying, building and painting a single awesome looking model, they go for that over buying another couple of boxes or another start collecting box or what have you.
Also, outside of Redemptor Dreadnoughts and Plagueburst Crawlers, the only vehicles I see in most of my games are Knights or Baneblade chassis. Sometimes I'll see an Ork trukk/battlewagon list. So not exactly the models you'll find in starter sets and whatnot, or whatever you just called "common" to find in games.
Again, you're talking about 5th and 6th edition. It is now 9th edition, and the game has seen some redesigns. Baneblades and ESPECIALLY Knights are as common as or more common than lesser vehicles (besides Redemptors, I suppose). Did any vehicles even come in Indomitus? If they did, I certainly haven't seen them, even from players playing with units from the Indomitus box.

I was talking about the 5th and 6th edition starter sets, you know where most people start 40k. Indomitus might not have come with vehicles but it came with units for both forces that are vehicle killers in the form of Eradicators and the Tripod with the Deathray for the Necrons. Of the SC/CP boxes, 14 come with either a vehicle or monster unit, so based on that alone I would say that non-super-heavy vehicles must be common for players with what I would consider pick-up armies. There have also been many Battleboxes over the years which often serve as army starters, most of which included a vehicle of some sort. As for super-heavies in 9th edition, it's a 3 command point sink to even include one in a list and it gains no detachment benefits unless it's a Knight army. If your group has loads of players with super-heavies then maybe try dropping the tier of games down to Combat Patrol (500pts) or Incursion (1000pts) games.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/13 23:17:41


 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

 Gert wrote:
Just to clarify, do most games in the US get played with whatever ITC is? I assume it's some kind of tournament packet that makes rules changes or something?

A while back, a store set up a tournament packet with adjustments to make things more "balanced" between the armies and just settled a lot of funny rules questions so the referee's time wasn't needed as much. They made it available online, so a lot of other stores used the same packet for their local tournaments.

Convention tournaments were largely doing the same thing. This became a standard practice, and one stood out more in my local area, and was well known here, ITC. I largely dropped the 40K scene in 7th, but I follow the local Facebook page to keep up on what people were saying, and ITC was still a thing as of a few months before everyone locked down. I haven't heard as much of it since, but that could just be because no one was meeting up, much less going to tournaments. That may change as I see feelers being put out for a tournament or two over the next month or so.

At its height, one could probably find a 40K tournament somewhere in the metropolis every Saturday (there are quite a few stores in this Valley), and most ran ITC, if another convention or fun-style tournament wasn't being run.

There were other ones, though, such as the Las Vegas Open (not local, but close enough to drive to for a long weekend) had their own packet, so sometimes I heard people using that as a goal. Again, that was before the lockdown.

 Gert wrote:
Also, I've rarely had a time where I've had to book a slot to go play games at an FLGS unless there is an event on. Only times have been to go to Warhammer World (which is expected cos, y'know, it's WHW) and when a new manager at my local showed up and killed the gaming scene for about 3 months when he introduced a booking system for the casual drop-in days. Is booking to game a common thing everywhere but where I live?

This was a recent thing. Stores weren't open to do ANY game time due to the lockdown response. When they were cleared to open up more, some required reservations to account for cleaning up the tables and terrain, with some even charging for it. It's only been in the last week or so where the most tight stores (and generally bigger) eased those restrictions. Still, there have been people having games in their own home, and a few newer (and smaller) shops where they allow the players to only take the precautions they feel they need.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/13 23:25:41


Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
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Yea no. I love BA but essentially getting other people to play it tends to be like pulling teeth. What makes it harder in setting up a community is the ability to demo. That means having enough for another person to play, especially if they are on the fence with playing the game. So just creating a community is rather hard when you are the only one pushing for the game.

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NE Ohio, USA

 Gert wrote:
It's not quite the "2 troops and an HQ" formula that I would expect from a pick-up game. I have no idea how good or bad a Baneblade is but it's still a super-heavy tank that was originally designed for Apocalypse.


Not true at all since Apocalypse wasn't a thing when the FW model & rules came out (early 3e).

   
 
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