Space Marine Bionics

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Oaka**

Space Marine Codex, Bionics description - "To represent this, if a model with bionics suffers a wounding hit and fails his Saving throw, roll a D6. On a roll of a 6 the model ignores the wound."

Question: Am I understanding this correctly that if a character with no invulnerable save takes a wound from a plasma gun, he does not get a bionics save? And if that same character takes an iron halo and fails the invulnerable save after a plasma gun wound, he then gets to attempt a bionics save?

Space Marine Codex, Bionics description - "A model that suffers a wound from a close combat attack that allows no Armor Save, or an attack that causes Instant Death cannot be saved by the bionics..."

Space Marine Codex, Adamantine Mantle description - "The character does not suffer Instant Death when wounded by a weapon whose Strength is at least twice the character's Toughness, taking a single wound instead."

Question: If a character has both bionics and an adamantine mantle, and takes a wound from a weapon that is double his toughness, does he get a bionics roll if he fails his saving throw?

- Oaka

**skyth**

Not getting a save is the same as failing it.

**Augustus**

Technically I think you are correct Oaka. Interesting catch.

We recently had a discussion about bionics, and realized they have completely different effects as listed in the Chaos and IG codex...

Just food for thought.

**yakface**

The bionics entries have been consolidated per the Wargear book. Only Inquisitorial Bionics work differently. All SM, IG & Chaos bionics function exactly the same now.

I agree with Skyth. One definition of the word failure is the omission to perform. So if a model does not pass a saving throw (by any means, even if it isn't allowed to take the saving throw), then by definition it has failed its saving throw.

**Mahu**

I was under the impression that the Wargear book wasn't official rules (as said by designers when it was realeased). Wouldn't Bionics work per the individual codexes.

**the_trooper**

Posted By yakface on 08/01/2006 2:44 AM

The bionics entries have been consolidated per the Wargear book. Only Inquisitorial Bionics work differently. All SM, IG & Chaos bionics function exactly the same now.

I agree with Skyth. One definition of the word failure is the omission to perform. So if a model does not pass a saving throw (by any means, even if it isn't allowed to take the saving throw), then by definition it has failed its saving throw.

Whaa? Please elaborate. I know the IG one were actually worth taking. Now is there a reason to buy the wargear book?

**insaniak**

I was under the impression that the Wargear book wasn't official rules (as said by designers when it was realeased)

I don't recall any such statement from the designers. An since the Wargear book includes updates to the various codex rules, it would be rather pointless if it wasn' official.

Whaa? Please elaborate. I know the IG one were actually worth taking. Now is there a reason to buy the wargear book?

The Wargear book includes numerous updates to the Codex Wargear entries, and consolidates most of the items that have different rules in different codexes.

You can find a full (well, as full as we could make it) list of the changes here: http://www.underthecouch.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29

**yakface**

Posted By Mahu on 08/01/2006 7:08 AM
I was under the impression that the Wargear book wasn't official rules (as said by designers when it was realeased). Wouldn't Bionics work per the individual codexes.

Nope. You will find no such statement ever made.

In fact, the preface at the beginning of the wargear book clearly explains that it has the most current updates regarding wargear.

As Insaniak and I compiled (in that link he posted), I think the Wargear book is quite a useful book to own.

**jpariury**

Question: Am I understanding this correctly that if a character with no invulnerable save takes a wound from a plasma gun, he does not get a bionics save? And if that same character takes an iron halo and fails the invulnerable save after a plasma gun wound, he then gets to attempt a bionics save?

To the best of my knowledge, no. An invulnerable save is not an armour save.

Question: If a character has both bionics and an adamantine mantle, and takes a wound from a weapon that is double his toughness, does he get a bionics roll if he fails his saving throw?

If he received an armour save against the hit, yes, otherwise, no.

**Beast**

I was under the impression that an invulnerable save is also a " saving throw" as Oaka quoted from the entry. Am I mistaken?

**insaniak**

An invulnerable save is not an armour save.

Doesn't matter. Bionics refer to a 'Saving Throw' not an 'Armour Save'

**the_trooper**

Sorry, dont mean to really derail but...

Nurgle's Rot updated so that followers are immune.

That was listed under the updated wargear. So are zombies now immune?

**yakface**

Plague Zombies aren't "followers". Nor do they technically have the Mark of Nurgle.

So no, they aren't immune.

**the_trooper**

**Oaka**

Back on the topic at hand:

Ok, I can accept that having no saving throw is the same as a failed save. That answers the first question. Now, what if my character with an adamantine cloak gets hit by a lascannon, do I get that 6+ roll? That's the important question, I think.

The text for bionics says you can't use it if the model is wounded by a weapon which causes instant death. The text for the adamantine mantle says the weapon causes a single wound INSTEAD of causing instant death. So my vote goes to bionics getting their save.

- Oaka

**yakface**

The answer is yes, although some people won't like the answer.

**alarmingrick**

the way i see it:

the Question is,
"Now, what if my character with an adamantine cloak gets hit by a lascannon, do I get that 6+ roll?"

the Answer is,
"The text for the adamantine mantle says the weapon causes a single wound INSTEAD of causing instant death."

**the_trooper**

So the weapon no longer causes instant death. So with the idea of saving throw being a save as in armor or invulnerable save the rule makes sense that you could use bionics against a lascannon as long as you had the adamantine mantle or daemonic rune or equivilent.

Khorne Lt. with feel no pain and daemonic rune... HmmmMMmmm.

**Oaka**

Lol, well I didn't quote the item descriptions exactly. If you take a look at the first post again, the text for bionics says that the wearer does not suffer from instant death, which is fundamentally different than the weapon not causing instant death. I would imagine one could have an argument that the process occurs like this:

Lascannon hits force commander

Lascannon wounds force commander

Lascannon is strength 9, force commander is toughness 4, lascannon causes instant death

Force commander does not suffer instant death, but takes a wound instead

Under that reasoning, the lascannon would still be a weapon that causes instant death, and so the force commander would not be allowed a bionics save. In my head, I compared it to a poisonous dagger stabbing something that is immune to poison. The dagger is still poisonous regardless of its actual effects.

But if everyone's in agreement, I'll happily take those bionics rolls against all those high strength weapons.

- Oaka

**the_trooper**

Im confused.... are we assuming the adamantine mantle on the Force Commander?