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Hello, I am somewhat new to 40k, but I got the crazy idea in my head that I want to put together an assault-based Grey Knights army.  This looks like this type of army could be really fun to play, but I am not sure how to get around just how slow the Grey Knights seem to be.  Any suggestions?  Should most of my troop choices be Inq Stormtroopers in Rhinos, and the core of my "assult" army be Terminators /w Stormshields and Thunderhammers either teleporting or embarking on a vehical first term?  Or something completely different.

Or is this plainly a bad idea and can't really be done?

GK are much better at combat than shooting, so your idea is a good one. Here's what I'd try and do:

2 minimum squads of inquisitorial storm troopers (with chimerae if you must, but I wouldn't recomend it) = ~100-300

3 squads of maximum sized grey knights in the fast attack slot = ~825

Fill you remaining points with as many termies as you can cram in and give everyone (exept unmounted STs) and his uncle teleport homers.

Whatever you do, do not give any of your regular grey knights special weapons as they lose their nemesis weapon and become simply very expensive space marines with no drop pod or lascannon.

cheers

I disagree with either dude on several points. Don't take min sized stormtroopers- they'll get wiped out quickly/easily and you'll waist your points. They are a good choice but only with they can take some shots and keep going. DEFINITELY give them a transport as they'll need to get their special weapons into range ASAP. Chimeras are excellent as they provide long ranged fire support that's good against medium/light infantry.

GK are excellent against med/light infantry when shooting and also good at assaulting as they generally wound on a 2+.

The trick to doing assaulting well is to soften up your targets before your assaulters reach them. You'll need long ranged fire support to keep large tanks or heavy support teams ducking or destroy them outright. Maybe a dread or two would help with that but they're light armor. Chimmera will help a bit but not against power armor. Assualters without melta bombs or powerfists are weak against heavy infantry and their vehicle support.

In that case would a Land Raider be a good idea, or is that thing typically too expensive?

On the teleport squads would a psycannon be good for softening up infantry, or is the exchange of the Nemesis Force Weapon too great?

Am I correct in assuming that I should be aiming for all the Terminators to have Stormshields and Thunderhammers over the SBolter and NFwep, or will I want a few termies who can shoot as well?

Thank you for all of the help.

Stormtroopers can work in min sized squads (like 5-6 men) provided you aren't expecting them to survive. I use two 5 man squads with two meltaguns each in rhinos as "suicide missiles" to toss at tanks or to act as speed bumps against infantry heavy lists.

Here's a quick and dirty "assault GK" list I worked up:

1xGrand master w/Daemonhammer, NFW, Psychic Hood, Sacred Incense
1x4 Terminator Retinue w/1 Psycannon

2x5 GK terminators w/1 Psycannon

2x5 Stormtroopers

3xLand Raider w/EA, Smoke

Of course, it falls apart if you run into any of these scenarios:

1. Brightlance Heavy Eldar/DE
2. Escalation (this could work to your advantage, but not being able to ride on in the LRs can hurt)
3. Low terrain count (not being able to hide those Land Raiders first turn can hurt).


As far as the terminators go, leave the NFW/SB combo for the majority of them and have at most 1 Thunderhammer per 5 terminators in the squad. The reason is that you are still wounding on 2+s on most targets, but swinging at I4. Thunder Hammers only really come into play against multi-wound models and vehicles.

I have a GK army and I play it as a pure GK army; no IG or stormtroopers. I have had mixed results with it. The real strength of the army is it's mid range firepower. At 24-36' range it is the most powerful shooty army I have ever played. The best tactic to use while playing them is to get in that range as quickly as possible and stay there as long as possible. Make your opponent assault you. If you can get a couple of turns of shooting as the other guy closes with you you can offset the numerical superiority that he starts the game with and your troops will probably beat him in close combat. Remember that the GK "shrouding" special rule will stop 40-60% of your opponents shooting in the 24-36" range. The effect of that is that almost every opponent will come to you to increase his sshooting effectiveness, so take advantage of that, DO NOT come to him.

The problem with the army is dealing with high armor vehicles like falcons or landraiders. You need dreads for that and since they do not get "shrouding" they die pretty easily and pretty early. The fact that a pure GK army has no speed hurts too.

I would advise against Landraiders because they will get all of your opponents anti-tank fire every round.

Darrian

Hmmm, maybe its my inexperience with building armies (I've only put together around 750 nids and 750 SoB before) but I'm having real difficulty putting together a list that I cannot see getting swarmed or beaten into dust unless I really get those teleport beacons well placed.  Are Grey Knights really effective on their own, or were they really made to just be thrown in SMs and IG?

Darrian13 is right on. You want to maximize mid to long range fire power for as long as possible and force the enemy to come to you. Aggressive GK players usually get rolled in my experience. Use the shrouding as long as possible and assault only at the last possible moment. The army I have the most problems against with my GK are podding marines because it makes the shroud useless and getting 25 pt marines shot down at close range because of pods really hurts.  You can't really castle as with larger armies because you have so few models to begin with.  Only thing you can really do is try to find hard cover and keep your own deep strikers in reserve and try to drop behind podders. 

Tau are always my nightmare. The stealthsuits were the object of most of my frustration. They were able to out-shroud me, it just didn't seam fair. My 3 dreads were usually dead on turn 2 against the Tau barrages.

Darrian
Tau >Grey Knights

With my DH army I run a GM with Psycannon, a 4 man retinue with a psycannon, and a 5 man term squad where the BC and one of the terms has a psycannon. The only other model that's listed as being a "grey knight" is the single dreadnought. Midrange firepower is incredible, and many non-MEQ armies have trouble matching me shot for shot (the sole exception being maybe tau).

Oddly enough, the spend very little time in close combat. I generally would rather sit at range and plink with the psycannons, and they rarely try to engage me (and when they do, it's stuff like genestealers).

nobody, I play mine GK's the same. Close combat is usually the last option to use. I run a similiar list at 1500(all GK's, terms, and one dread. As many psycannons as possible sitting back at range. I have found to be very shooty and capable of handeling most lists.

I Would have thought for shooty long range demon hunters that you would want Inquisitors/psycannon and their retinues with plasmas/bolters & sages for rerolls.

They lose the benefit of the shrouding and in my experience they die to easy with T3. If you get good at guessing your distances the shrouding works wonders. You also have the mobility of GK's to move back when the enemy closes and still be able to shoot Storm bolters and psycannons.  This allows you to also dictate when assault takes place by barely staying out of charge range or moving forward to charge.

I run a single elite inquisitor with a psycannon for the shootiness, but I don't run the retinue because it slows him down (they can't move and shoot), makes him visible to enemy fire (he can't rely on the IC rules to prevent getting shot), and it's exceptionally fragile (the best save is 4+).

The only reason I don't run more than one inquisitor is because my elites slots are otherwise filled (a GK terminator squad and a callidus).

How do you deal with tanks? Do you leave it entirely up to Dreadnoughts?

Unfortunately, anything with armor 13+ can only effectively be dealt with by using las-cannons and crack from the 3 dreads that I play. I guess I could gut some thunder hammers in the termie squads and hope that my opponent lets me get into b2b with the vehicles, not likely though.

Darrian

What about allying with Sisters of Battle and taking a Celestine Squad with a Multimelter?

You think they will live long enough to move up into range unsupported to get off a multimelta shot from 12" or less to maximize that weapon? I don't think so.

One unit, be it for assaulting or getting in close for special weapons, is never enough. The sisters are good for what they do, but unsupported (sending them in alone) they'll rarely make their points back. Think at least 3 units for a push of any kind, and those units should be mid to full strength, not min/maxed. Rhinos with ea/smoke are good for this. My BA use this tactic: I zip up, disembark from one side of the rhino and the enemy on the other side, turning the transport into a a mobile wall that pops smoke. Several rhinos together form a nice armored wall that blocks line of sight, allowing your other assault troops to advance forward safely. Storm troopers in rhinos can pull the same tactic to cover your advancing grey knights, reducing the lanes of fire your 25pt marines will have to walk through. Not to mention if the enemy is firing at your closing ST they're not firing at your GK.

Keep firing in your sweet spot until your enemies forces soften up, then go for the assault at that time. Darren13 is right about laz/krack being your only long range ally which means dread or land raider. Dreads are fine if you set them up behind cover, not IN it, thus avoid being vaporized on the first turn. Keeping them alive on turn 2+ will be determined by how well you destroyed enemy armor.

I find the strength of the Demonhunters army (GK or not) lies in the shooting arena. The Shrouding is a bit counter-intuitive because it motivates you to keep your distance from the enemy. Grey Knights do not necessarily belong close in or in combat by turn 2 (via DS or transport). Getting this close to the enemy before your guns have had a chance to take effect typically gets you outnumbered and quickly slaughtered.

Most other armies can summon enough special weapons fire at close range to make life very difficult for walking-to-em style Grey Knights, and Deep Striking is usually a losing proposition because your squad can only sit there and shoot for a turn, and is in base-to-base contact just asking for a plasma cannon or ordnance weapon to land on their heads. Add to this the fact that when you deep strike your forces show up piecemeal 80% of the time and you suddenly have a bunch of 25 point marines that show up one or two squads at a time and get crushed with return fire.

By far the best way to play *assault* grey knights is to fit as many Land Raiders and Grey Knight squads in as you can. I've heard that the multiple-land raider configuration can be used to average success. I use land raiders in my own force and they definitely make the grey knights much more useful, and they are an effective force multiplier.

I would heed the advice of previous posters; use assault as a final solution with a GK army, because most opposing forces will be able to summon the counter-assault (demons, seraphim, assault marines, and Independent Characters) to utterly crush small compact GK units. It's all about eliminating these dangerous units unless you're playing against Tau or Imperial Guard, which can usually be crushed with a full-on frontal assault.

Inquisitor should definitely always get the Emperor's Tarot if you're using him, IMHO. I take one with my marines with that item and otherwise exactly as nobody uses him. If I opt for White Scars over IG for my next army, I was considering an Emperor's Tarot caddy as well.

Hmm....

Being the owner of a pure Grey Knight army myself (and that means GREY KNIGHTS, none of these inquisitors or stormtroopers some of you heretics are on about) and I find that I cant agree with many of the ideas put forward here.

Grey Knights are not better at shooting. You have got those nemesis force weapons and the power weapon justicar for a reason. USE THEM!!!

Yes, they are decent at shooting aswell. But its close combat whre their true strengths lie. Otherwise, they are just marines with storm bolters and shiny armour. Oh, and 10pts more expensive.

What I tend to do is move forward first turn, fire off those storm bolters. I make sure I tell my opponant about the shrouding, which tends to entice them to move forwards to me. Then I move backwards, shoot them some more, then they move forwards, then I move backwards and shoot them some more. By now I have reached the edge of the table, so when they move forwards again, I also move forwards, meaning we are approximatly 12 inches apart. Then I shoot them. This means im only taking one lot of firepower to the face, which has hopefully been thinned out by the storm bolters.

Storm Bolters can kill marines. But the grey knights lack of AP3 weaponry means that its close combat where we slaughter the MEQs. Hitting them on 3s, wounding them on 2s (killing on 2s in the case of the justicar) means lots of armour saves for the marines to make, and they should fail some.

Another advantage is chaplains/librarians/commanders only hit grey knights onn 4s, because of WS5.

All of these things point towards grey knights been more effective in combat. Storm bolters are also ASSAULT weapons...they should be used to shoot the enemy then assault!

They have true grit. Another thing that points them towards been in combat.

Fearless really comes into play if you are outnumbered 4 to 1 by tyranids. Less so in shooting. Another advantage they have in combat.

I would say shooting the enemy up for a couple of turns, then charging into combat is the way to go. No basic troops in the game can boast the stats of a grey knight in combat, use that to your advantage!

As for dealing with armour, I use 3 dreads, with Assault Cannons, Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons, and Storm Bolters. Not much, but 3 assault cannons can also help to thin out the never ending hordes of tau/orks/nids. Also, ive found my dreads great for tying up hard, nasty enemy units with lots of attacks, but not much high strength. Think of things like homoguants, assault marines, terminator assault squads...

Also, they are great for taking out independant character with strength 10. Hitting with your 2 attacks on a 3+ is nice against basic marines, rather than having to hit on 4+.

I see lots of people on this forum advocating twin las and missile launcher for the dreads, staying out of combat with the grey knights, running away like COWARDS!! I do not think a Grey Knight Grand Master would think, "oh, lets not engage those tyranids, lets shoto them up a bit more first, while moving backwards". He would charge headlong into the combat, smashing aside all that would dare to stand in his way, taking the fight to the monsterous creatures themselves, and destroying them upon his mighty force weapon!

As a side note, never, ever take psycannons on the basic grey knight squads. On terminators it is cool, but on power armoured grey knights, you want all the nemesis force weapons you can.

Make sure you give your Grand Master a psycannon, so you dont waste his good BS. But never forget that grey knights are a close combat army. When I feel the urge to shoot my enemies to bits, I get out my 12 assault cannon ultramarines. If I had wanted another shooty army, I would have chose tau. Grey knights are meant for COMBAT!!

Good luck with your grey knights.

First of all though its a bit off topic, I do not think a Grey Knight Grand Master would think, "oh, lets not engage those tyranids, lets shoto them up a bit more first, while moving backwards".
That might be exactly what he would say, they are veterans of hundreds of battles and didnt stay alive that long by charging into combat whenever anyone got close even if shooting would serve them better.

Anyway, shooty grey knights is probably the way to go. Psycannons can still take down most armour 12 vehicles with mass shots and terms with TH can take out higher armour, plus there are less vehicles floating around in 4th ed so that should make it easier, I wouldnt take the Dreads, they are just too fragile.

A friend of mine ran into an all shooty GK force with no allies or stormtroopers or vehicles at a rouge trader a while ago and the guy just sat back and shot the whole game, moving backwards when he could and he did fairly well I believe, granted he probably got some good matchups but still.

I would take the advice of most everyone here and only charge into combat when you outnumber or are sure of a massacre or if you have no other option.

Other than that cut them down with Psycannons and storm bolters and take down vehicles when you can get them.

Grey knights are probably never gonna be top tier without allies, because of thier lack of anti tank, so take them as a fluffy army that can do well against the right opponents but might get crushed if you are against the wrong ones.

peace
aaron

No no no no NO!! Shooty Grey Knights are heresy!

Look, when shooting, you get 2 strength 4 shots. In combat, you get 2 strength 6 attacks. Not difficult to figure out which will cause the most damage.

And thats just basic grey knights. Grey Knight Terminators are clearly better in combat than at shooting. Grey Knight Grand Masters carry strength 6 force weapons, a damn sight better than  the storm bolters they also carry. Grey Knight Dreadnoughts are WS5, meaning its in your best interests to take a CC weapon on them, rather than a Missile Launcher.

Karnage97, when you get a picture of a Grand Master, do you imagine him sitting at the back, firing away with his storm bolter, while moving backwards, or do you imagine him charging into the heart of the enemy army, smashing the maside with his force weapon? Be honest now, I know which image I prefer. And he is better in combat anyway. Im actually saying combat is MORE VIABLE than shooting for Grey Knights.

If you dont take dreads, how else do you propose to deal with AV13 and 14 stuff, or hold up terminator assault squads? Do you realise how many storm bolters it would take to kill a 5 man terminator assault squad??? Far too many, but with rending assault cannons and strength 10 combat weapons,they can be cut down.

I agree with you that Grey Knights are not top tier. Probably not even second tier. Pure Grey Knights are one of the worst armies in the game, alongside Dark Eldar and Kroot Mercs.

Psycannons cannot take out AV12 vehicles easily. You need to hit, then get a 6, then another 6. Not cost effective. It takes 18 psycannons to kill 1 space marine dreadnought (not venerable). Now, obviously, you dont have 18 psycannons, and if you did shooting them all at that dreadnought would be a bad, bad idea.

Now compare that to assault cannons. 4 Assault Cannons will get 2 penatrating hits on average, of which one should be 4+, and blow the thing to bits.

By far the best way to go is advancing forwards, using those strength 6 weapons the way they were meant to be used, having a thudner hammer in your grey knight terminator squads, getting 3 dreads with CC weapons and assault cannons, and taking the fight to the enemy! This means occasionally your grey knights get into combat with an enemy tank, and can kill it using their strength 6 weapons. Maybe you could get melta bombs on the justicar to get a nice penatrating hit? How about hammerhand on the Grand Master, making him strength 8 so he can rend vehicles asunder?

There are far more anti tank options when you get up locse and personal with grey knights.

Obviously, im not advocating advancing towards a genestealer horde. Against genestealers, it would be best to shoot them for a few turns, and, in most normal games, it would be best to shoot for a couple of turns before charging in. You might aswell use those storm bolters, after all! I have said befroe, I move backwards myself to get a couple of extra turns of shooting, using the shrouding to its best effect. But the idea that staying otu of Close Combat all game with Grey Knights, and only charging if you "have too" is idiotic.

No no no no NO!! Shooty Grey Knights are heresy!

Look, when shooting, you get 2 strength 4 shots. In combat, you get 2 strength 6 attacks. Not difficult to figure out which will cause the most damage.

You also get to use those Str 4 attacks more often during the game, as most smart opponents aren't charging Grey Knights until they are ready to.

And thats just basic grey knights. Grey Knight Terminators are clearly better in combat than at shooting. Grey Knight Grand Masters carry strength 6 force weapons, a damn sight better than  the storm bolters they also carry. Grey Knight Dreadnoughts are WS5, meaning its in your best interests to take a CC weapon on them, rather than a Missile Launcher.

No arguement they are better in close combat, but I'd rather have the two psycannons shooting while an enemy closes (or runs away) than just sit there.

Most veteran players don't run units into hand to hand with a dread unless they a)don't have a choice (khorne, blood angels), or b)are quite confident of taking it down on the charge with little damage in return (daemon prince, bloodthirster, c'tan).

Karnage97, when you get a picture of a Grand Master, do you imagine him sitting at the back, firing away with his storm bolter, while moving backwards, or do you imagine him charging into the heart of the enemy army, smashing the maside with his force weapon? Be honest now, I know which image I prefer. And he is better in combat anyway. Im actually saying combat is MORE VIABLE than shooting for Grey Knights.

I'd say about 2/3 to 3/4 of the damage done by my DH is done in the shooting phases, with close combat with the GK terminators mopping up turns 5 and/or 6.

Want to know something even funnier?  I used to have a daemonhammer as the offhand weapon for the Grand Master until I realized that the experienced players weren't giving him a chance to get in there and use it.  For the same price he now totes a psycannon, so he's useful in more phases of the game.

If you dont take dreads, how else do you propose to deal with AV13 and 14 stuff, or hold up terminator assault squads? Do you realise how many storm bolters it would take to kill a 5 man terminator assault squad??? Far too many, but with rending assault cannons and strength 10 combat weapons,they can be cut down.

The one thing here I mostly agree with.

I agree with you that Grey Knights are not top tier. Probably not even second tier. Pure Grey Knights are one of the worst armies in the game, alongside Dark Eldar and Kroot Mercs.

Dark Eldar are hardly the worst army in the game, but I'd say Daemonhunters isn't the worst either (unless, of course, you play walking GKs that rely on close combat to win).

Psycannons cannot take out AV12 vehicles easily. You need to hit, then get a 6, then another 6. Not cost effective. It takes 18 psycannons to kill 1 space marine dreadnought (not venerable). Now, obviously, you dont have 18 psycannons, and if you did shooting them all at that dreadnought would be a bad, bad idea.

Now compare that to assault cannons. 4 Assault Cannons will get 2 penatrating hits on average, of which one should be 4+, and blow the thing to bits.

Yup, you are right, it takes 18 psycannons to kill a dreadnought, but it only takes 9 to take down an AV12 skimmer (devilfish, wave serpent) which is typically a greater threat, and that's still more effective than using a storm bolter against the same target.

Incidentally, how do you handle monoliths?  Assault cannons don't work, and dreads are only hitting it on the charge on 6's.

By far the best way to go is advancing forwards, using those strength 6 weapons the way they were meant to be used, having a thudner hammer in your grey knight terminator squads, getting 3 dreads with CC weapons and assault cannons, and taking the fight to the enemy! This means occasionally your grey knights get into combat with an enemy tank, and can kill it using their strength 6 weapons. Maybe you could get melta bombs on the justicar to get a nice penatrating hit? How about hammerhand on the Grand Master, making him strength 8 so he can rend vehicles asunder?

There are far more anti tank options when you get up locse and personal with grey knights.

It must be nice having opponents that don't realize tanks can move and shoot, or realize that the average sight range on shrouding is 30".

Obviously, im not advocating advancing towards a genestealer horde. Against genestealers, it would be best to shoot them for a few turns, and, in most normal games, it would be best to shoot for a couple of turns before charging in. You might aswell use those storm bolters, after all! I have said befroe, I move backwards myself to get a couple of extra turns of shooting, using the shrouding to its best effect. But the idea that staying otu of Close Combat all game with Grey Knights, and only charging if you "have too" is idiotic.

I don't think anybody has advocated completely avoiding close combat here. 

There is a good reason many of us have advocated a more shootier oriented force, and that's because most opponents quickly learn that they cannot allow you to get into hand to hand with them and avoid it.  Granted, you might have a lot of experience with players who move to within 12" due to shrouding (again, the average here is 30" folks, most armies find that a large enough window).  Better to shoot and have some effect against an opponent rather than fruitlessly running after a falcon watching your storm bolter rounds spange off the front armour because you thought extra grey knights were better than extra firepower.

GKs are a losing army in any incarnation. Get used to that before you bother buying all those expensive, annoying to work with, paint-chipping metal models.

Once you're at peace with the fact that you will never win more than half of your games (ever), you can start building a solid list.

There's a few ways of doing it, but most of the advice in this thread is pretty blah.

Some thoughts:
1) Your only real way of getting antitank guns is dreadnoughts. Failing that you've got stormtroopers with meltaguns. You need to solve your antitank weaknesses before you start working on anything else. You need at least five reliable antitank units in a good army, in general.

2) Normal grey knights are utterly horrible. What would ever make you want to pay 25 pts for a T4 3+ save guy in an army when you can have the second best terminators in the game (with a decent supporting list, unlike Thousand Sons, who are the best) with some of the best looking models out there? These guys are pretty cool as a teleport attack in a small squad (5-6) but that's about it. I would go two incinerators but that's about it (maybe 2 psycannons if you really want but I am not so enamored with the psycannon).

3) If you want to win, you will take a callidus assassin. It is the best use of points in this army and it will give you some tactical flexibility you need (counter your opponent's key unit, murder a Tau Ethereal or a squad of broadsides etc).

4) With the Callidus, you will take: Elite Inquisitor with a psycannon and an emperor's tarot. Retinues are pointless. You can have a move and shoot independent character psycannon! Take it and like it.

5) GM with a psychic hood, sacred insense, and holocaust. You won't be disappointed.

Also, he probably disagrees with a lot of my thoughts, but look for Centurian99 or search for his posts. He had a lot of really interesting things to say about winning with Daemonhunters if I recall correctly.

"You also get to use those Str 4 attacks more often during the game, as most smart opponents aren't charging Grey Knights until they are ready to."

And most smart Grey Knight players wont give your opponant that luxury.

"No arguement they are better in close combat, but I'd rather have the two psycannons shooting while an enemy closes (or runs away) than just sit there."

Agreed on that. There is no reason NOT to shoot with decent firepower if you can, just dont take your eye off the fact that they are a combat army. I actually take 3 in my terminator- GM with psycannon, and a terminator elites choices. In that termie elites choice, the brother captain has a psycannon, and so does a basic trooper. Great for destroying annoying things with a 4+ save. But psycannons are overpriced. Just compare them to Assault Cannons, or even cyclone missile launcher

"Most veteran players don't run units into hand to hand with a dread unless they a)don't have a choice (khorne, blood angels), or b)are quite confident of taking it down on the charge with little damage in return (daemon prince, bloodthirster, c'tan)."

Just remember that not every single person you play will be a Veteran player, who knows every trick in the book, and can use all his units to optimum effectiveness. These top tier players actually only make up around 20% of the warhammer population. Sure, in a tournament you will meet more. But your first couple of games will probably be against average players. When you start realising not everyone is a tactical god, you will realise dreadnoughts are vital in a Grey Knight army.

You also compare them to things they naturally cant deal with. Its like me comparing genestealers to a las/plas squad for shooty effectiveness. Dreads are good at holding things up that have lots of attacks, but not really high strength, like death company, wulfen, termie assault squads, squads that your Grey Knights cant deal with. They have good shooting, which is fairly rare in a grey knight army, and high strength combat weapons (not that rare, but strength 10 is a big jump from strength 6.)

"I'd say about 2/3 to 3/4 of the damage done by my DH is done in the shooting phases, with close combat with the GK terminators mopping up turns 5 and/or 6."

I would say the opposite for mine, around 2/3 of the damage is done in combat.

"Want to know something even funnier?  I used to have a daemonhammer as the offhand weapon for the Grand Master until I realized that the experienced players weren't giving him a chance to get in there and use it.  For the same price he now totes a psycannon, so he's useful in more phases of the game."

I would say the really funny thing is you bothered with a Deamonhammer in the first place. The Nemesis force weapon is the best weapon he could take, and he already has it. Use hammerhand if you want to break apart vehicles with him.

"Dark Eldar are hardly the worst army in the game, but I'd say Daemonhunters isn't the worst either (unless, of course, you play walking GKs that rely on close combat to win)."

No, Dark Eldar are not the worst. They are second worst, after kroot mercs. Then its deamonhunters.

Walking GK is the best version of Grey Knight army!!

Also, are we talking about the same thing? Im talking about pure grey knights, you just mention "deamonhunters". If you use stormtroops/inquisitors, we are coming from 2 different perspectives.

"

Yup, you are right, it takes 18 psycannons to kill a dreadnought, but it only takes 9 to take down an AV12 skimmer (devilfish, wave serpent) which is typically a greater threat, and that's still more effective than using a storm bolter against the same target.

Incidentally, how do you handle monoliths?  Assault cannons don't work, and dreads are only hitting it on the charge on 6's."

Well, that all depends if that skimmer has a holofield or decoy launchers! But 9 psycannons to take down 1 skimmer is still far too many. Just ignore it. If it has a nasty combat unit inside like incubi, hold them up with your dreads (you know, the close combat ones I talked about earlier ).

I dont handle monoliths. I go for the phase out, which is far easier to do when your in combat with them, take it from me. Power weapons kill warriors alot quicker than storm bolters/psycannons. Besides, any AV14 tank is hard to kill for Grey Knights anyway.

"It must be nice having opponents that don't realize tanks can move and shoot, or realize that the average sight range on shrouding is 30"."

Alright, if you had...a devastator squad 30 inches away from my grey knights, would you just keep it there? Because the average roll is 30, right? But doing this means slightly less than half your shooting is going to fail to reach them! Dont tell me you wouldnt even consider moving them.

Tanks cant fire that great if they move. What about ordanance barrage weapons? Predators with multiple lascannons? Ordanance having to roll an extra d6 for scatter, and pick the highest? What if they are stunned, or immobilised by the assault cannons? You cant always just move away.

"There is a good reason many of us have advocated a more shootier oriented force, and that's because most opponents quickly learn that they cannot allow you to get into hand to hand with them and avoid it.  Granted, you might have a lot of experience with players who move to within 12" due to shrouding (again, the average here is 30" folks, most armies find that a large enough window).  Better to shoot and have some effect against an opponent rather than fruitlessly running after a falcon watching your storm bolter rounds spange off the front armour because you thought extra grey knights were better than extra firepower."

Heh, your psycannon rounds would also bounce off, as the falcon WOULD have a holofield and a spirit stone. I have 3 dreads with assault cannons. Thats about as decent anti-armour as your going to get in a pure grey knight force.

"GKs are a losing army in any incarnation. Get used to that before you bother buying all those expensive, annoying to work with, paint-chipping metal models.

Once you're at peace with the fact that you will never win more than half of your games (ever), you can start building a solid list."

A little harsh. Just because they are not dominating the GTs, does not mean they are a "losing" army. I have already said they are one of the worst armies in the game, but saying you will "never" win more than half your games with them is a very bold statement to make. I have done alright with mine (not amazingly, but like you said, they are not a top tier army).

" Your only real way of getting antitank guns is dreadnoughts. Failing that you've got stormtroopers with meltaguns. You need to solve your antitank weaknesses before you start working on anything else. You need at least five reliable antitank units in a good army, in general.
"

Agreed, but pure grey knights can only take 3 dreads, so its gotta be just 3 anti tank units.

"2) Normal grey knights are utterly horrible. What would ever make you want to pay 25 pts for a T4 3+ save guy in an army when you can have the second best terminators in the game (with a decent supporting list, unlike Thousand Sons, who are the best) with some of the best looking models out there? These guys are pretty cool as a teleport attack in a small squad (5-6) but that's about it. I would go two incinerators but that's about it (maybe 2 psycannons if you really want but I am not so enamored with the psycannon).
"

Because the Terminators cost 21pts more?

You would pay 25pts because you are doing a pure grey knight force! Because you like the models! Because you like the fluff! Because you fancy a challange! Dont always assume that your way is the only way. I use 4 squads of 6 in my 1500pt army, and they have never done horrendously.

"5) GM with a psychic hood, sacred insense, and holocaust. You won't be disappointed."

No need for a psychic hood, all grey knights have the aegis (which is the same as a psychic hood). I was recommend hammerhand for helping to crack vehicles, but holocaust is a decent power too.
On a side note, never, ever take holocaust on your grey knight terminator squads! If you roll a perils of the warp, they die on 2s, as they dont even get their invunerable save.

Points 3 and 4 mention inquisitors, and im talking about a pure grey knight force here.