Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.

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**Togusa**

Bharring wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
ccs wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
It is my personal opinion that Ultramarines current rules are perfect. They are strong enough to win any match but they can lose a match just as easily. Ironhands would dump on my ultras....it wouldn't even be fair.

??
I could swear I just read that you think the Ultras rules are perfect & that they could win any given match just as easily as they could lose it. So how would playing vs IH be unfair to your UM?
Because obviously they are just better than the Ultramarines. By a large factor too.

Then how can Ultramarines be strong enough to win that match?

I've seen my buddies' Ultramarine army go absolutely bonkers, I don't understand why people don't run them more. They're such a huge gunline army, Hellblasters + Characters (reroll) + Impulsors + Scout Redemptors seems to be uber strong.

**Nitro Zeus**

As proven by the stats, if the other more busted Marine supplements didn't exist, Ultramarines would be the most popular faction in the entire game.

**An Actual Englishman**

Nitro Zeus wrote:
An Actual Englishman wrote:
Nitro Zeus wrote:
'Keeping up with the rest of the game' means exactly what Bharring said it did, 'possible to place top 8 at one of the biggest tournaments', which is something that a great many Orc players on this board specifically swore up and down was impossible - hell, hear it from some people and Orcs can't place top 8 in a 16 man RTT

.....And that is still a definitive statement.... but either way, "keeping up with the rest of the game" does not indicate to me "possible to place top 8 at one of the biggest tournaments". If you meant "possible to place top 8 at one of the biggest tournaments", why didn't you write this?

In fact, I find it incredible that you're trying to claim your entire point was; "Orks finishing in the top 8 at LVO shows that Orks can finish top 8 at a big event". No gak. That is literally the data, raw. Either your point was entirely moot, or you're backtracking because you've proven yourself a bit of a hypocrite.

Somehow everyone seems to recognise what I was saying in both posts bar you, but I suspect that's an iq problem. If you misunderstood it to begin with, okay I guess, it's not that difficult but alright, however if you still don't get it after all this explanation from like three different people, you're either nitpicking because you have literally nothing else and you're incapable of backing down, or you're just beyond help. Either way this is done because it's been clearly explained, nothing you ever say makes sense, you just deliberately take things out of context and pretend that you are completely bamboozled to the meaning! that you've conciously obscured from your elaborate recounts of what happened, and it's not even frustrating to watch, its just... sad.

Righto. It’s me that has an iq problem (rule 1 mate) because I didn’t interpret when you said one thing as actually meaning a completely different thing that is also entirely moot. Makes sense.

I’m not interested what others who jumped to your defence think. I want to hear it from the horses mouth. You’re sticking with the claim that your entire point in that previous, deep statistical analysis was; “Orks finishing in the top 8 at the LVO shows that Orks can finish at the top 8 of a large event”. THAT was your entire point was it? Well please excuse me while I sit down to take in this incredible statistical revelation. Wow. Mind blown.

You’ve proven yourself a hypocrite; as I said you’re happy to use stats to make sweeping statements about one faction when it suits despite your own claims that stats shouldn’t be used to make sweeping assumptions about a faction. Your mental gymnastics are astounding but the damage is done I’m afraid.

**Tyel**

Hankovitch wrote:
Speaking very broadly, I'd say that the ability of orks to pull off outlier performances is representative of their general status. I.e., that they can be powerful, but their performance is dependant on some very unreliable systems coming up in the ork player's favor. I.e., win first turn, Da Jump goes off successfully, a jumped mob makes their charge, the loota bomb rolls maximum shots on their first shooting phase, etc. And of course making absolutely no player mistakes on top of it.

So while a person might conclude that orks are secretly powerful and it's only this one guy who figured out the ONE WEIRD TRICK that SPACE MARINE PLAYERS DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW... it's far more likely that out of many ork armies present, he just happened to be the one to have enough of his coinflip-based abilities work to put him into a competitive position.

Or in short: an army that requires you to win ten coinflips in a row to win games isn't actually powerful, even if it occasionally exhibits far-above-average results.

Thanks to Daedalus for posting the lists.
I think the above is an easy way to look Orks - but note Poole took no lootas. It might by controversial but I dont think they are that good. If you can get 6 shots off with 5+ D^3 and somehow your opponent cant just gun down any grot screen and then the lootas themselves then fine. But as you say its a succession of coinflips. Against marine lists with easy 2/3+ saves its just not that great.

I think da Jump is almost always critical and so yes, dice can abandon you. As said though, especially that first marine list should I think be expecting to kill at least 90~ boys a turn. More if you got even a bit lucky. You cant hide that many models.