Daemonbombs @ 1500, 1700 (1850) and 2000

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**Cilithan**

Hey Fellow Dakkaites,

I've been playing the followings lists for more than a year now, finetuning them allong the way. The 'problem' is, I'm done finetuning. I can't figure out how to make these list any better. So my question is: how to improve on these lists? They can't be the best thing out there in Daemonbomb-land, now can they. I use both Word Bearers and Black Legion as templates.

1500

113 - Lord, Stature, Flight, 2CCW, Frag, MoCU, Pers Icon

125 - Lieut, Bike, Dark Blade, Melta, MoCU, Pers Icon

110 - 5 CSM, Missile, Plas, Inf, MoCU, Icon

110 - 5 CSM, Autoc, Plas, Inf, MoCU, Icon

101 - 5 CSM, Hvy Bolter, Flam, Inf, MoCU, Icon

208 - 8 Bloodletters

90 - 6 Daemonettes

120 - 8 Furies

168 - 6 Mounted Daemonettes

115 - 3 Bikers, Plasma, MoCU, Icon

150 - Defiler

1500 points - 55 models, 10 scoring units

1700

113 - Lord, Stature, Flight, 2CCW, Frag, MoCU, Pers Icon

125 - Lieut, Bike, Dark Blade, Melta, MoCU, Pers Icon

133 - 6 CSM, Las, Plas, Inf, MoCU, Icon

124 - 6 CSM, Autoc, Flam, Inf, MoCU, Icon

208 - 8 Bloodletters

90 - 6 Daemonettes

120 - 8 Furies

168 - 6 Mounted Daemonettes

156 - 4 Bikers, Plasma, Flam, MoCU, Icon

150 - Defiler

1700 points - 65 models, 11 scoring units (@ 1850 I ad a naked Defiler to this)

2000

113 - Lord: Stature, Flight, MoCU, Pers Icon, 2 CCW

125 - Lieut: Bike, Melta, Dark Blade, MoCU, Pers Icon

115 - 5 CSM: Las/Plas, MoCU, Icon, Infiltrate

106 - 5 CSM: AutoC/Flam, MoCU, Icon, Infiltrate

208 - 8 Bloodletters

90 - 6 Daemonettes

120 - 8 Furies

168 - 6 Mounted Daemonettes

156 - 4 Bikers: Plas/Flam, MoCU, Icon

175 - Defiler: Indirect

155 - Spined Chaos Beast: Speed (Or 2 Obliterators and Daemonic Essence on the Lord)

2000 points, 64 models, 12 scoring units

So Dakka, will you lend me your merciless comments? I think these lists have a lot of possibilities and can take on all Tournament-quality armies and do very well. But what do you think, thnx for the trouble to reply.

Cilithan out...

**Playa**

Hey,

Posted By Cilithan 08/13/2006 1:36 AM
Hey Fellow Dakkaites,

I can't figure out how to make these list any better

*Snip already depressingly min/maxed lists*

Wow, a 2000pt list with nine basic Marines. Still trying to outrun the bear?

Lists are 'best' when players can't wait to play against it, not when they can't stand to play against it.

Remember, the game is rigged so that you can never be as fast as the bear.

And being 'almost as fast as the bear' isn't as good as having lots of other campers. ;- )

Playa

**Cilithan**

Hey Playa,

Maybe I need to clarify...

The reason I posted these lists on Dakka and not on Warseer or B&C is because a lot of posters here are Bad-donkey tournament players and that's the context of the question. I wan't to be a Playa (like you).

I can be a fluff playa as well. As a matter of fact, last weekend I played in a 1000 point tourny and lost every game, mostly because I brought my Iyanden Eldar and not a Daemonbomb; I wanted to have fun and have people in awe over a nicely converted and painted list that was fullfy as well. Each game was a lot of fun even though I lost them all. (I did win something... the best painted Army award... )

An other side of the hobby for me involves making the most killer combinations possible and constructing all round dangerous lists.

*Snip already depressingly min/maxed lists*

Thank you, but I'm not convinced that they can't be more min-maxed...

Things I'd like to know is weather this (in 1500 points)

110 - 5 CSM, 2x Plas, Inf, MoCU, Icon

105 - 5 CSM, Las, Inf, MoCU, Icon

Would be better than this

110 - 5 CSM, Missile, Plas, Inf, MoCU, Icon

110 - 5 CSM, Autoc, Plas, Inf, MoCU, Icon

101 - 5 CSM, Hvy Bolter, Flam, Inf, MoCU, Icon

Anyway, hoping to get some more comments (from ruthless tournament playas who will tell me whats what).

Cilithan out...

**Darrian13**

@Playa, I think you lost me with the "bear." I am hoping that "the bear" and all this running is just some euphamism that I am unaware of. If it is a euphamism, could you please explain your"bear" and "running with the bear" to me?

Darrian
( Smokey and "the bear"?)

**spreshong**

Hey Cilithan,
Just dropping a line at what I see being played by tournament experienced players here.

115 - 5 CSM, Las, Plma Gun, Mocu, Inf (X3). Hope this helps.

These guys play list similar to your but have slight differences. Good luck.

**spreshong**

Hey,
Sorry, the above squad does have Icon.

**Longshot**

There are two basic guns you put on standard infantry troopers who do not have a powerfist. One starts with Las and the other starts with Plas. No reason to buy anything else (ever).

If you want to get uberly minmaxed, every squad should be 6 men, las/plas, mocu, icon, infiltrate (that means 4 dead marines to get below half).

Pretty much any undivided list can be better served by 2 obliterators than by anything else you can get for 140 pts. Sure, they die, but they also deepstrike twinlinked plasmaguns or meltaguns at a necessary moment, or shoot move and shoot lascannons from across the board, or whatever.

Not sure I would bother with the lieutenant without daemonic armor.

**ninjajuicer**

I would rather have two oblits than the defiler. Your daemons are your anti-personel/anit-MEQ units and they are darn good at what they do. The oblits offer both antipersonel (Heavy bolters), anti MEQ (linked plasma), and anti tank (las).

I would spend the extra 10 points on upgrading the HB or autocannon troop squads.

**Cilithan**

Hey Darrian13, Spreshong, Longshot and Ninjajuicer,

Thanks for your replies. So Las / Plas it is, in stead of me filing the points off those squads to fit more stuff.

In 1500 points I can do a few things with your suggestions.

Longshot and Ninjajuicer would like to see this @ 1500:

1500

113 - Lord, Stature, Flight, 2CCW, Frag, MoCU, Pers Icon

145 - Lieut, Bike, Armour, DarkBlade, Melta, MoCU, Pers Icon

140 - 2 Obliterators

133 - 6 CSM, Las, Plas, Inf, MoCU, Icon

208 - 8 Bloodletters

90 - 6 Daemonettes

120 - 8 Furies

168 - 6 Mounted Daemonettes

150 - 4 Bikers, 2 Melta, MoCU, Icon

1500 points - 54 models, 9 scoring units

I lose a model, lose a scoring unit but make four units tougher and pack a bigger punch. I must say I do like the list, but especially Escalation worries me. Having three 5 CSM squads infiltrating is tactically better than two 6 CSM squads and more survivable as well.

I need to test this. If I miss the third squad too much I can also do what was insinuated above and refit the CSM squads with this lay-out.

110 - 5 CSM, 2x Plas, Inf, MoCU, Icon

105 - 5 CSM, Las, Inf, MoCU, Icon

105 - 5 CSM, Las, Inf, MoCU, Icon.

At least, Spreshong and Longshot, these squads now have a worthwhile armament.

Some clarification as to the reason of my choices. The Defiler? I know it is the most questionable unit in the list. I included it because I have an extensively converted Defiler. The Dutch GT uses a points system for scoring your army and a WOW-factor in the conversion category wins points. After I included the Defiler for this reason, I tested it in numerous games and it almost always performs very nicely. The thing is, most opponents don't shoot much at it in the first turns because the threat of the Icon squads is bigger: that's where the Daemons come from. And if they do shoot the Defiler thats cool too because it's one shot less at say a Biker or DaemonPrince. Mostly the Defiler deals damage on a regular basis.

@Longshot

The Lieutenant would indeed be better with the Daemonic Armour, but as you could see by the presented lists: in 1500 points you have to make choices. And 20 points goes a long way towards a higher modelcount. You say you wouldn't bother taking it without? Remember that the Biker Lieut is an Independant Character and can be targetted only if it is the closest target. Also it is fast and not very big so can hide behind almost any and all terrain. Frankly I'd urge you to think about him again. I say without a doubt that the Biker Lieut is the most synergetic unit in the list and performs way above par in 90% of the games.

Another question for all of you guys. Which 1850 points list is better:

1850 Word Bearers

113 - Lord, Stature, Flight, 2CCW, Frag, MoCU, Pers Icon

125 - Lieut, Bike, Dark Blade, Melta, MoCU, Pers Icon

133 - 6 CSM, Las, Plas, Inf, MoCU, Icon

124 - 6 CSM, Autoc, Flam, Inf, MoCU, Icon

(I could shave these to 5 men each and give both Defilers indirect)

208 - 8 Bloodletters

90 - 6 Daemonettes

120 - 8 Furies

168 - 6 Mounted Daemonettes

156 - 4 Bikers, Plasma, Flam, MoCU, Icon

150 - Defiler

1850 points - 66 models, 12 scoring units

OR: 1850 Black Legion

113 - Lord, Stature, Flight, 2CCW, Frag, MoCU, Pers Icon

145 - Lieut, Bike, Dark Blade, Melta, MoCU, Pers Icon

306 - 6 Bikers, 2 Melta, Asp Champ, PowFist, Visage, Mutation, MoSlaanesh, Icon, SkRiders

115 - 5 CSM, Las, Plas, Inf, MoCU, Icon

208 - 8 Bloodletters

90 - 6 Daemonettes

120 - 8 Furies

90 - 6 Furies

168 - 6 Mounted Daemonettes

175 - Defiler, Indirect

1850 points - 64 models, 11 scoring units (but a very fast list...)

Anyway, thanx for your replies thusfar. Hoping to hear more, I like discussing Daemonbombs as you might have noticed ...

Cilithan out.

**Longshot**

Good reasoning largely. The Lieut as an IC does have some protection, but you need to remember your 'on the board' army is 12-18 dudes. It's going to be hard to protect him.

When you buy him demonic armor (increasing his cost by 15%) you effect a 25% rise in survivability, and hugely increases his survivability versus battlecannons, missile launchers, and the like.

I'd rather see him with demonic armor, or replaced by a third las/plas squad.

I still don't see any point in the bloodletters. 208 pts for something 12 daemonettes will do just as well (murder marines/terminators/everything), for fewer points.

If you can take more furies, I would do it. I seem to recall them being 0-1 in a non-night Lords army, but 30 furies would really mes stuff up.