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  If a Skyray is off the table, can it's seeker missiles still be fired? Why or Why not?

Page 31 of the codex:

"The missile is assumed to move in a straight line between the model carrying the missile and the target itself for the purposes of of deciding whether the shot strikes the front, side or rear."


Since we cannot determine the location of a model off the table it becomes impossible to follow the rules for seeker missiles mounted on vehicles off the table.


Also, I am a firm believer that models/units out of play (off the table) are not affected by the game and do not affect the game unless a specific rule says otherwise.

If you start to play any other way some really large rules issues begin to arise.

-I do agree that SMs can not be used from off of the table.

-Rule change suggestion: The SM point of impact is determined by the model with the ML...Off board possitioning then becomes irrelevant. This would also give the Tau a reliable form of missle launcher for teams with MLs.  As a bonus fix the lack of realisim that comes with SMs following a laser they can't see (ie. ML hit on front, SM hits back).

-HKs lack the fuel to fly in from anywhere, compensated by the fact that squads associated with them can carry rockets. (i had a feeling they would come up)

-I know this is a can-o-worms, but I think it could be a viable change.

good gaming

yes, it is completely unfair to load up a tank with weapons that can hit from off the table. You wouldn't like it very much either if a predator could hit you while in reserves.

I play Tau, but i still dont think they should get another bonus in the form of more opportunity for more cheap-shots.

The missile is assumed to move in a straight line between the model carrying the missile and the target itself for the purposes of of deciding whether the shot strikes the front, side or rear." [/endquote]

    But couldn't you resolve it easily by using the least favorable armor to you?

Also, I am a firm believer that models/units out of play (off the table) are not affected by the game and do not affect the game unless a specific rule says otherwise.
 If you start to play any other way some really large rules issues begin to arise.[/end quote]

   What other issues arise? Maybe guess weapons?

      The specific is saying otherwise. Seekers don't need LOS or need to worry about range. Squads that were off the board, would have to worry about both. Thier Spotters of course would have to worry about both.

   The fluff stories mention unseen shots from over hills and such. The rules encourage it with mentioning tactics that keep the tank out of LoS.  It might even make the Skyray something other than a "inferior" choice to the HH. Will letting Seekers fire from off table break the game?

    What I'm wondering is there specifically any mention of squads not on the table, being in state of non-existence?

    So any advice on dealing with Necrons in games with Escalation now? In particular Necron Lords and the accompanying 20 necrons appearing on your frontline..

     I'm still undecided on the matter..

   

If you decide that vehicles off-table are allowed to participate in the game, other than by making reserve rolls, you're making a game-breaking leap of faith. It's like targeting a unit inside an enclosed transport. The rules don't say what happens to the unit when it embarks as far as shooting is concerned, but once you decide to do something like that, you just break the game.

More importantly, is anyone really going to play that units off table can participate in battles, even just to the extent of firing seeker missiles?

No way.

Just stick the Skyray on the table and let fly. It's going to save so many arguments.

I think you should be able to do it but should have to make a test to see if you can. On any roll other than double 6's you blow up.

Ok, but when the skyray blows up, does everyone within d6" of the Tau board edge(s) get hit by the explosion?

Posted By yakface on 08/19/2006 3:58 AM

Page 31 of the codex:

"The missile is assumed to move in a straight line between the model carrying the missile and the target itself for the purposes of of deciding whether the shot strikes the front, side or rear."


Since we cannot determine the location of a model off the table it becomes impossible to follow the rules for seeker missiles mounted on vehicles off the table.


Also, I am a firm believer that models/units out of play (off the table) are not affected by the game and do not affect the game unless a specific rule says otherwise.

If you start to play any other way some really large rules issues begin to arise.

 Okay.. For the sake of this discussion this is the line of thought I'm following.

Premise 1: Units wishing to fire upon enemy units must be within range and within LOS.

Premise 2: Reserve units may not fire as they do not have LOS to enemy units.   Units firing in reserve can not prove that they are within range of any enemy units.

Premise 3: Seeker missiles specifically over-ride LOS and range concerns.

Conclusion 4: Seeker Missiles may be fired from units held in reserve.

 It's still wobbly on which armor facing would be struck.  Does that invalidate the entire argument, or would it be chalked up to another grey area in the rules?

 I'm still rather new to 4th edition so I'm not familiar with what other rules issues arise from support for this.

I'll say it again:

Although there may not be anything in black and white about units that are off the table being "out of play", that is essentially how the rules are written (VPs are awarded if a unit isn't present on the table at the end of the game, for example).

Once you start trying to treat units off the table as actually "in-play" you open up a tremendous amount of issues in the rules.

Librarians with psychic hoods start nullifying powers while they're sitting in reserve. Suddenly you have to figure out how to play Tyranid IB tests and Chaos dreadnought frenzy rules for units that are off the table. Etc, etc, etc.

And it is certain that you will not be able to fire your Seeker missiles at enemy vehicles because you will not be able to determine where the missile is firing from.


The point is, there are many, many, many RAW arguments that can be proved online but are impossible to implement in the real world simply because they make the game absurd and/or unplayable. This is certainly one of those situations.

Of course, this would be a perfect unit to use for large, multi-table weekend events.  You know the ones where the organizers let basilisks fire onto other tables, this would be the Tau response.

- Oaka

Ok, but when the skyray blows up, does everyone within d6" of the Tau board edge(s) get hit by the explosion?

Acutally I think the ideal is that the missles hit the 6 nearest targets to the board edge as they wildly fire off in all directions.

I think the only exception to having something off board (bombarding from space) affect something on the board is the DH or WH Orbital Strike, but that has specific special rules that allow it.

Right Sister Stern, there are a few examples of things that specificially say they work while off the table.

Orbital Barrages are (kind of) an example of this, but the IG Improved Comms vehicle upgrade is a great one.

Also, items/powers that are used before the game begins (like the Emperor's Tarot) would be used no matter what because their rules occur before the game begins.

 

   I see they changed the IG Improved Comms ruling in the faq. I like the ruling it makes sense, but I can't help but say  Go  Go Imperium!

    I do wonder how Orbital Barrages are acceptable, considering they are off-board invincible targets. Is there a way to stop one? It seems to be a different story while launching a Seeker Missile. The fluff seems to indicate that this is what it is for and in light of there being an Orbital Barrage option, I don't see why this is a big deal. It's a krak missile shot that Tau have to pay out the umm err.... nose for.

  Besides there does need to be LOS and Range for the markerlight.