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HQ

Master - stormbolter, bionics, meltabombs  (He stands in the backfield, reading a book, giving leadership; that's about it.)

ELITES

Venerable Dreadnought - TLLC/ML, extra armor

Venerable Dreadnought - TLLC/DCCW w/ SB, extra armor

Venerable Dreadnought - AC/DCCW w/ HF, extra armor

TROOPS

Tactical Squad - 5 w/ las/plas

Tactical Squad - 5 w/ las/plas

Tactical Squad - 6 w/ ML/plas

Tactical Squad - 6 w/ ML/plas

Tactical Squad - 6 w/ ML/plas

HEAVY SUPPORT

Venerable Dreadnought - TLLC/DCCW w/ SB, extra armor

Venerable Dreadnought - AC/ML, extra armor

Venerable Dreadnought - AC/ML, extra armor

 

I've enjoyed some success with this; it even put paid to a Siren Prince.  It doesn't seem to have much trouble on objectives missions, either, with the exception of maybe Recon.  I'm just curious as to opinions on it.  Shooty is how I like to play, which is why there's no dedicated assault elements.  Have at it.

That looks brutal. But would be way better as drop pods.

Quite an amazing amount of very resilient firepower though

Did you cut the demon prince in half with S10?

If the master was just going to sit in the background, then why waste points with a Storm Bolter, and Melta bombs?

djones520: Well... I admit it was laziness. The model is armed with a stormbolter, and he sometimes uses it, and I like how it looks, so that had to stay. The bionics and meltabombs... well, I could have given a dread a skill instead, but keeping track of which one would have been too much bookkeeping (did I mention I'm lazy?), and I did stick a meltabomb on his other hand, so it sorta makes sense... In most lists, it's his thermos, to contain his Earl Grey tea and keep it hot in case the battle goes past tea time.

Longshot: I'd do it as droppods, except that I'd have to cut out either a couple of Dreads, a couple of squads, or both. Also, that would require me to build pods (highly unlikely, due to afformentioned laziness) or buy them (also highly unlikely, as I'm a poor college student).

As for the Prince: No, he went down under the attacks of the remnants of a Tac squad and one of the ML-armed dreads. He just rolled badly, forgot Siren one turn... really, it wasn't my skill that did it; dumb luck is to blame.

I love this list. I want to marry it. I want to have like 10 millions of its babies.

Seriously, this would be a blast to play. What amazes me is that you still pack in 28 marines.

And of course, its illegal. You can only have 3 dreadnoughts, either from elites, or heavy support. And the heavy support ones cant be venerable.

Amazing how all you dread lovers fail to spot this...

And you failed to read the FAQ, didn't you...

http://us.games-workshop.com/errata/assets/SpaceMarinesFAQ.pdf ; lower part of the left column.

Like them or not, it's legal rules.

Burnthexenos, maybe you should read the FAQ's and Codex. What Heed The Wisdom of The Ancients states is that the Elite Dreads MUST take Venerable, and it removes the 0-1 rule on the Venerable option. Which means that all 6 may take that option. And with the new FAQ, there is no longer any argument on whether or not all 6 can be taken.

I have the same list, and it rocks, I love it too. Grats!

For fun, I swapped out a dreadnought for a techmarine with 4 servitors and a harness, then I made a little block out of them, with him templed between 3 of them, walking forward, he just repaired the damage on any one on a 2 plus, is he worth a dreadnought? Not really, but it sure ads some staying power to the 3 dread crew, and the techmarine conversion on the servo harness is really cool, its a great model no one ever plays. Might be fun FYI.

The one drawback is escalation, walking assault cannon dreads with shorter range have a tough time with it, and the marines are out there all alone.

Have fun!

The range issue is why half of them have lascannons, and most of the AC Dreads have MLs. I find that my AC-armed Dreads tend to die like dogs, no matter the level, while the LC Dreads snipe from cover and get lightly harassed. Could be that people fear the assault cannon over the lascannon.

I'm considering whether I should try to get a Librarian in the force; it would give me a commander who can affect the field more significantly, who can HtH in a pinch, and who can count psychic shenanigans (such as the Prince I mentioned). I love my Master's Ld 10, though.

Tough call. I value the Lib more though for fury, psychic hood, and character killing capability with the force weapon. I usually find target priority is not as big an issue with marines ld 8 and the options of vehicles over infantry works well with Las plas squads anywho. With all those dreads you can pick and choose anyway with Las/plas as insurance.

I would love to see an option to use a "Dreadful Dreadnought" as an HQ choice, I would deffinately add a 7th dread to my list.

As for having a Tech Marine, I use one as my HQ choice and have him in b2b with two of my ven-dreads so I can keep all six of my dreads in my list. Two tl-laz/ml ven-dreads, in cover, in b2b with a tech marine is a real pain to deal with!!!


Centurion.

Actually, if its not in the rulebook or the codex, it should be ignored. Your 6 dreads are iullegal, and you certainly cant take venerables as heavy support.

It means the 0-1 restriction is removed for the elite dreadnoughts only. Heavy support ones may not be venerable. End of story.

Welcome to the wrongzone!

Strike 2 Burnthexenos, I'll be the 3rd one to tell you.

 

I believe the old venerable argument has already been beat to death in a old thread and the new faq supports previous arguments. 6 vens =okay. I would love to play against it just to see how hard it would be.

Why the hell doesn't Russ just ban jokers like burn? He pops up every couple of weeks just to demonstrate that he is a total moron, and then slinks away contributing nothing.
As for the list, with a bit of points rearangement you could probably get all the dreads pods, which would make the list a bunch better (and pods can be made from foamboard in like 5 minutes, so you can't use lazyness or money as an excuse ;-)

Look, with the amount of crap FAQs GW have put out, im now just ignoring them all together, they mean nothing. The FAQ isnt official anyway. Its not official unless its in the codex or rulebook.

What the hell do you mean, "strike 2"??

Strike 2 as in, thats twice you've been wrong. Now your on 3.

First off, FAQ's are official. They are GW sanctioned clarification of rules. In this case, the clarification that "or" means you can take them as both heavy and elite choices. The GW websites clearly state that the FAQ's are to be used in rule disputes, hence they are Canon. Just because you don't like them, doesn't mean they aren't official.

Take a look at the Codex for Heed The Wisdom of The Ancients. "Any Dreadnoughts selected as Elites must be Venerable, and the 0-1 limit is removed". I don't see your confusion here. It looks nothing like "The 0-1 limit is removed for Elites only." It is an across the board wipe of the 0-1 limit, period.

Lord_sutekh I might have to copy this list! It's awsome...I was waiting for the debate to conclude before I went out and bought the other four dreads that I would need for such a list! Now that the faq's are out...ouch my wallet is beating me to stop squeezing it dry

I am becoming a hugew fan of such armies, low model count and an all or nothing type of attitude! I have my Zilla Nid's almost done and was thinking of starting an IG armored company, but this rocks!

Keep us posted as for any changes you might bring about.

What about arming your commander with a powerweapon?? That might give him at least some Close combat options??

Just my 2 cents...Again good list, it would defenitely be fun to play with/against!

Chappy P

Nope, ive been right twice, not wrong twice. FAQs mean NOTHING. Look at the way they handled the thing with the Tyranids. After that, im just ignoring FAQs all together. Theyt should get it right first time, in the damn rulebooks.

Burn: Well, then you're the only one in your happy little land. Everyone else, including judges, will use the FAQs. If we come up against each other at a Games Day or a Grand Tournament, I'll have your crow all baked up for you.

Pallantide: I believe in doing what a given model does best. In the face of Daemon Princes, genestealers, and other such monsters, a Master with a power weapon is distinctly second-rate; sticking him out there is, to me, a waste. In the case of HtH-deficient armies, he carries himself on stats alone. In order to make a HtH HQ, I'd have to pour a bunch of points into a guy, and might still be outclassed... make that probably will be outclassed. Add to that the fact that he's just one man, and he ends up on the short end of the stick; I've tried the solo-HtH HQ, and unsupported, they just don't make it. To support him, I'd have to tool out a squad for him... and that starts diluting the list's strengths.

As for changes, I'll be trying a version with a Libby (Epistolary w/ FotA and a bolt pistol) in place of the Master either tomorrow or this weekend. I'll try and report its effectiveness.

1) Games Day is once a year, and there are no tournaments there, so we would not play each other.
2) I would simply refuse to play you at a GT, and surrender the victory points. Im not playing such a cheesed out, boring, WAAC list. 6 Venerables is boring to play against, so I would take my 9 land speeder tornados, and go get something to eat instead. My 3 whirlwinds couldn't even scratch those things, and my 3 dreads would be bored, staying behind cover all the time, so they dont get shot by your lascannons. Why dont you use something that might be fun for your opponant? Drop the dreads to a reasonable number (like the legal amount, 3), get rid of the las plas (so boring..) squads, and maybe get some assault marines or terminators instead, so its not just a dreadnought spam army.

And the errors just keep coming. I played in a tournament at Atlanta Games Day this past year, and know for a fact that there were ones at the rest this year. So, try again.

So, basically you're saying that I should dumb my army down until you feel like you can beat it? That's not my job. YOUR job is to find a way to win. Mine is to build the army how I like, within legal strictures (and FAQs count, no matter how you drum your heels), and play it. Why should I change the army I like (and that is limited, in its own ways) to fit your interesting concept of what is and isn't friendly?

Also... nice to meet you, Mr. Pot; I'm the Kettle. 9 LS Tornados isn't exactly the most balanced-and-friendly army, nor is 3 Whirlwinds. Tau players must LOVE you. Min-max assault cannons much?

Finally, all the people I've played with the army have had plenty of fun; maybe it's because they don't feel your purile need to have the opponent "play fair" (also known as "throwing the game so baby doesn't cry" ).

No games day I have ever been to has had a tournament there. But I live in the UK, maybe its different in America.

You should "dumb down" your army list so its a bit more fun to play against. 6 Dreads aint exactly huge amounts of fun to play against either.

Your job is to make the game fun (see "the most important rule".) I didn't bring a horribly maxed out cheese list to the table, why should you?

After you have brought a balanced army to the table, then its my job to find a way to beat you, with my balanced army.

"Also... nice to meet you, Mr. Pot; I'm the Kettle. 9 LS Tornados isn't exactly the most balanced-and-friendly army, nor is 3 Whirlwinds. Tau players must LOVE you. Min-max assault cannons much?"

In fact, Tau players dont like me much. I can normally destroy their armies in a couple of turns, but thats beside the point. 9 Land Speeders, 3 Dreads (notice how I stayed within the legal limits?) and 3 whirlwinds is not cheese. The assault cannon only has a 24 inch range. My army is perfectly balanced.

It has something to kill infantry: Assault Cannons
It has something to kill tanks: Assault Cannons
It has something for combat: Dreadnoughts
It has Maneuvarability: Land Speeders
It has indirect fire: Whirlwinds

That looks pretty balanced to me. Whereas your list is an illegal 6 dreadnought cheese army, that has no maneuvarability and no indirect fire. It doesn't have much in the way of infantry killers iehter, if you are forced to advance to your opponant. Sure, it can kill tanks, but thats because its a cheesy, illegal build.

Burn, I hate to comment on this, but I can't help it.

If the army is as limited as you say (not much in the way of infantry killing, no indirect fire, no maneuvarability), then how the heck is it cheesy? Granted, it isn't that balanced, but cheese doesn't refer to balance, it refers to abusing rules to gain an advantage. Your post states quite clearly that you believe the list to be limited in effectiveness.

Personally, I think this list is achingly weak. Sure, it has 6 Dreads, but who cares. Even with Venerable, that is six models that can each be killed with a single shot. I have a DE list that sports 24 Dark Lances. If I fielded that list, All of those Dreads would be dead by turn 3. (No, I haven't run the math, but 72 DL shots should result in at least 6 Destroyed or Immobilzed results.)

Seriously, put away the vitriol. From my DE perspective, your list is as uber cheese as it comes. No matter what tactics I used, my DE would be dead to a man by turn 3. But, I don't think your list is cheesey just because there are other armies that would put up a much more hearty fight. It isn't the players' fault that GW doesn't create truely balanced Codices. Nor is it a player's fault if they create a list that GW has specifically stated is legal. I'm sorry if you don't like the FAQ's....no, actually, I'm not sorry....tough for you. For the 17 years I have been playing, after Codex/Army Book updates to the original rules have always been accepted as Gospel to the hobby. Just your not liking it isn't good enough, and won't be to anyone you ever play against.

Sal.

Its cheese because some armies just wont be able to deal with 6 dreads. Personally, I wouldn't like to face 6 dreads, its just beardy.

Its not "abusing" rules, its breaking them. 6 Dreadnoughts is illegal.

Unless you knew it was coming, a balanced army (like mine) wouldn't be able to take enough enti tank to beat the dreads. Doing some math...

12 assault cannons= 48 shots= 32 hits= 5 rending= 5 penatrating= 2.5 destroyed, but rerolled= 1.25 destroyed.

So, I kill 1 dreadnought, and 4 of the others cant shoot next turn, because of extra armour. Then, I get loads of lascannons, missiles, and plasma in the face, the dreads come back to life next turn, and obliterate me.

It gets more interesting if I used the maneuvarability of the land speeders to get round the back of these things. That way, my 3 squadrons do kill 3 venerables, and if I make sure im out of range of the plasma and bolters, should be able to take the pain from the missiles, then kill the other 3 next turn.

But the fact I have to get round the back to kill them means they are unbalanced, not to mention illegal, and cheese.

Stop saying it's illegal. It's legal by the FAQ, which are official rules, whether you accept them or not.  Prove the FAQs don't count, or you fail.

Unless its in the rulebook or a codex, its illgal. Thats as far as it goes.

Besides, the rulebook specifically prohibits 6 dreads in an army anyway. Page 34. It says so at the bottom, "you cannot take 6 dreadnoughts in a space marine army, you may only take 3".

Burn: What do you mean by saying ven. dreads and las/plas are "boring to play against?" Furthermore, what is the remark "making it fun for your opponent" supposed to mean?


I guess Burn's happiness is contingent upon the list/build his opponent brings. Wow.