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 FacelessMage wrote:
While I'm not thrilled with how this ended (settlement versus a judgment) I am glad that it is finally over so that he can move on with his life without it looming over his head.

Just hopefully it doesn't result in CHS closing, because then for all intents and purposes GW "won" and will probably try these strongarm tactics with others in the future, and they will have learned nothing.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 FacelessMage wrote:
While I'm not thrilled with how this ended (settlement versus a judgment) I am glad that it is finally over so that he can move on with his life without it looming over his head.

Just hopefully it doesn't result in CHS closing, because then for all intents and purposes GW "won" and will probably try these strongarm tactics with others in the future, and they will have learned nothing.

They would have learned that millions of dollars spent to slowly strangle the competition works. That the competition, one by one, would unlikely ever touch that monetary figure through 'stolen' sales is not the point. It's the principle of the thing.

Actually, assuming the worst, what other Mom 'N' Pop competitor would willingly want to go through the same crap as CHS? More to the point...afford to?

Edit: I'm musing here. I'm hopeful that things are less bleak than I allude to.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 FacelessMage wrote:
While I'm not thrilled with how this ended (settlement versus a judgment) I am glad that it is finally over so that he can move on with his life without it looming over his head.

Just hopefully it doesn't result in CHS closing, because then for all intents and purposes GW "won" and will probably try these strongarm tactics with others in the future, and they will have learned nothing.

But it seems that even if they settled now, the agreement (that we know of) acknowledges that every claim that GW lost is now a loss as far as established court decisions are concerned. So even if he settled, the precedent is set, or at least that's how it looks to me.

 d-usa wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 FacelessMage wrote:
While I'm not thrilled with how this ended (settlement versus a judgment) I am glad that it is finally over so that he can move on with his life without it looming over his head.

Just hopefully it doesn't result in CHS closing, because then for all intents and purposes GW "won" and will probably try these strongarm tactics with others in the future, and they will have learned nothing.

But it seems that even if they settled now, the agreement (that we know of) acknowledges that every claim that GW lost is now a loss as far as established court decisions are concerned. So even if he settled, the precedent is set, or at least that's how it looks to me.

Agreed, regardless of what's in the future for CHS now, there are still dozens of items on record that GW claimed ownership of that have been shown to be false.

You would think GW would just mold the products CH produces just to save fill the coffers. Stick a bunch of icons on it and throw it in the Dwarf. Instead, we go through this embarrassing temper tantrum reminiscent of my 3 year old.

Not to put them on the radar (although in 235 pages I'm sure it has been) Puppets war does the same.

Just wish GW would look at it as, "Look at all the ideas people are putting out to risk their resources so we can view if they are popular so now WE can cast them with OFFICIAL fluff...."

My $0.02

What a waste...

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
But otherwise, by percentages, and by virtue of their own stated aims, they have not achieved what they set out to?

If Chapterhouse is still doing business in the near future then no, they didn't. That was the only thing they originally set out to do, shut down Chapterhouse.

And then, presumably, every other third party company that sells bits or models that can be used on their models or in their games, because if I'm not mistaken they said they had a list of other companies they were "keeping an eye on" besides Chapterhouse.

I've used Anvil Industries before. I'd go ballistic if GW tried to sue them out of existence. They have Space Marine and Imperial Guard compatible bits, like guns, melee weapons, shields and heads. They have great looking some not-Space Marines, but they've also come up with their own IP and game with Afterlife.

I'm actually happy about this. The losses from GW are on record, and they removed the penalty (at least through the courts, settlement unknown).

Sure, they won a few things too, but this harmed and cost GW a lot, and hopefully they've learned from it. Personally, I bet the settlement was quite pro-CHS... GW did Not want to face the appeal.

I'm waiting for the definitive list of what a 3rd party producer can and can't do as determined by this whole mess.

It must have really gotten GW's goat to learn that the company that has caused them so much trouble these past years could not even pay the $25,000 penalty. Chapterhouse was a real life troll to GW in the end.

 Kimchi Gamer wrote:
It must have really gotten GW's goat to learn that the company that has caused them so much trouble these past years could not even pay the $25,000 penalty. Chapterhouse was a real life troll to GW in the end.

I doubt it, unless trading gold bullion for sand dollars was their intent from the get go.

I have suspicions that there's been some real egg on face for the 'legal sledgehammer' brigade inside GW. I'm hopeful we'll see a shift in behavior following this long and expensive PR disaster, especially with a new CEO. This is sort of a monument to the folly of focusing on legal aggression and ignoring the game and business.

I keep hoping against hope they'll shift tack and get around to tight rules, putting a halt on prices and bringing us back, at least, to the early days of 5th. Less 'Wayland Yutani' and more 'GAMES' workshop...

If you really do make the best model soldiers in the world, you've nothing to worry about and should have realized if these little 'cottage industries' are cropping up around your business, it's because your business had become large enough to sustain them, that's not someone 'stealing' from your plate, that's an indicator your business is doing well and you should have ignored it or looked into licensing...

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

If you really do make the best model soldiers in the world, you've nothing to worry about and should have realized if these little 'cottage industries' are cropping up around your business, it's because your business had become large enough to sustain them, that's not someone 'stealing' from your plate, that's an indicator your business is doing well and you should have ignored it or looked into licensing...

Or that the products they produce to plug holes in your own lines indicate there is a demand that could/should be filled by GW...

Thirdeye wrote:
I'm waiting for the definitive list of what a 3rd party producer can and can't do as determined by this whole mess.

Definitive list? Hire an ip lawyer. Anything else will just be internet opinion.

If GW's IP lawyers are anything to go by, that won't net you a "definitive list" either

Rusty Trombone wrote:
Actually, assuming the worst, what other Mom 'N' Pop competitor would willingly want to go through the same crap as CHS? More to the point...afford to?

GW have always been winning to grind companies down by attrition, but all this case has done is weaken GW's position (there's so much that can be referenced) and shown GW that pro-bono support is available for their victim. Since both CHS and the author of Spots The Space Marine got pro-bono support, and GW now has a much bigger reputation of being a legal troll, it'll be much easier for any new target to secure pro-bono representation.

So yes, they've maybe shown the can do it, but they've also made it an awful lot harder for themselves at the same time and really hurt their bottom line into the bargain.

 Kimchi Gamer wrote:
It must have really gotten GW's goat to learn that the company that has caused them so much trouble these past years could not even pay the $25,000 penalty. Chapterhouse was a real life troll to GW in the end.

They knew from the start that CHS would never be able to afford the $25k; they were just hoping the $25k would either force them to go bust or force them to settle.

First I hope the settlement was in CHS favour. I really feel for the poor guy going through all of this legal BS for 4 freaking years!

With the money GW spent on this case they could have redone the sob line in plastic....twice...

Priorities man...priorities...

 MrFlutterPie wrote:
With the money GW spent on this case they could have redone the sob line in plastic....twice...

They could probably have redon the SOB line for less than they spent on paperwork for this case.

Do investors get to find out how and what was settled?

Since GW threw everything at this case and was found out more often than not shouldn't a question be asked of the board?

'What the feth have we lost on you pursuing a small operation for $25k.

is it even worth those institutional investors finding out? I doubt GW is a big player in their portfolios?

Herzlos wrote:

 MrFlutterPie wrote:
With the money GW spent on this case they could have redone the sob line in plastic....twice...

They could probably have redone the SOB line for less than they spent on paperwork for this case.

Shhh... you'll make people cry.

The Auld Grump, yes, this was money well spent, Mr. Kirby....

Hope they get going again soon. I was all set to buy some golden chalice shoulder pads for my soul drinkers.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 MrFlutterPie wrote:
With the money GW spent on this case they could have redone the sob line in plastic....twice...

They could probably have redone the SOB line for less than they spent on paperwork for this case.

Shhh... you'll make people cry.

The Auld Grump, yes, this was money well spent, Mr. Kirby....

The decision to go after companies like wouldn't lie with Kirby, it would fall to the Head of Intellectual Property. Just like the blood bowl fansites being shut down, just like the C&D carpet bombing of various websites, blogs and fansites. In face the entire current 'relationship' the community has with the company, short of the prices, lies at that door.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 MrFlutterPie wrote:
With the money GW spent on this case they could have redone the sob line in plastic....twice...

They could probably have redone the SOB line for less than they spent on paperwork for this case.

Shhh... you'll make people cry.

The Auld Grump, yes, this was money well spent, Mr. Kirby....

The decision to go after companies like wouldn't lie with Kirby, it would fall to the Head of Intellectual Property. Just like the blood bowl fansites being shut down, just like the C&D carpet bombing of various websites, blogs and fansites. In face the entire current 'relationship' the community has with the company, short of the prices, lies at that door.

And as we saw in this case, Allen Merritt has no fething clue about Intellectual Property. Not what it is, not what the laws are regarding it.

With how much was spent on this shambles, I'd be surprised if Kirby isn't removed from the board and Merritt shown the door. They both flubbed this, at the expense of the shareholders money.

Thing is, Kirby is the shareholders, at least he is the only (allegedly) sentient being who holds a meaningful stake in the company, any stockholder with a greater interest is just a faceless institution that is more likely to dump the shares and reinvest than take action. Given the changes in fund ownership over the last year or so, we don't even really have the hope that someone feels compelled to step in to try and improve the share price to recover their investment, given the size of GW and the duration of ownership, nobody has been badly burned in wider stock market terms.

weeble1000 wrote:




What a waste...

I'm with weeble here... I was really hoping for something some clear-cut that made it a lot less likely that GW would continue to bully the rest of the gaming world with their, uh, expansive view of what "belongs" to them.

I'm sure GW will think at least a bit about taking this route again, but without the type of excellent (and fortunate) pro bono representation that Chapterhouse got, I'm thinking the little guys would still probably fold rather than fight. The stars lined up for Chapterhouse and the whole thing was, I'm sure, still hugely painful.

Plus, after Kirby's inane, and utterly self-serving, comments about the legal system, I'd've loved to see him really take it in the proverbial shorts.

I certainly understand if Nick wanted this all to be over, but I somehow suspect that all his pro bono help was also looking for something more concrete than a settlement. Wonder if we'll ever get the terms of the agreement. That, at least, would be interesting to see...

Valete,

JohnS

GW / Kirby may well have "taken it in the proverbial shorts" and paid off Chapterhouse, but we won't get to know the details of the settlement... I think it very possible we'd have still had a bit of a "mixed decision" after appeal, and this settlement puts the already "mixed decision" on record.

If Chapterhouse resumes business, I think that's all pretty good. If they don't, I could only guess that they were compensated handsomely for no longer selling the items they won the right to continue selling in the first trial.

 RiTides wrote:
GW / Kirby may well have "taken it in the proverbial shorts" and paid off Chapterhouse, but we won't get to know the details of the settlement... I think it very possible we'd have still had a bit of a "mixed decision" after appeal, and this settlement puts the already "mixed decision" on record.

If Chapterhouse resumes business, I think that's all pretty good. If they don't, I could only guess that they were compensated handsomely for no longer selling the items they won the right to continue selling in the first trial.

Might end up seeing something as some form of exceptional cost in the annual reports - actual big companies normally have enough expenses that they can hide payoffs fairly well...little companies like GW? If it is anything over 6 figures it should show up in some way, shape or form. Anything less than 6 figures...well, I couldn't imagine any real reason to take that deal (unless Nick was in exceptionally poor financial state after all this - which may well have been the case).

Though as someone with somewhat more than a passing interest in this, I have to second Weeble's opinion on the outcome. While there is some benefit to having this case in the record - there is also plenty of issues with where it was left. A large number of the claims that were decided in GW's favor are far too broad and many of those which were decided in CHS's favor should have been dealt with handedly by the judge without even letting them go to trial (seriously - as if there almost 25 years of precedent that allows for nominative use in regards to trademarks...even longer than that, they just coined the term then).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 MrFlutterPie wrote:
With the money GW spent on this case they could have redone the sob line in plastic....twice...

They could probably have redone the SOB line for less than they spent on paperwork for this case.

Shhh... you'll make people cry.

The Auld Grump, yes, this was money well spent, Mr. Kirby....

The decision to go after companies like wouldn't lie with Kirby, it would fall to the Head of Intellectual Property. Just like the blood bowl fansites being shut down, just like the C&D carpet bombing of various websites, blogs and fansites. In face the entire current 'relationship' the community has with the company, short of the prices, lies at that door.

Considering it was his diatribe in the Annual Report about his laughable castle...no. It is directly at Kirby's feet. Just like 99% of everything else that occurs - he is the epitome of a micromanager, and surrounds himself with nothing but yes men. The Head of IP is a warehouse monkey who has managed to survive longer than most and inherited the position due to attrition (and brown nosery). Assuming someone with absolutely no formal training in intellectual property law would be the one who will make the determination as to what will be the corporate legal stance regarding anything IP related is laughable.

Agreed.

One of the things this case has shown up is the complexity of IP law and the amount of misunderstanding among the public for example of the differences between trademarks, copyrights and patents, let alone the factors involved in each of these themes.

Merritt, despite having been Head of IP clearly demonstrated a very loose grasp of the subject. His basic stance was that of GW as a whole -- any ideas we put into 40K become ours, and anyone who makes a variation of those general ideas is a rip-off merchant.

Which of course is bollocks in itself, also GW's claims to have invented the whole of SF out of their heads are blatant rubbish.

We were also presented with an IP based company that not only did not own the copyright releases on some of its commissioned artwork but did not even know it did not own them. A fundamental concept of publishing that I was taught as a rookie editor 25 years ago.

Frankly this is a major embarrassment.

 RiTides wrote:
GW / Kirby may well have "taken it in the proverbial shorts" and paid off Chapterhouse, but we won't get to know the details of the settlement... I think it very possible we'd have still had a bit of a "mixed decision" after appeal, and this settlement puts the already "mixed decision" on record.

If Chapterhouse resumes business, I think that's all pretty good. If they don't, I could only guess that they were compensated handsomely for no longer selling the items they won the right to continue selling in the first trial.

If Chapterhouse were not able to resume business, the law would be a travesty. The original claim by GW was to put CHS out of business. GW lost 75% of the items that eventually went to trial, and were stuck with only the $25,000 fine.

It's strikes me the CHS could diversify into advisory work for other companies attempting similar projects. Depending on the exact outcome obviously.

With this finally wrapping up it would be nice to have some choice quotes of embarrassment from the proceedings