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Well, I am assuming that they're waiting with the Clans until they've got the balance in a better state. For what it's worth, personally I believe they've almost reached a sweet spot again. At least I think that LRMs and SRMs are okay'ish (SSRMs need tweaking though, the staccato screen shake is ridiculous), and I have also made good experiences with non-ER weapons due to their lower heat and generally close engagement ranges.

SHS are problematic in that it's already sad enough that they had to curb DHS in order to reign in the difference in heat dissipation, but it's still pretty much a mandatory upgrade. I think they really ought to increase the rate at which dissipation occurs when a component is submerged underwater ... meaning: reward putting heat sinks into legs - which coincidentally only have room for SHS.
Perhaps it would also be an idea to lower DHS hitpoints a bit, so that they break easier than SHS when receiving damage? You already have a harsh penalty in that you're losing 2 sinks (well, 1.4) for the price of one crit, but most of the time the entire component is close to being destroyed anyways as soon as this actually happens (if at all).

Whenever I play I take Company Command and order all the Light Mechs to form a spearhead toward the enemy lines, I have the Heavy Mechs try to flank, have the Assaults cap the enemy base(s), and have the Medium Mechs kill themselves.

My tactical acuity is formidable.

 Lynata wrote:
SHS are problematic in that it's already sad enough that they had to curb DHS in order to reign in the difference in heat dissipation, but it's still pretty much a mandatory upgrade. I think they really ought to increase the rate at which dissipation occurs when a component is submerged underwater ... meaning: reward putting heat sinks into legs - which coincidentally only have room for SHS.

See that still wouldn't help SHS cause think about it. How many maps even have water in them? Half? Of them River City and Forest Colony are the only ones where you could reliably use said feature. PGI can't build maps around water. That's boring and while better cooling in water is cool it's just not enough to make up for the inferior option that SHS are.

Perhaps it would also be an idea to lower DHS hitpoints a bit, so that they break easier than SHS when receiving damage? You already have a harsh penalty in that you're losing 2 sinks (well, 1.4) for the price of one crit, but most of the time the entire component is close to being destroyed anyways as soon as this actually happens (if at all).

Would work if heat wasn't broken in the game. Unless running a high energy build, the heat sinks in the engine are all you'll ever need (unless your engine cap is really low and then you're just gimping the mechs that are forced to carry extra sinks). EDIT: And high energy builds are pretty meh right now.

The solution is to honestly makes Double Heat sinks weigh more (1.2~1.5 tons and using them actually becomes a decision to consider) or to tweak the space inside a mech. Double Heat sinks have only one downside, they take three slots which is rarely a downside cause few mechs need more than eleven or twelve and you can fit them all in the engine on most mechs. If space were at a higher premium it might matter more but few mechs have space problems. Only on my Atlas do I have issues with space and... It's an Atlas.

When space is simple and Double Heat sinks weight as much as Singles its just dead brained not to use them. We can either accept this (which I'm fine with ) and use DHS as a natural part of progression in playing a mech or we can try and find a real solution. Anything else is just some faux fix that doesn't really fix anything (again this is a glaring example of where Battletech functions fine on table top but not in MWO's current mechanics).

This is actually something where Clan tech/Los tech could even help. Make them take up more space and produce more heat as a price for their superior power. Space becomes a premium in that scenario. Or we could just treat said weapons like DHS are now. Part of the natural progression of a player. Something that is grinded for and then done and honestly there's nothing wrong with that. This is WoT's model and on that end WoT does great.

Whenever I play I take Company Command and order all the Light Mechs to form a spearhead toward the enemy lines, I have the Heavy Mechs try to flank, have the Assaults cap the enemy base(s), and have the Medium Mechs kill themselves.

My tactical acuity is formidable.

Oh no, your that guy?

Every time someone gives a pug team orders they always have bad scores.

LordofHats wrote:See that still wouldn't help SHS cause think about it. How many maps even have water in them?

Doesn't matter if it's situational if it is at least a notable advantage. I still put SHS in my legs just because of this.
I'm not saying this is the solution - but it could be a part of it. One of many small situational details where SHS are better, where DHS just have a "raw" advantage in efficiency.

LordofHats wrote:few mechs need more than eleven or twelve and you can fit them all in the engine on most mechs

Wha? When was the last time you used an energy build? Maybe they're "meh" (though I'm doing fairly okay with them) because of the high heat and because you can never have enoug heat sinks with them. My Battlemaster carries two DHS in each of its side torsos and another one just below the PPC in its right arm.

As for space - I'd say crits become an issue quickly when you're really struggling for every single ton and try to shoot for Endo+FF. More free crits = more tonnage! Even having only Endo or FF (which I'd actually prefer; they're too similar already) can become tricky if you also slot an XL-Engine.
It doesn't happen often that I run out of crits before I run out of tonnage, but it did happen a couple times ...

I feel that making DHS weigh more would just lead to a different formula of progression where those 'Mechs with few to none external heat sinks gravitate towards DHS (as engine heat sinks still work at the x2 factor), whereas builds with lots of heat sinks are likely to switch to SHS due to DHS actually being worse for being as efficient as 1.4 SHS but weighing 1.5 as much in tonnage and taking up more space. Somebody would come up with a fomula when it's "economic to switch", and that'd be that. I would still like situational effects more, but that's just me.

LordofHats wrote:This is actually something where Clan tech/Los tech could even help. Make them take up more space and produce more heat as a price for their superior power. Space becomes a premium in that scenario.

A big part of Clan tech was that the constant tweaking and experimenting led to a miniaturisation, so it'd be odd to have the stuff being bigger than its IS counterparts even when it's better. I think there are a few pieces of equipment that are specifically said to be smaller, even.
The higher heat sounds like an option, though, and I think I've already seen similar suggestions on the forums. IIRC, Clan weapons "should" actually have less heat in the canon, but from what I remember this was never as big a factor as the size improvement. So let the Clanners develop a bit of firing discipline. And anyone else who wants to put a scavenged gun on their 'Mech.

Deathshead420 wrote:Every time someone gives a pug team orders they always have bad scores.

Phhht. I've seen it work. Just takes people who actually follow orders instead of still walking off on their own.


[edit] Hey, new patch is out.

Mostly just bug fixes, but looks like I got a free new cockpit item, and they made the countdown in drop prep go from 20 as soon as the last guy joined. Kinda misses the point of drop prep, but I guess next to no-one was using that time to discuss tactics anyways.

I'm not opposed to the situational effects, don't get me wrong. Like I said it's cool. it's just that on its own, it's kind of meaningless. It'll only matter on a few maps and even then only when in certain spots (ones conveniently lacking in cover too).

And I know about Clan weapons being more compact. I played MW4Mercs. The halmark of clan stuff in that game was smaller size/lighter weight, higher heat, and more power. But can you really make a medium laser smaller in MWO? It's just that in the MechLab, it's kind of a throw away fact. Players don't really care and it's not gonna be huge in game balance unless there's a Clan AC20 that's two slots smaller than the IS AC20 we already have. You can make them lighter, and that'll actually matter but You'll save at most a few tons depending on mech weight which would be offset by the extra heat that you don't have extra room to add a heat sink for.

Like I said, space isn't at a premium in the game. Ferro is often unavailable because you don't have the free slots for it but... So what? It's a marginal weight saver that usually isn't worth the 14 slots anyway. I only take it when I have the room and just upgrade the engine.

The big limiting factor on design in MWO right now is two fold; heat management, and do you want to take a hit to survivability to go XL? And the later is often a null question to begin with cause so many mechs have glaringly huge torso hit boxes that kind of make that decision for us.

Phhht.

I was referring to the guy giving the orders personal score.

 LordofHats wrote:

And I know about Clan weapons being more compact. I played MW4Mercs. The halmark of clan stuff in that game was smaller size/lighter weight, higher heat, and more power. But can you really make a medium laser smaller in MWO? It's just that in the MechLab, it's kind of a throw away fact. Players don't really care and it's not gonna be huge in game balance unless there's a Clan AC20 that's two slots smaller than the IS AC20 we already have. You can make them lighter, and that'll actually matter but You'll save at most a few tons depending on mech weight which would be offset by the extra heat that you don't have extra room to add a heat sink for.

IS medium laser- max range 9 hexes. Heat 3. Damage 5

Clan Er Medium- Max Range 15 Heat 5. Damage 7. (1 slot)
IS large laser- MAx range 15. Heat 8. Damage 8 (2 slots)

A clan er medium laser is more comparable to an IS large laser, thus representing a saving of 4 tons. In MWO, it would in fact be far more devastating if it retains the higher cycle time of a medium laser. Clan AC 20s either are Ultra or LBX- LBX will be lighter and consume less space, the Ultra will lead to 40 pts of pinpoint dmg with a double tap.

Based on this, I believe you are underselling just how much more advanced the Clans are. I very much like the idea of a Clan mod module, which would allow access to a single Clan weapon. It would be a serious choice for the IS player, and at the same time discourage boating. What's the highest module count right now, 3 or 4? That many won't make IS mechs fight like true vatborn Omnis. Clan weapons on IS mechs would also be a very reasonable candidate for ghost heat.

I'd love to see Clan customization tied into their honor score, with beginning players relegated to stock or even Prime only variants. As you behave more and more like a clanner, you have the influence to convince the techs to modify the weapons to suit your skill- but if you forsake your honor, back to the Primes you go! This is only fair to the Clanners since their Omnis are already above and beyond the most tweaked out freebirth cheese wagons. The best Swayback will never touch the power of a stock Nova on its luckiest day.

Edited to add slot count for the LL and Clan ER Med. That also matters, since you can put them in the head.

Well we are going to have to agree to disagree then. I think the game should be brought back in line with lore in a major way. Battletech simulator/mech simulator is the same thing. The game is about the lore. Not everyone has to be a big fan of the lore to play but it needs to be there. This game is for the fans and we invested long before the game went live. That's the reason the franchise has lasted 28 years(admittingly it almost went down thanks to the stupid Jihad era).

Weapons should not hit with pin point accuracy but be in the area as a nice compromise. I can go as far as weapon customizing as they are now for IS mechs but changing out armor and engines are a no go and changing out the internal structure is asinine, go change the frame on your car to aluminum tubing.

Clans need to be separate, they need to have a completely different playstyle and rewards system based on the clan system.

By using the ELO system in place now it would be fairly easy to do matches. Not sure exactly how the system works but pilot skills plus the battle value of the mech for each team member roughly balanced with the clan players. Done and done and it kind of follows the clan bidding system. You also now get 12 IS mechs vs possibly 6 clan mechs. Weapons quality will balance things but mobility and tactics will make the clans fight the uphill fight they enjoy and live for.

edit: clan module is a good idea, but no more than one per mech and definitely not in the near future. Maybe 6 months to a year down the road after clan release.

You're right in that I don't know the table top rules for clan weapons. But honestly that's a benefit because I don't care. Translating a turn based dice rolling table top game into a live action tactical shooter is starting a project asking to fail. What is balanced and workable in one quickly becomes unworkable in the other. There are no points limits in a real time game where players bring their mechs to the table before a match starts. If they fixed the weight class imbalances, we wouldn't even need a stupid drop limit that will force people to play in mechs they don't want to. This game isn't Battletech. That's a table top game. Mechwarrior is a PC shooter series and has at best only ben friendly to the lore not completely accurate to it. MWO is already like this, so while we can talk about what a game true to the lore might look like we're talking about a game that doesn't exist.

Col. Dash wrote:
Not everyone has to be a big fan of the lore to play but it needs to be there. This game is for the fans and we invested long before the game went live. That's the reason the franchise has lasted 28 years(admittingly it almost went down thanks to the stupid Jihad era).

Fan entitlement is not an argument. PGI has done a lot more to be lore friendly than many developers would and that's to be applauded, but Mechwarrior isn't Battletech no matter how much people wish it was. THe Mechwarrior games have always broken from the lore and I don't expect that to change. Creating a hugely complicated mess to stay true to the lore pleases a minority of the player base, reduces accessibility to a game that already has a high learning curve, and puts undue burden on PGI who already struggles to develop content in a timely manner. Not every beta player is a hardcore Battletech fan (I was in the beta). What you're asking for is player elitism. Where the people who give should get what they want. It doesn't work that way.

In a perfect world where PGI had an infinite amount of time and money such a game would be cool. In the real world where there are limits both on the developer's needs and the players, being hard core true to the lore just doesn't work. It's just not going to benefit the game at all.

Weapons should not hit with pin point accuracy but be in the area as a nice compromise.

This we can agree on. So many problems with MWO could start getting fixed if they just did away with pin point accuracy.

MWO is not going to be Lore Perfect. Much like ESO isn't going to be Lore Perfect.

I think it would be incredible if someone took the more hardcore sim-style games (Mw4?) and advanced and modded the heck out of it, then added a single-player campaign RPG sort of thing. It could be incredible, and sounds exactly like the sort of Kickstarter-funded, Fan-made project that seems to be popping up so often lately (the Shadowrun game, for example).

You make a good point, I really wish they would make a full fledged coop story mode. Hell I would take that over clans I think.

Yeah. I too wish for a campaign in line with MW4 Mercs. I know its not to most popular of the MW series, but damn I loved that campaign and more RPG would be great for it. Hell Battletech is definitely lore rich as a setting. Why isn't there an RPG should be the real question XD

BTW new catapult hero mech, the jester, damn I would love to use for my gauss/flamer-pult. Looks really nice!

Deathshead420 wrote:I was referring to the guy giving the orders personal score.

Ohh, gotcha.

That being said, I'd value a win higher than topping scores.
Fittingly, it could also differ depending on one's 'Mech. It is far easier to give orders from the cockpit of a slow Assault than a nimble Light, just because you spend most of the time slowly lumbering somewhere, anyways. Smaller 'Mechs may demand much more direct awareness simply by getting somewhere faster.

Anyways, I always feel fortunate when someone takes command. It usually leads to more coordination, and it just feels more like a military then.

Col. Dash wrote:You also now get 12 IS mechs vs possibly 6 clan mechs.

If we're talking canon then the Clans need to show up with 10 'Mechs on their team, and balancing needs to work around this. I'd even regard proper organisation as more important than differences in equipment, simply because the former is "more visible".

That being said, an option would be to make Clan stuff better without an exact replica of the tabletop stats. MWO already deviated from them for the Inner Sphere, so it should almost be expected for Clan weaponry. It could be resolved in a DHS kind of deal - clearly superior, but not as much as it "should" be, and thus allowing for compensation via numerical advantage.
I actually forgot Clan stuff has more heat, too, so this would work as another factor.

LordofHats wrote:You're right in that I don't know the table top rules for clan weapons. But honestly that's a benefit because I don't care. Translating a turn based dice rolling table top game into a live action tactical shooter is starting a project asking to fail. What is balanced and workable in one quickly becomes unworkable in the other.

I have to agree with Col. Dash in that I would prefer MWO to remain as close as possible to the canon. However, I still see the possibility to cater to both sides - staying faithful to the original material without neglecting the necessity of balancing. Honestly, just scaling down some of those numbers would already go a long way. Clan stuff would still be flat-out better, but narrowing the gap is an excellent first step. Perhaps it might even be enough.

LordofHats wrote:

Weapons should not hit with pin point accuracy but be in the area as a nice compromise.

This we can agree on. So many problems with MWO could start getting fixed if they just did away with pin point accuracy.

Remember the clans could and would bid down to points of stars. If they felt that they could be successful by sending a star and two points of mechs to take on a company of IS mechs they would do so for honor's sake. Likely in the fluff they would hedge their bets and initially bet two full stars so they could call for help if needed. Six vs twelve wouldn't be completely out of line for particularly confident and skilled clan commanders.

The Clans will very likely be structured much like Mercenary companies and House regiments when it comes to player-run units, though - and it'd suck if you could not have the entire team (2 Stars) drop because balancing is focused on a non-standard deployment.

Of course you could organise player-run units on reduced deployments from the beginning, but I think that would look odd and out of place.

Besides, teamplay is a huge factor in these games, and if you balance it in a way that means that a Clan 'Mech has an equal chance against 2 IS 'Mechs, the matches would be fairly broken simply because PUGs already have a hard time coordinating their tactics. Simply being fewer players (that have a mechanically equal chance at winning) will be a big advantage to Clan players all by itself.

You definately will not see three stars vs three lances. Clans are already advanced. At most you will see 10 mechs vs 12 IS mechs. Sorry, I am hoping and messaging on the boards for a purely point based system. It definately wouldnt suck, it would be lore and the way the Clans do things.

Clans do not use teamwork. Its every guy for themselves to gain as much honor as they can by killing the biggest threat they can by themselves. Leaders appear because they somehow can do the above and still keep their minds on the overall strategy. Knowing that we as players will break this and still work as teams regardless will give a large advantage to the clans even being outnumbered. Range advantage, heat advantage, armor advantage, speed advantage, who cares if they are outnumbered?

Clans do not use teamwork

And MWO is a team based game.

And being outnumbered would be a disadvantage far worse than any weapon imbalance. Fewer targets to take fire, fewer mechs to cover points. It would be nearly an auto-loss in Conquest and probably the assault game mode as well.

It would in fact suck. All it'll do is divide the community.

Col. Dash wrote:You definately will not see three stars vs three lances. Clans are already advanced. At most you will see 10 mechs vs 12 IS mechs.

That's what I meant. 2 Stars vs 3 Lances. Brainfart has been corrected.

Col. Dash wrote:Clans do not use teamwork. Its every guy for themselves to gain as much honor as they can by killing the biggest threat they can by themselves.

And how would you try to "enforce" this in a game where people chiefly want to win - and where teamwork is the best way towards achieving this goal?
One option would be to not give out any rewards to pilots who score below a certain amount of points, in essence encouraging loners and lack of co-operation, but I really think that the majority of Clanners would not like such a system and its effects on progression. And in pre-arranged matches, neither side would care about XP or C-Bills but just about showing off how awesome their unit is.

LordofHats wrote:And being outnumbered would be a disadvantage far worse than any weapon imbalance. [...]

Depends on how much better their equipment is... If the numerical discrepancy is only 2 'Mechs, I could see it work out. I've won several matches where my team had a disconnect, just as I got beaten by teams with a similar handicap. Teamwork and skill ultimately count for more than even an entire 'Mech, and more powerful weapons (and more weapons) could balance this nicely - although I'd rather see it the other way around, that the superior equipment is balanced by sticking to Clan military organisation, meaning 2x5 players instead of 3x4.

But as I said, it would require a lot of finetuning to get it right. I'm not sure how long that would take, or how frustrating it could be (anyone remember LRMwarrior Online? or the Reign of the CRaven?) - I just know that I would prefer at least trying it, before we have no difference between IS and Clans at all.

Hrm... Maybe give Clanners penalties for Assists? Similar to the penalties for Team Kills? This would mean that they'd all be attempting to get out there and score kills as fast as possible, would avoid firing on an enemy that someone is already fighting, and would focus on single targets instead of spreading fire to groups. Make it so that you don't get the Assist penalty if the person who had already damaged the enemy Mech has died.

Its the Clans, life is supposed to be more difficult and with all the advantages they have, making life hard will discourage players from playing them except the ones who really want to play. Anvil has a great idea and I think that part of it should definitely be implemented, or at a minimum, no assist bonuses.

Note I said in my part about everyone for themselves that it would be hard to get players to do this. We as humans are used to working as a team and even more so in video games which is why the point system will reduce this a bit as players will work as a team anyway so make the mech forces somewhat even in BV and skill rather than pure tonnage and chassis number, its pretty easy coding. Later in the Invasion the clans quit using Zellbringin(sp?) anyway because it was too big a disadvantage vs the dishonorable IS pilots.

Oh man, I can imagine it now- the pay variants of Clan mechs suffer no penalties for breaking Zellbrigen. What a cash cow opportunity for MWO!

I doubt they would do something so obviously anti-lore. I can understand them giving the massive leeway they have for customization from a business sense and for just general purpose. Doing that would genuinely piss a ton of people off.

It would also be easy to implement a system where the first mech to engage gets total credit unless they engage more than one enemy before the first is destroyed. Easy to implement since the game keeps track of who does what anyway.

I'm sure they'll find a way to make it both lore friendly and balanced, I just hope it comes soon cause id really want some clans now!

Hey, look who I found:

I don't get it Lynata? Who is it?

neither do i

Its a guy from dawn of war soulstorm. Made famous thanks to 4chan. Treat somewhat similar to Creed. Google says this is a link.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Vance_Motherfucking_Stubbs

This is what Google is for. 1d4chan has an article on him.