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Beef: a generous offer indeed, thank you sir.

 

Did I fall asleep and miss some serious fluff - since when are Marines 10 feet tall and weigh more than 1100 pounds unarmored??  I know they used to be described as 8 feet tall in power armor, but damn.

All GW miniatures have been growing slowly since the early 1980s. Bigger SMs is part of a general trend.

yeah thats why you hqave people giving them leg extentions to make them the right size compared to IG

Posted By DarkHellion on 08/12/2006 10:57 PM
No, the Geneseed does cause them to become genetically divergent, it is mentioned in the Space marine codex, and other fluff identifies them as Homo Astartes, genetically different than Homo Sapiens. It is a real genetic change that allows for higher muscle density, the ceramite ossification of bones, and other things that no amount of hormone rebalancing can allow. A Space Marine would also physically find sex difficult as only a few positions would allow him to not crush the woman, and he would have to mantain control at all times or he would snap her pelvis. At over half a metric ton unarmoured, no normal bed could accomidate him, no human female could move his body, and many other problems would occur.

it doesnt create a genetic change it create a hormonal change to result in these changes. most implants in a marine are all about hormonal secretions and removal of thing (poisons, toxins, small fish, you get the idea) these secretions can be something as simple as the super sweat marines have, down to the increase mellonine that marines have when exposed to radiation or extra hormones to prompt bone and muscle growth. so yes the marines have new genetic material grafted in to them but its absorbed/accepted in to their body and the hormonal changes begin. think of it like some one having a pigs valve added to thier heart, the implant is genetically different from then but is taken in and used by the body, does this make the person a gentic hybrid? does it change their dna to make them a pig? no they remain the same and their body uses the implant without altering the body. same applies to the use of pigs hearts and the possiblity of using pigs livers and kidneys (much more like a marine as its a fully implanted organ) then are organs that make secretions but they dont change the persons genetic makeup.

on the concubine/wench/family if i remember rightly there was something mentioned in the old RT days of marine concubines (for smurfs iirc) and i also believe i is mentioned in the origional space marine novel or the origional version of the inquisitor trilogy! also in the origional deathwing novel the surviving members of the terminator squad go off and found clans of the remaining clans people and in that it seems to hint/mention offspring of the remaining terminators!

well thats my tuppence worth in there

cheers

millest

just read dethwing, it does not hint or mention them having ospring. it just states they stayed behind to look after there tribes and return them to there former glory so they could in time be recruited from again.

I could have sworn my old second edition books stated that SM were no able to reproduce. Something to do with the genetic modifications - I remember going as far as to remember that their bits were removed entirely. [If you take my twigs and berrys you'd better make me a 9 foot tall killing machine cos I'd be pissed]

i just know they dont have any base desires left anymore such as lust or greed, thats why they are feerless. well apart from SW who still like to get there munch on and have a piss up now and then,

i just know they dont have any base desires left anymore such as lust or greed, thats why they are feerless. well apart from SW who still like to get there munch on and have a piss up now and then,

 Bad741 wrote:
Just a min- has anybody read "dead sky, black sun" by a grahm mcneil or something in the Black Library?  well when the two main characters(ultramarines sent on a death mission for not following the codex astartes) go to the iron warrior's homeworld, they find there are special creatures called daemonculuba reproducing new marines by taking old ones and using their gene seed to create babies.  why would the iron warriors do that if they could just have sex and make new marines?  Also Fabius Bile of the Emperor's Children uses "the black art of cloning" to create new marines.  if you dont believe THAT, read his bio in the codex.

These methods were used to create fully grown Astartes, not exactly reproduce. The whole point behind it was to rapidly replace their losses. If they were to actually gave sex and try that way, they'd have to wait until the child was born (assuming it'd survive birth) and grow up enough to be able to accept the gene seed. Every chapter that had done cloning did it to make fully grown warriors, not kids.

Very unlikely.

Even if a marine didn't have his sex drive totally trashed by their mental and physical changes, a marine is almost certainly sterile from the various changes to his genes and the massive amounts of chemical and hormone therapy needed to keep his body functioning.

And even if a marine was successfully able to have a kid, the kid would still just be a normal human. Possibly more ideal to be a recruit than most, but really it wouldn't be worth the effort. Much easier just to take the top from several planets when you need them.

No, they cannot.

There have been dozens of threads about this exact same thing.

Here's the gist of it: There is no fluff about whether or not Space Marines are capable of impregnating women, and there is logic to support both sides. On the one hand, you have the fact that retention of the testicles would be necessary to facilitate growth of muscle and the maturation of the specimen (see: side-effects of castration at a young age), so they would be capable of the act. On the other hand, you have extensive genetic modifications performed upon the Space Marines, which could indicate that the modified genome of a Space Marine would be incompatible that of a normal human female.

tl'dr: there is no conclusive evidence of any kind, and this is an argument that has been hashed and re-hashed a million times, with no clear winner.

Darkthorns wrote:

 Bad741 wrote:
Just a min- has anybody read "dead sky, black sun" by a grahm mcneil or something in the Black Library?  well when the two main characters(ultramarines sent on a death mission for not following the codex astartes) go to the iron warrior's homeworld, they find there are special creatures called daemonculuba reproducing new marines by taking old ones and using their gene seed to create babies.  why would the iron warriors do that if they could just have sex and make new marines?  Also Fabius Bile of the Emperor's Children uses "the black art of cloning" to create new marines.  if you dont believe THAT, read his bio in the codex.

These methods were used to create fully grown Astartes, not exactly reproduce. The whole point behind it was to rapidly replace their losses. If they were to actually gave sex and try that way, they'd have to wait until the child was born (assuming it'd survive birth) and grow up enough to be able to accept the gene seed. Every chapter that had done cloning did it to make fully grown warriors, not kids.

Did you seriously need to bring back this thread just to reply to something a guy said 10 years ago?
Is this a new Dakka record?

Hahaha I'm on the front page of this thing... ten years ago. Crazy.

It's been mentioned in a few books, marines are not capable of sexual arousal. The bits are there, but like a steroid gorilla they are shrunken an useless. They are also chemically castrated.

I'm sure it came up in the Jak Drago Inquisitor series of books when the Imperial Fist SM was with him towards the end, and I also believe it's mentioned in the Fulgrim book too. They can appreciate beauty but they can't get it up.

Like fear, it's an unnecessary distraction so removing that impulse is part of creating a space marine

 disdamn wrote:
They are also chemically castrated.

There is zero evidence for this. Plus castrating them would be highly counter productive for a super soldier as you'd lose valuable hormone production.

The chemical cocktail they endure likely makes them sterile, but only as a side effect. Its unlikely they deliberately make them sterile, its unnecessary.

I also don't get the idea really.

I mean narrative-wise there is a point- I've thought about maybe the Chapter Master of my Chapter descending from a single family hereditary line like any royal nobility with something like in-vitro used to continue the bloodline or even a directly sired bastard- but that would be both incredibly taboo and fething rare because Astartes have their entire brain hardwired for war.

They don't care about sexual love. There's some flukes (likely due to a lack of hypnotherapy) like the Space Wolves, but those are rare, rare flukes and otherwise the only thing that makes Astartes happy is warfare. Every lull from combat in their life is seen as something to be looked upon with disdain, they live purely to fight for the Emperor's cause, nothing more. There is simply no desire because those neural paths now lead to other sections of the brain. What floods their brain with various chemicals like dopamine now is warfare, not sex.

Space marines have XYZ chromosomes. I doubt that's compatible with XX.

 Wyzilla wrote:
I also don't get the idea really.

I mean narrative-wise there is a point- I've thought about maybe the Chapter Master of my Chapter descending from a single family hereditary line like any royal nobility with something like in-vitro used to continue the bloodline or even a directly sired bastard- but that would be both incredibly taboo and fething rare because Astartes have their entire brain hardwired for war.

This isn't necessarily impossible. Depending on what stage of puberty the chapter recruits at they could still have sired some children, before they get totally changed by the process. Plus some worlds, particularly Ultramar, have families who are proud of the fact that many Space Marines have come from their ranks, so a family heritage of some kind isn't out of the question.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
I also don't get the idea really.

I mean narrative-wise there is a point- I've thought about maybe the Chapter Master of my Chapter descending from a single family hereditary line like any royal nobility with something like in-vitro used to continue the bloodline or even a directly sired bastard- but that would be both incredibly taboo and fething rare because Astartes have their entire brain hardwired for war.

This isn't necessarily impossible. Depending on what stage of puberty the chapter recruits at they could still have sired some children, before they get totally changed by the process. Plus some worlds, particularly Ultramar, have families who are proud of the fact that many Space Marines have come from their ranks, so a family heritage of some kind isn't out of the question.

Well, the bastard was in reference to direction reproduction. I doubt anybody would object to in-vitro, if anything it would probably be seen as an honor in that case.

 Silverthorne wrote:
Hahaha I'm on the front page of this thing... ten years ago. Crazy.

And you were wrong back then about different species not being able to breed. Neanderthals and Homo sapiens= every human walking around today. Brown bears and polar bears can mate and their offspring reproduce just fine. There are a number of examples of this.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
Hahaha I'm on the front page of this thing... ten years ago. Crazy.

And you were wrong back then about different species not being able to breed. Neanderthals and Homo sapiens= every human walking around today. Brown bears and polar bears can mate and their offspring reproduce just fine. There are a number of examples of this.

That does depend on your definition of species. We're still not quite sure on the exact definition as things continually challenge it. Like Grolars. Its possible our definition of species is too narrow and many things we think are separate are really the same species.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
Hahaha I'm on the front page of this thing... ten years ago. Crazy.

And you were wrong back then about different species not being able to breed. Neanderthals and Homo sapiens= every human walking around today. Brown bears and polar bears can mate and their offspring reproduce just fine. There are a number of examples of this.

That does depend on your definition of species. We're still not quite sure on the exact definition as things continually challenge it. Like Grolars. Its possible our definition of species is too narrow and many things we think are separate are really the same species.

I'm just going by the most recent scientific opinion on the matter that I can find. Granted, like all good science, you are correct, it is subject to change based on new evidence. http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/anthropology/science-homo-neanderthalensis-neanderthals-separate-human-species-02284.html

Neanderthal and AMH interbreeding didn't occur anywhere outside of isolated pockets in Europe, and not at all in Asia or Africa. So, no, you're wrong. I've got a good paper on the topic of you're interested.

Your point was different species cannot produce fertile offspring and that is flat out wrong. Mules can indeed produce offspring, but only females. Hybrid males descended from both branches tend to be infertile, like mules. That’s because males have only one X chromosome, and if it happens to be one that impairs their fertility, then they may not reproduce. Females have two X chromosomes, so even if one is impaired, if the other one is normal, it can rescue her ability to bear young. But even that is exceedingly rare. http://www.denverpost.com/haley/ci_6464853.html

Edit: and I would be interested in that study. I knew some Africans didn't migrate to Eurasia, but I hadn't heard about Asian DNA being devoid of Neanderthal DNA.

You have access to science direct? It's behind a pay wall although I can PM it to you if you don't. And now you're getting into the pedantic weeds about specie definition. Viability of offspring is one of the most common metrics in a contentious field. Rejecting that out of hand is preference, not science.

 Silverthorne wrote:
You have access to science direct? It's behind a pay wall although I can PM it to you if you don't. And now you're getting into the pedantic weeds about specie definition. Viability of offspring is one of the most common metrics in a contentious field. Rejecting that out of hand is preference, not science.

Yeah, just PM me the info of author, vol and issue, I can get it through the U's database. I don't want to take this ten year old topic further into the genetic bedroom

 Grey Templar wrote:

 disdamn wrote:
They are also chemically castrated.

There is zero evidence for this. Plus castrating them would be highly counter productive for a super soldier as you'd lose valuable hormone production.

The chemical cocktail they endure likely makes them sterile, but only as a side effect. Its unlikely they deliberately make them sterile, its unnecessary.

there's two pieces of evidence for this. the Jaq Draco Inquisitor series. the Imperial Fist Marine that's with him talks about it. And also in the bulk Fulgrim.

and " chemical cocktail they endure" = Chemical castration

 disdamn wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 disdamn wrote:
They are also chemically castrated.

There is zero evidence for this. Plus castrating them would be highly counter productive for a super soldier as you'd lose valuable hormone production.

The chemical cocktail they endure likely makes them sterile, but only as a side effect. Its unlikely they deliberately make them sterile, its unnecessary.

there's two pieces of evidence for this. the Jaq Draco Inquisitor series. the Imperial Fist Marine that's with him talks about it. And also in the bulk Fulgrim.

and " chemical cocktail they endure" = Chemical castration

No, you should relook up what castration actually means. Rendering something sterile is very very different from castrating it.

 disdamn wrote:
the Jaq Draco Inquisitor series. the Imperial Fist Marine that's with him talks about it.

It's years since I read that one (The Inquisition War?) but IIRC the IF Captain there doesn't actually say what he is or isn't capable of - physically. The Squat (yes, it's that old) speaks coarsely about all kinds of stuff and at one point starts asking the marine if he ever "goes to visit" women, to which the answer is that "he doesn't let such base urges guide him".