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Hello Dakka I need help, my fiance has recently taken on daemons of chaos but she's being beaten by my high elves a lot. So far we've played small games full of melee infantry and magic. The problem for her is my infantry is consistently beating hers, even spearmen can give a good fight versus her infantry and she relies entirely on a small unit of bloodcrushers to flank attack. Magic can tip the scales either way.

The question is, are there any daemon units that can match or beat high elf infantry, particularly special infantry choices like sm/wl/pg?

What does she normally run? I've played High Elves a few times with my mostly Khorne DoC and not had too much difficulty.

So far it's units of plague bearers or bloodletters as her mainstays, units of just over 20. She used to use a herald of nurgle but he kept blowing himself up, since then she has decided khorne has the right idea in shunning magic and uses a kitted out herald of khorne in the bloodletters. Then a unit of 3 bloodcrushers. I typically have a big unit of spearmen, one of around 20 PG or SMs depending on what i feel like, a kitted out mage, great eagle and a noble on foot with a great weapon and armour but nothing else.

At the moment it comes down to whether I can hold up her bloodcrushers from flank charging my units. Her infantry can hold up mine, but that's about all they can do on their own.

The herald of khorne has an even chance of being killed quickly by my noble or even a swordmaster champion before the herald can even attack.

Phoenix Guard with a Standard of Balance should be able to hold off Bloodletters. They have fear, which negates fear. They have a 4+ ward which can be used vs. KB and blood's super high str and they have decent stats. The balance makes the Bloodletters lose their Frenzy they get from Herald and then it's gone. It's tempting to try and use Swordmasters or something, but they are just sucky, expensive Bloodletters (no KB, armor neutralized, no ward, pricey).

As for stopping bloodcrushers, you MIGHT try a repeater crossbow. The single shot ignores armor and is high str and on average will kill 1 crusher (if he fails ward). I'm not entirely sure how the multi-shot function works, it says all shots have to be vs. one target, but not sure if that means a unit or a model. If it's a model, you'll likely get overkill and it's kind of wasted. If it's a unit, that would be perfect for bloodcrushers.

Wait... Duke... I think he wanted help for the Daemons to beat the High Elves.

Oh, well bloodletters should crush just about any HE infantry unless they are getting great rolls. Get the best icon you have (stubborn) and it will help prevent unstable crumble. Same with nearly any of the other ones (except maybe Slaanesh). Regeneration Plaguebearers and ultra-cheap Horrors with a 4+ ward. Yes, the HE will inflict more casualties, but not per cost.

If you really want to get jiggy, Greater Daemons can basically wreck the faces of a near-infinite number of HE. Bloodthirster, Greater Unclean, Keeper of Secrets. Most HE are too weak to really hurt them and the GD will smash those T3 twigs. Not sure if you can afford a GD though in your point game.

How many point games are you running? I imagine flamers would tear elves a new one, lots of shots S4 wounding on 3+.

Daemons are pretty much the strongest team right now. (There new book is coming out soon I hear, so I guess we will see). I don't really understand how she could be losing... On paper (and from my experience) daemons pretty much rip through any thing they are put up against. The only thing I can think of that might be the problem (other then just being outplayed) is her putting all her cavalry in one group... If she isn't doing that I don't know what to tell you.

So far we've only done 1000 point games.

It's obvious I'm missing something with daemons, their infantry seem pretty average versus similar high elf inf. Let me throw some math hammer out:
Take a unit of bloodletters versus a similar points cost in spearmen, for 20 bloodletters w/ FC you can get 27 spearmen w/ FC. Assuming equal frontage of 6 models each the high elves get 25 attacks on a 4+ with re-rolls to hit, averaging 18 or so hits, 4+ to wound means around 9 wounds and so 6-7 unsaved after the daemon's ward save.

The bloodletters would get 13 attacks, 3+ to hit means 8-9 hits, 2+ to wound and no armour save means probably about 7 or 8 wounds on the spearmen. The spearmen have an extra rank to the bloodletters and steadfast, it's a pretty even combat.

Next round the spearmen will be getting about 20 attacks with always strike first and that will eat heavily into the supporting attacks of the bloodletters. Average 20 attacks, 15 hits, 7-8 wounds, 5 or 6 dead in the bloodletter's supporting rank means they lose a lot of their hits back. I don't think it's one sided. The bloodletter's CAN win, particularly in the first round but I think it's far from guaranteed. Fear and the first round will give the bloodletters their best chance but elves have good leadership - tips the odds towards the daemons but it's still not a sure thing and this is just against our most basic, cheapest unit.

So what am I missing, what is it the daemons bring that makes them so powerful?

Are you remembering Fear checks every round? One of the previous posters mentioned the Stubborn banner, but frankly, I think it's way too expensive.

Have her consider the -2 Ld bubble banner, especially if she's going up against armies like HE that are subject to Fear. Additionally, she could add in something like the Masque to throw in an additional -1d3 to the unit's Ld before the Fear check is made. Having Fear checks being made on Ld 5 or lower dramatically increases the chance of failure, even with a BSB around.

Additionally, while I know that you were trying to compare exact points in your example, you're just not going to find a unit of Bloodletters without Herald of Khorne; that's what gives them their Hatred. If you add in a 100 point HoK and a 100 point HE character to the unit for equivalency's sake, you'll discover the numbers are a bit different. The Hatred makes the BL kills into 9-10 rather than 7-8. If we assume the 100 pt HE character will kill the same two models that the 100 pt HoK will almost certainly kill, the Daemons win combat, and the Spearmen are no longer Steadfast by one model (unless my math is wrong, the BL would have 13 models left with two full ranks while the Spearmen would have 15 models left with two full ranks, assuming the ranks of six you mention). The importance of Hatred to Bloodletters cannot be overemphasized. As you pointed out, T3 with only a 5+ ward doesn't make for incredibly resilient combat troops. Bloodletters really need to win the first round of combat decisively; if they're stuck in a protracted grindfest, they'll get eventually all die.

Though, all things being said, I've never really thought DoC did that well at really small points because they don't really have any cheap models to provide mass to the army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Castles wrote:

The herald of khorne has an even chance of being killed quickly by my noble or even a swordmaster champion before the herald can even attack.

That's why the Herald of Khorne doesn't answer challenges to models that can kill it quickly; that's what unit champions are for. She should consider arming the Herald with something like Armor of Khorne and Daemonic Robes. This combination gives the Herald a 3+/5+ save and it can never be wounded by better than a 3+, so S values higher than 5 don't result in a 2+ to wound roll. With this combination, even S5 weapons shouldn't give him much trouble. Assuming WS 6 or less, which is what the HoK has, and S5, each HE attack with ASF has approximately a 22% chance of inflicting a wound.

Oh, and again, don't forget Fear checks at the beginning of every round of close combat. It's surprising how often they get failed, and units forced to hit DoC on 5+, even with rerolls, are going to lose that round of combat.

Also, daemons will do better the more you add. Try running 30 in horde mode. Those extra attacks matter so much more to the daemons (which is why, as mentioned) hatred is so important.

I find daemonettes with a herald do very well against most high elves as well. The lower Str isn't that big a deal, but the extra attacks and ASF are very important.

Yes, when fighting units like HE, Daemonettes aren't a terrible choice. They also have ASF with a Herald and have a higher base Initiative than most HE units, so no re-rolls to hit. Also, the base Daemonette has two attacks and Armor Piercing, even though they're only S3.

The bloodletters also have killing blow.

Yeah but killing blow won't matter a ton in this matchup. They already remove the armor saves. So only great against their characters.

Don't forget about Fear. I kept forgetting about it in my games since the daemon racial kind of reads as Immune to Psychology and Fear and most armies I play against are Immune to Psych as well. It is actually Immune to Psychology and has Fear. Against my friends HE army (dang swordmasters ) it has helped control some of battles I get myself into.

The HoK should gifted the 3+ armour AT LEAST and be in a horde (yay more attacks!) of no less than 30 typically. BSB may be worth looking into but can't remember the benefits and upgrades available that may be of benefit.

Even though it's a moot point when fighting something without armour, it's still fun to get a killing blow. It's an internal victory.

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db

Edited - because double dumbass on me for scanning versus reading

Several people have mentioned Fear at this point.

I don't think Daemons are particularly amazing at this point. Not terrible, but not the best.
They're tactically inflexible at this point level; I think you need to either go big or go home. A big unit or two with a matching Herald.
Plague Bearers might work really well against High Elves, actually. Especially a Herald with the gift that makes most of the b2b enemy's stats 1 (Noxious Vapor?). Put him on a palanquin, and all of the sudden 4 of those Spearmen hit on 5's, wound on 6's, and don't get re-rolls.

Oh yeah, 1K point game. I don't know if it's a great great option but Deamonettes with a herald are really close to being swordmasters. Both ASF, same init. The SM have +2 Str but D have AP. More importantly the D have a ward save and are 3 points less each and Core.

The high WS and low T is a weird thing for Daemons. Bloodletters are a bit overkill, but don't have ASF. If you could afford a Soulgrinder I think he would be very valuable. And he could just fit in. As he has armor, ward and very high T which everyone except Swordmasters are going to have an insanely hard time to wound (6+ with 2 saves). It seems my answer to just about everything DoC is a soulgrinder, but they really are decent.

I'd take a Blue Scribe just to try and punish him for spellcasting. And he doesn't miscast himself and can collect dice so on your time you can throw it all at his one spell. I wouldn't really try and outcast HE at this level.

If you could do the perfect matchup, I'd take a horror block with Herald and anvil his swordmasters OR daemonettes with Herald and go toe-to-toe, but I think they are about a draw, or pretty close. Soulgrinder can take on a lot of core HE troops. He's kind of like a GUO I mentioned above, just vastly cheaper.

The things that tend to scare me when faceing DoC with my high elves are:

1. Flamers. They are expensive and now nerfed, but the stupid things shoot up my expensive elite. when high elf units get small, they become useless.

2. Bulk bloodletters. as mentioned above, put them on the field in hord formation with a HoK and aim them at the enemy. the opponent will then have to find a solution... sometimes tricky with the +d6 charge banner on them

3. special characters. but they're stupid so I won't bore people with them (or the high elf versions)

not much else really bothers me much. Be sure to tell her that flamers should avoid shooting/attacking lone eagle riders or dragon prince knights.

war wrote:
Be sure to tell her that flamers should avoid shooting/attacking lone eagle riders or dragon prince knights.

Wow, did I learn that the hard way over the weekend. He hadn't ever played them until I picked up some flamers and they got wrecked! I only managed to kill one on his way in.

Daemons cure to High Elves, Herald of Nurgle with Noxious Vapors. If you are feeling cheesey you can throw in the breath attack as well with either of the standards plaguebearers can take. Then lore of shadow with the Tzeentch Herald to debuff the crap out of the HE's. The Bloodletters do decently against HE's but I have found nurgle works the best, just because elves arent heavily armoured and you can do some decent damage before they strike you. Not to mention poison attacks are pretty cool.

In regards to bloodletters, they will tear anything apart should they get to attack which 5+ Ward all the time pretty much ensures that, I just have better success with nurgle.

(edit)

Daemonettes arent that good when you can just negate ASF of the elves and give them ASL, not to mention poison attacks and s4. Where as Slaanesh core is s3, with armour peircing. Do the math.

Well, that may be true, but a Herald of Nurgle is more expensive. And Slaanesh stuff has more attacks.

Ya the 2 attacks is nice and can add up to a lot of damage since most elves arent armoured too heavily, and you will have a better save overall. So I stand corrected. I just favor nurgle I guess. Though I do have a Slaanesh / Nurgle army that I really enjoy. I find that I have the best results with Khorne / Nurgle overall.

I think the deal is, you can tailor any race to fight any other race. Usually. But an all-comers DoC race isn't going to groundstomp an HE army like they might someone else. The # of DoC armies that are taking Nurgle and those abilities is probably pretty low. You're more likely to face GW armies who are already ASL than you are an army of ASF.

Thats very true, i think the main stay is though overall it makes plaguebearers useful since due to their initiative they will strike last unless they opponent is using Great Weapons, so it really levels them out with some effectiveness, where as without the vapors they get chopped up pretty good.

I wish that the nurgle heros could be given an extra level of magic. I love the nurgle lore, but every time I try to build a list that is nurgle specific (or nurgle heavy) I end up switching to something else because of low/crappy magic..... well, that and the somewhat uselessness of regeneration in a nurgle army in this edition. I always feel like i'm getting riped off with only the one save after remembering how tough they were in previous editions.

I agree they were much tougher in previous editions, but they are still effective now, extra combat rez from successful poison is pretty nice. The thing I dont like about the nurgle lore currently is it is significantly weaker than the WOC version of it. Then again having a loremaster with shadow, and withering away toughness then slapping down curse of the lepper with daemons would be overly broken since it could happen in a single magic phase.