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 Janthkin wrote:

 Dave_Fay wrote:
wow no necrons in the top 3.

Necrons were playing for all the marbles in round 5...but it was a flyer-spam list, against 6 FW Sabres + a quad gun, all behind an Aegis line, on a Hammer & Anvil deployment.

He still had the chance to pull it out, and screwed up his last turn of movement.

I not only helped write Vince's list, but he borrowed my FW book and objective markers to win, only to beat me for the win on game five!

Really thought i had the win, but in a very rushed turn 6 I made some faulty (or forgetful) movements which narrowly cost me the win . That I.G list is great though... TOO great if you ask me

Being at the top table in the fith round can put the pressure on. I once fergot to dump a whole wagon of boys out after it blew up when I was frustrated in the same situation.

Hey guys, I have lots of experience against these platforms and know how powerful they are.

Okay the big problem is failing leadership and being auto dead.

BUT a good general will have his lord commisar or regimental flag near by.

Now stick them behind a aegis wall and you have to kill 3 men (you buy 3 grots for 2pts each!) and then 2 wounds per gun. So thats 4 T7 wounds with at least 4+ save before you even damage the '50'pts model.

The reason they are over powered like all artillery in the AA book is because when FW did the book I bet they didnt notice the rules for artillery had changed so its no longer a vehicle or randomised hitting. Remember they were armour 10 with any glance = dead. They were hit on 1-4, men 5-6.

With FW there are a few models which are a bit over powered but these things are way way way way way over powered for their points. As 3 TL lascannons with 3 extra men = 156 compared to 3 lascannons from codex 105pts. 3 TL weapons and toughness 7 models with 4 wounds each for just 51pts more....

Then you also get interceptor and skyfire. Seriously? fluff wise.. guards men are more reactive than a space marine heavy weapons squad...

I even know dirty tactics you can do with them but I wont tell as its so awfully cheesy its stupid.

Best way to fight them is to kill the stuff that helps them past LD tests first and then shoot at them. OR JAWS them = instant death.

Cheers

Chris

Just want to say a huge thanks to Team Zero Comp for organizing a great event! This was my first GT and I'm glad I could make it out to show everybody that 5th edition Venom Spam is happily alive and well

Thanks to my five opponents Nick, Will, Mike, Alex and Kevin for some great games of 40k.
I certainly didn't mind the barricades and cute cosplay spectators one bit, even after one pair jumped the fence to thumb through my codex (turns out they were just curious about the game).

This was an excellent event and I'll definitely be back next year!

-Ian

@Alex

Not too good at all, IMO. Vince got good match-ups, some good luck (he kept hitting things with his MoO! haha) and played very well. It was his weekend!

If he would have played Youngblood's Pod Wolves or Janthkin's Nids I think that would have been really tough for him.

@Ian

Great to have you and glad you had a good time! Welcome to CA!

Vince, IG player who won here.

I didn't expect to get this much flak from other players for NOT bending to the new hotness (Vendetta) and instead sticking with Guardsmen + Tanks.

If there's any questions, I'll settle it as best I can.

They are simply a replacement for a Heavy Weapons Squad, I cannot combine them with squads of infantry, which means they are W2 LD7 at T7 with a 3+ (per Sabre). I lost half of them in 3 out of 5 games, and they really were only effective against what I call the DEldar Yacht Club and Cron Air list.

For the guy who called them overpowered because of their relative cost to the codex HWS, anyone who plays IG knows all too well how pathetically over-costed that squad is. 105 points for what amounts to 6 Guardsmen (T3 5+ LD 7)? I get that hating on IG is always fun for Xeno players, but at least try to be reasonable.

umbo wrote:
Hey guys, I have lots of experience against these platforms and know how powerful they are.

Okay the big problem is failing leadership and being auto dead.

BUT a good general will have his lord commisar or regimental flag near by.

Now stick them behind a aegis wall and you have to kill 3 men (you buy 3 grots for 2pts each!) and then 2 wounds per gun. So thats 4 T7 wounds with at least 4+ save before you even damage the '50'pts model.

The reason they are over powered like all artillery in the AA book is because when FW did the book I bet they didnt notice the rules for artillery had changed so its no longer a vehicle or randomised hitting. Remember they were armour 10 with any glance = dead. They were hit on 1-4, men 5-6.

With FW there are a few models which are a bit over powered but these things are way way way way way over powered for their points. As 3 TL lascannons with 3 extra men = 156 compared to 3 lascannons from codex 105pts. 3 TL weapons and toughness 7 models with 4 wounds each for just 51pts more....

Then you also get interceptor and skyfire. Seriously? fluff wise.. guards men are more reactive than a space marine heavy weapons squad...

I even know dirty tactics you can do with them but I wont tell as its so awfully cheesy its stupid.

Best way to fight them is to kill the stuff that helps them past LD tests first and then shoot at them. OR JAWS them = instant death.

Cheers

Chris

So can someone clarify if they are Heavy weapon teams or artillery? If they only have 6 guys its not so bad but the interceptor, skyfire, twin linked lascannons (if they are artillery) for 50 more points then grot artillery is still a little overpowered.

 Grimgob wrote:

umbo wrote:
Hey guys, I have lots of experience against these platforms and know how powerful they are.

Okay the big problem is failing leadership and being auto dead.

BUT a good general will have his lord commisar or regimental flag near by.

Now stick them behind a aegis wall and you have to kill 3 men (you buy 3 grots for 2pts each!) and then 2 wounds per gun. So thats 4 T7 wounds with at least 4+ save before you even damage the '50'pts model.

The reason they are over powered like all artillery in the AA book is because when FW did the book I bet they didnt notice the rules for artillery had changed so its no longer a vehicle or randomised hitting. Remember they were armour 10 with any glance = dead. They were hit on 1-4, men 5-6.

With FW there are a few models which are a bit over powered but these things are way way way way way over powered for their points. As 3 TL lascannons with 3 extra men = 156 compared to 3 lascannons from codex 105pts. 3 TL weapons and toughness 7 models with 4 wounds each for just 51pts more....

Then you also get interceptor and skyfire. Seriously? fluff wise.. guards men are more reactive than a space marine heavy weapons squad...

I even know dirty tactics you can do with them but I wont tell as its so awfully cheesy its stupid.

Best way to fight them is to kill the stuff that helps them past LD tests first and then shoot at them. OR JAWS them = instant death.

Cheers

Chris

So can someone clarify if they are Heavy weapon teams or artillery? If they only have 6 guys its not so bad but the interceptor, skyfire, twin linked lascannons (if they are artillery) for 50 more points then grot artillery is still a little overpowered.

I can clarify, they are Immobile Artillery.

And the gentleman is incorrect about the number of Guardsmen, there are THREE Guardsmen present when the squad is purchased.

Well played Vince,

Okay 105pts is over priced for the lascannon hw teams.

But are you saying 156pts is a fair price for the guns? btw I play guard and have used them many times

Now if I have the rules right you can do the following.

Stick the 3 extra gun men you buy for 2pts in front of the 3 guns so enemy has to kill these before it can wound the any gun (unless it gets a good flank shot). So it can easily be 5 wounds taken when the first gun actually dies. At toughness 7 with 4+ cover save with men, 3+ armour with the gun. If you do the maths they are incredibly point efficient.

I am not trying to give anyone flak for winning with these at all. I was just trying to explain why I think they are OP and what FW did wrong.

Plus if one of the guns is going to get hit hard by something (deathray, plasma leman etc), well the men who are the closest can go to ground for 2+ cover save. Then be given the order to get back into the fight and fire again. Plus with the orders to make enemies reroll cover saves. Now they dont need the TL order. They are just so good.

And I will say if I was entering a tournament as guard I WOULD take them too.

Cheers

Umbo


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can buy 3 extra men for 2pts each (1 per platform). why wouldnt you spend these 2pts? extra t7 wound :-)

 Reecius wrote:
@Alex

Not too good at all, IMO. Vince got good match-ups, some good luck (he kept hitting things with his MoO! haha) and played very well. It was his weekend!

If he would have played Youngblood's Pod Wolves or Janthkin's Nids I think that would have been really tough for him.

@Ian

Great to have you and glad you had a good time! Welcome to CA!

It certainly was! but we all had fun and I can't wait for next year. there needs to be more of these tourneys during awesome cons/expos

@Vince

Hey dude, I know you don't go on the internet much, but everyone here is really reasonable, don't take offense to stuff people say. It's super easy to misconstrue what they mean. Give folks the benefit of the doubt and you can avoid silly flame wars.

Congratz on your win!

umbo wrote:
Well played Vince,

Okay 105pts is over priced for the lascannon hw teams.

But are you saying 156pts is a fair price for the guns? btw I play guard and have used them many times

Now if I have the rules right you can do the following.

Stick the 3 extra gun men you buy for 2pts in front of the 3 guns so enemy has to kill these before it can wound the any gun (unless it gets a good flank shot). So it can easily be 5 wounds taken when the first gun actually dies. At toughness 7 with 4+ cover save with men, 3+ armour with the gun. If you do the maths they are incredibly point efficient.

I am not trying to give anyone flak for winning with these at all. I was just trying to explain why I think they are OP and what FW did wrong.

Plus if one of the guns is going to get hit hard by something (deathray, plasma leman etc), well the men who are the closest can go to ground for 2+ cover save. Then be given the order to get back into the fight and fire again. Plus with the orders to make enemies reroll cover saves. Now they dont need the TL order. They are just so good.

And I will say if I was entering a tournament as guard I WOULD take them too.

Cheers

Umbo


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can buy 3 extra men for 2pts each (1 per platform). why wouldnt you spend these 2pts? extra t7 wound :-)

Because I didn't have the points in my list, and that's not a lie.

I don't believe they can benefit from Go To Ground, since all shooting is resolved against the gun (which obviously is quite large and can't duck).

And no, I honestly don't believe they are overpowered or under-priced. If you consider IG's other AA options (Vendetta, 130 points/ Hydra, 75 points) they fit right in just fine, especially at LD 7 where you only have to knock off one platform to force a test.

Also, you mentioned in your last post that I could've spread the wounds around; I may be mistaken but don't I have to remove models fully before moving to the next one according to the BRB? So really, you only have to force 2 failed 3+ saves to force a test.

yeah I am not looking to annoy anyone with my post. Or put a downer on the win for you. I probably should I done another thread on the platforms later so it didnt do that. sorry for that

 Reecius wrote:
@Vince

Hey dude, I know you don't go on the internet much, but everyone here is really reasonable, don't take offense to stuff people say. It's super easy to misconstrue what they mean. Give folks the benefit of the doubt and you can avoid silly flame wars.

Congratz on your win!

Thanks, I'm not offended in the least and I'm not trying to flame at all, if I am then I hope Umbo and whoever else will accept an apology.

But it did hurt you said my list "Wasn't too good IMO" hahaha.

yeah thats true about the leadership issue. A real killer as you fail and dead.

I put lord commisar with one and create a ld 10 bubble. Or the flag.

I believe the men can go to ground and if you put the men infront of the gun (3 guys you can buy). I think they get the bonus cover save but yeah gun cant go to ground.

I use the lascannons and the heavy stubbers 18 shots :-)

umbo wrote:
yeah thats true about the leadership issue. A real killer as you fail and dead.

I put lord commisar with one and create a ld 10 bubble. Or the flag.

I believe the men can go to ground and if you put the men infront of the gun (3 guys you can buy). I think they get the bonus cover save but yeah gun cant go to ground.

I use the lascannons and the heavy stubbers 18 shots :-)

I was looking at the stubbers actually in case I ever decide to add more platforms. Not only do they look good but they seem like they'd be pretty solid anti-infantry.

reroll cover saves order.

goodbye orks or nids hoards.

Which seem to more popular

@Vince

I wasn't implying that you were flipping out, sorry if I came across that way. Only that I have seen them start like that soooo many times! haha, just trying to help.

And I said your list wasn't TOO good, not TO good. Meaning, I didn't think it was OP, not that it was bad! haha, see how easy it is to misconstrue things on the internet!

@Umbo

Wasn't implying you were flaming either. Your input is appreciated!

I was just trying to clarify for myself because you didnt seem to know either Reece. I was only saying if they had 20 gaurdsmen with them they were broken. As they sit now they are OP in my opinion but don't find fault with anyone bringing them if it was in the rules. I also think the breaching drill is a little OP but think Tau Tetras should be included in the Tau codex, FW is hit or miss with me but not really balenced.

Fair enough. I think the sabres are a good thing as they mitigate flyers. As most armies can ally with ig, most armies can take them. I see that as a win.

I agree that breaching drills are too good for the points. Dugg brought 2 and lost 2 games!

But you know what I think is more op than either? Psykotroke grenades, purifiers, psycannons, night scythes, mind shackle scarabs, runes of warding, rerollable 2+ saves, lash, doom with iron arm, meph with iron arm, long fangs, grey Hunters, deff rollas, wolf standards, jotww, saint Celestine, etc., etc., etc.

The game isn't balanced now. So adding in cool stuff that brings diversity to the game and armies only makes it more enjoyable aesthetically and tactically, IMO. The only difference is familiarity.

 Reecius wrote:
Fair enough. I think the sabres are a good thing as they mitigate flyers. As most armies can ally with ig, most armies can take them. I see that as a win.

I agree that breaching drills are too good for the points. Dugg brought 2 and lost 2 games!

But you know what I think is more op than either? Psykotroke grenades, purifiers, psycannons, night scythes, mind shackle scarabs, runes of warding, rerollable 2+ saves, lash, doom with iron arm, meph with iron arm, long fangs, grey Hunters, deff rollas, wolf standards, jotww, saint Celestine, etc., etc., etc.

The game isn't balanced now. So adding in cool stuff that brings diversity to the game and armies only makes it more enjoyable aesthetically and tactically, IMO. The only difference is familiarity.

I like how nothing from the Dark Eldar codex makes the short list of cheese. Or is that covered by the second etc.?

 Loch wrote:

 Reecius wrote:
Fair enough. I think the sabres are a good thing as they mitigate flyers. As most armies can ally with ig, most armies can take them. I see that as a win.

I agree that breaching drills are too good for the points. Dugg brought 2 and lost 2 games!

But you know what I think is more op than either? Psykotroke grenades, purifiers, psycannons, night scythes, mind shackle scarabs, runes of warding, rerollable 2+ saves, lash, doom with iron arm, meph with iron arm, long fangs, grey Hunters, deff rollas, wolf standards, jotww, saint Celestine, etc., etc., etc.

The game isn't balanced now. So adding in cool stuff that brings diversity to the game and armies only makes it more enjoyable aesthetically and tactically, IMO. The only difference is familiarity.

I like how nothing from the Dark Eldar codex makes the short list of cheese. Or is that covered by the second etc.?

It's covered by the 2+ rerollable saves probably... lol. Breaching drills are mean. They almost wiped out my harlies.

 Reecius wrote:


The game isn't balanced now. So adding in cool stuff that brings diversity to the game and armies only makes it more enjoyable aesthetically and tactically, IMO. The only difference is familiarity.

Preach on brutha. Sounds like a great event, one day I'll quit being so broke and start going to events again...

Congrats to all the winners, pics?

Game isn't balanced now? That's interesting and news to me

Congrats on another solid event buddy. Wish I was still in Cali to attend all the stuff you guys are running.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Game isn't balanced now? That's interesting and news to me

Congrats on another solid event buddy. Wish I was still in Cali to attend all the stuff you guys are running.

I have to agree. I was under the impression the entire reason you guys don't run Comp is because the game has an inherent comp system built into the codices. If the game is truly imbalanced then there is no inherent comp system in the codices themselves. Don't get me wrong I am not for a comp system in anyway, and I support your events with my attendance as often as possible, but your statement about balance seems contrary to your tournament organizing groups creed.

Ah, the Breaching Drill on paper seems very OP for its points. The facts are very different. For my 5 games they only made back their points 2 out of the 5 games. With all my play testing with them Im at about a 20-30% return on their points (points earned/killed vs point cost of drill) I've been play testing them and I've even mishaped with one in a game and my opponent was nice enough to place it on my Colossus and PCS which both went up in flames. *Sidenote being an Ork player at heart I thought this was pretty damn funny. I get a follow up turn with them about 25% on average, 11/10/10, opentopped and 2 hull pts they don't stick around.

Tacticly, they are pretty cool. A Vet or Engineer squad comes out of the hole the following turn and do not suffer damage when the Drill explodes which is nice.

I did have 2 this time around and dropped 1 bikerNob+ Klaw to add that second one. Btw, that BikerNob i dropped earns about triple it's points every game.

For anyone thinking they want to go out and drop the $ on drills be careful. They aren't cheap "$" and you really have to make sure they work in your list, they are a very easy kill point and they are IG so they Scatter and do bad things, even to your units.

My Vulture and Platforms didn't get here in time for me to have them this tournament so you will be seeing them down the road. I'm going full on Death Korp of Krieg, my dream Army, so I won't be playing those until they are all painted up.

Also, I think the word OP gets used way to much. There are some very strong Units, on paper, but with 6th there is this HUGE opening for everyone to use a large variety of these Strong units. Sure, in the Tournament scene you will see these units but I also think you will see more bad match ups due to the variety of options 6th gives us. I'm sure the Naive player that gets a bad match up and gets crushed by it will blame it on OP units and Army's, but it's my opinion that 6th has opened up the chances of these bad match ups, not the FW units. I do not necessarily think this is a bad thing in the larger tournaments but can be rough in say a 3 round tournament.

I find it interesting that IG has won the majority of your guys major events, Reece. Do you think the BAO mission favors that book?

 Dok wrote:
I find it interesting that IG has won the majority of your guys major events, Reece. Do you think the BAO mission favors that book?

Dok, clearly "IG is the most overpowered book GW has put out in over a decade."

I would say yes. The mission does favor the IG book.

I think the Missions favor a balanced list. I think the small model count DeathStar lists have a tough time, which is a good thing.

 Dugg wrote:
I think the Missions favor a balanced list. I think the small model count DeathStar lists have a tough time, which is a good thing.

MSU deathstar was hurt by 6th in general which I agree was a good thing. However IG has a huge edge in a mission where 2 out of 3 criteria is claiming objectives. They do that better than any other army in the game.