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So if I use "terrify" from the BRB to make a flying monstrous creature lose fearless while its swooping... then used fear the darkness to make them fail a LD check... How far would they fall back?

If it is swooping, i am not sure, but if it is in it's glide mode, it acts exactly like a 'jump' monstrous creature, so therefore it would follow the rules for 'jump' units for falling back

thisisnotpancho wrote:If it is swooping, i am not sure, but if it is in it's glide mode, it acts exactly like a 'jump' monstrous creature, so therefore it would follow the rules for 'jump' units for falling back

see... I think this is something the GW rules guys missed... I'm not sure how to play it, but it happened in my last game....

Hm... come to think of it all the FMCs are fearless. I'd just say 3d6, as nothing I know of falls back FARTHER than that.

A Swooping FMC is said to "move exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions and clarifications"

the Jump rules tell us "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules"

so a Swooping FMC falls back like Jump units, i.e 3d6 inches.

3d6. Pg 425 is a nifty chart of all moves for each unit type if you need quick reference.

Fragile wrote:3d6. Pg 425 is a nifty chart of all moves for each unit type if you need quick reference.

So there is. Let's see...FMC (Swooping)...ahh here we go, Fall Back Distance "n/a".

Apparently FMC's can never Fall Back. Ever.

 Happyjew wrote:

Fragile wrote:3d6. Pg 425 is a nifty chart of all moves for each unit type if you need quick reference.

So there is. Let's see...FMC (Swooping)...ahh here we go, Fall Back Distance "n/a".

Apparently FMC's can never Fall Back. Ever.

Yeah, was about to bring this up, if they're gliding they'd fall back like a jump unit, but apparently a swooping monstrous creature cannot fall back under any circumstances, according to the rules as they are written.

Except page 49 says they move exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature with exceptions blah blah. So logically they'd fall back 3D6 like other jump units.

If we look at the table however, the "N/A" would indicate it can't fall back, and according to the fallback rules if you have to fall back and can't, you are destroyed.

Fun

HIWPI? 3D6.

Meh i expect its a simple omission by GW ... till its FAQ I would play that a swooping MC can't be hit by "terrify" unless they are gliding or grounded.

Terrify is a Malediction used in the Movement phase. It doesnt roll to hit using the Psykers BS, correct? Therefore, it cannot target a Swooping FMC.

This was FAQ'd a little while back. Only powers which roll to hit can target a Swooping FMC or Flyer (i.e. Witchfires by and large), and must hit on 6's due to Hard To Hit.
For example, Objuration Mechanicum cannot hit a Flyer.

 HerbaciousT wrote:
Terrify is a Malediction used in the Movement phase. It doesnt roll to hit using the Psykers BS, correct? Therefore, it cannot target a Swooping FMC.

This was FAQ'd a little while back. Only powers which roll to hit can target a Swooping FMC or Flyer (i.e. Witchfires by and large), and must hit on 6's due to Hard To Hit.
For example, Objuration Mechanicum cannot hit a Flyer.

The problem is, Terrify doesn't inflict hits and that FAQ question (rightly so) references zooming flyers and swooping flyers being 'hit' by attacks. Unfortunately that leaves a number of different interpretations of that particular FAQ ruling, especially given that there are clearly SOME exceptions (such as Imotekh's lightning).

So IMHO, all that FAQ ruling references are attacks that actually hit/cause damage on the unit. Other types of effects, such as puppet master, etc, still affect zooming flyers and swooping FMCs just fine. In the case of Objuration Mechanicum, for example, I believe that the auto-haywire hit does nothing against a zooming slyer/swooping FMC but the other effects of the power are applied as normal.

I think Terrify can hit them still...

Terrify is a Malediction, it looks like the FAQ ruled out only Wicthfire powers that don't roll to hit.

 yakface wrote:

 HerbaciousT wrote:
Terrify is a Malediction used in the Movement phase. It doesnt roll to hit using the Psykers BS, correct? Therefore, it cannot target a Swooping FMC.

This was FAQ'd a little while back. Only powers which roll to hit can target a Swooping FMC or Flyer (i.e. Witchfires by and large), and must hit on 6's due to Hard To Hit.
For example, Objuration Mechanicum cannot hit a Flyer.

The problem is, Terrify doesn't inflict hits and that FAQ question (rightly so) references zooming flyers and swooping flyers being 'hit' by attacks. Unfortunately that leaves a number of different interpretations of that particular FAQ ruling, especially given that there are clearly SOME exceptions (such as Imotekh's lightning).

So IMHO, all that FAQ ruling references are attacks that actually hit/cause damage on the unit. Other types of effects, such as puppet master, etc, still affect zooming flyers and swooping FMCs just fine. In the case of Objuration Mechanicum, for example, I believe that the auto-haywire hit does nothing against a zooming slyer/swooping FMC but the other effects of the power are applied as normal.

You have a point. I have found the part of the FAQ I was recalling:

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)

A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’troll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas

It depends on if we consider a Malediction an 'Attack' or not. It says that if it doesnt roll to hit, it cant hit a flyer. Ill be honest, Im not sure which side I come down on. In a game id just use the 'Most Important Rule'.

 HerbaciousT wrote:

 yakface wrote:

 HerbaciousT wrote:
Terrify is a Malediction used in the Movement phase. It doesnt roll to hit using the Psykers BS, correct? Therefore, it cannot target a Swooping FMC.

This was FAQ'd a little while back. Only powers which roll to hit can target a Swooping FMC or Flyer (i.e. Witchfires by and large), and must hit on 6's due to Hard To Hit.
For example, Objuration Mechanicum cannot hit a Flyer.

The problem is, Terrify doesn't inflict hits and that FAQ question (rightly so) references zooming flyers and swooping flyers being 'hit' by attacks. Unfortunately that leaves a number of different interpretations of that particular FAQ ruling, especially given that there are clearly SOME exceptions (such as Imotekh's lightning).

So IMHO, all that FAQ ruling references are attacks that actually hit/cause damage on the unit. Other types of effects, such as puppet master, etc, still affect zooming flyers and swooping FMCs just fine. In the case of Objuration Mechanicum, for example, I believe that the auto-haywire hit does nothing against a zooming slyer/swooping FMC but the other effects of the power are applied as normal.

You have a point. I have found the part of the FAQ I was recalling:

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)

A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’troll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas

It depends on if we consider a Malediction an 'Attack' or not. It says that if it doesnt roll to hit, it cant hit a flyer. Ill be honest, Im not sure which side I come down on. In a game id just use the 'Most Important Rule'.

It doesn't depend on that at all actually:
Is it a maelstrom, nova, or beam? No. Is it a weapon (regardless of if it needs to roll to hit the answer is the same here)? No. The FAQ does not mention "attacks" in the question, so what is and isn't an attack is irrelevant to the answer. The answer covers maelstroms, novas, beams, and weapons that do not roll to hit, not anything that could be considered an attack that does not roll to hit.

The answer goes broader than the question and says that any attacks that ... don't roll to hit cannot target them.

Baktru wrote:
Except page 49 says they move exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature with exceptions blah blah. So logically they'd fall back 3D6 like other jump units.

If we look at the table however, the "N/A" would indicate it can't fall back, and according to the fallback rules if you have to fall back and can't, you are destroyed.

Fun

HIWPI? 3D6.

You are misquoting. The part where it acts like a jump unit is specific to when it is gliding and has no exceptions. The swooping rules are not a modification of the jump rules, and you are never told to treat them as such.

My call would be: It fell back into the sky where it feels safe, it is content to fly around up there safely. If it returns to a more accessible height (gliding) during the duration of the effect, it will be subject to falling back as per it's rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
The answer goes broader than the question and says that any attacks that ... don't roll to hit cannot target them.

The answer also tells you what it includes, which is not maledictions.

cryhavok wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The answer goes broader than the question and says that any attacks that ... don't roll to hit cannot target them.

The answer also tells you what it includes, which is not maledictions.

It depends on if you classify a malediction as an attack.

rigeld2 wrote:

cryhavok wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The answer goes broader than the question and says that any attacks that ... don't roll to hit cannot target them.

The answer also tells you what it includes, which is not maledictions.

It depends on if you classify a malediction as an attack.

Answers can be broader and refer to more circumstances than the initial question. The answer mentions 'attacks' which do not roll to hit. So as Rigeld2 says, it depends on if a Malediction is considered an attack.

if you look at the mechanics of flying I am in the camp of they can't fall back. flying critters can only move forward or turn up to 90 and move. A fall back doesn't necessarily fell right.

Even if you choose to define maledictions as attacks despite the way the word "attack" is used in the rulebook (shooting attack, close combat attack, psychic shooting attack, malediction attack), terrify doesn't cause hits and is thus unaffected by hard to hit.

tgf wrote:
if you look at the mechanics of flying I am in the camp of they can't fall back. flying critters can only move forward or turn up to 90 and move. A fall back doesn't necessarily fell right.

So what you're saying is if swooping FMCs can fall back the game breaks if they travelled at more than a 90 degree angle from the player's board edge, so we should take the option that doesn't result in breaking the game and say that they can't?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Even if you choose to define maledictions as attacks despite the way the word "attack" is used in the rulebook (shooting attack, close combat attack, psychic shooting attack, malediction attack), terrify doesn't cause hits and is thus unaffected by hard to hit.

Not true. Attacks that do not roll to hit are forbidden from targeting.

If you define it as an attack, is it an attack? Yes.
Does it roll to hit? No

cryhavok wrote:

Baktru wrote:
Except page 49 says they move exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature with exceptions blah blah. So logically they'd fall back 3D6 like other jump units.

If we look at the table however, the "N/A" would indicate it can't fall back, and according to the fallback rules if you have to fall back and can't, you are destroyed.

Fun

HIWPI? 3D6.

You are misquoting. The part where it acts like a jump unit is specific to when it is gliding and has no exceptions. The swooping rules are not a modification of the jump rules, and you are never told to treat them as such.

My call would be: It fell back into the sky where it feels safe, it is content to fly around up there safely. If it returns to a more accessible height (gliding) during the duration of the effect, it will be subject to falling back as per it's rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
The answer goes broader than the question and says that any attacks that ... don't roll to hit cannot target them.

The answer also tells you what it includes, which is not maledictions.

I wasn't mis-quoting. Gliding says an FMC moves exactly like a JMC. Swooping starts off stating the same and then adds, with the following exceptions etc. It has no exceptions regarding Fallback hence the Fallback of a swooping FMC according to the rules on that page is, 3D6 like other jump units. Only he "N/A" in the table at the back of the book messes this up.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what Raven said.

All examples of things that cannot hit Swooping FMC's in that FAQ are used in the Shooting Phase. It specifically lists Maelstroms, Novas and Beams but is silent on Maledictions.

Also the general rules on psychic powers do not mention the word attack, nor does the entry for maledictions. Witchfire does have attack in it, as in "psychic shooting attacks".

I would say that Maledictions therefore do not fall under that FAQ and can target flyers.

On a similar note, does an FMC that is swooping near an enemy Doom of Malan'Tai get affected by Spirit Leech?

Well it would have to be a FCC from the chaos mariness codex as the ones from the daemon codex iirc do not fail morale tests.

Baktru wrote:
On a similar note, does an FMC that is swooping near an enemy Doom of Malan'Tai get affected by Spirit Leech?

Yes. Even if it's an attack it doesn't target so being forbidden to target is irrelevant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lungpickle wrote:
Well it would have to be a FCC from the chaos mariness codex as the ones from the daemon codex iirc do not fail morale tests.

Or a FMC from C:Tyranids after Fearless is removed.

 HerbaciousT wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

cryhavok wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The answer goes broader than the question and says that any attacks that ... don't roll to hit cannot target them.

The answer also tells you what it includes, which is not maledictions.

It depends on if you classify a malediction as an attack.

Answers can be broader and refer to more circumstances than the initial question. The answer mentions 'attacks' which do not roll to hit. So as Rigeld2 says, it depends on if a Malediction is considered an attack.

Read the last line of the answer again. The one that starts with, "This includes weapons such as..." Then names a few weapons before continuing with, "...,and powers that follow the rules for maelstroms, novas, and beams." That line, in the answer tells you what it applies to, it does not include maledictions. Adding things to that list is making up rules, not interpretting RAW.

"This includes" does not mean "What follows is an exhaustive list".

In fact, it means the opposite.

rigeld2 wrote:
"This includes" does not mean "What follows is an exhaustive list".

In fact, it means the opposite.

When an answer tells you what is included in it's ruling, adding other things, without precedent, is still making up rules. Unless you are GW or you can cite some precedent to add to that list, then adding to it is pretty much the opposite of raw.

cryhavok wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
"This includes" does not mean "What follows is an exhaustive list".

In fact, it means the opposite.

When an answer tells you what is included in it's ruling, adding other things, without precedent, is still making up rules. Unless you are GW or you can cite some precedent to add to that list, then adding to it is pretty much the opposite of raw.

If you define a malediction as an attack you're adding nothing to the list.
The answer does not give you an exhaustive list. Stop pretending it does.

rigeld2 wrote:

cryhavok wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
"This includes" does not mean "What follows is an exhaustive list".

In fact, it means the opposite.

When an answer tells you what is included in it's ruling, adding other things, without precedent, is still making up rules. Unless you are GW or you can cite some precedent to add to that list, then adding to it is pretty much the opposite of raw.

If you define a malediction as an attack you're adding nothing to the list.
The answer does not give you an exhaustive list. Stop pretending it does.

If you are defining a malediction as an attack you are making things up. I am not the one pretending here. The rules are not, this, this, this, and whatever else you decide gets added to it. It is just this, this, and this. GW does not need to state that you can't add things, because no one but them is allowed to anyway.