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Azrael or Calgar, and so on. Who has more overall power? Both lead more then simply a Chapter. Power in this sense is a combination of military and political weight.

Id say Azrael, purely because he is the nominal head of the Unforgiven as well as his own Chapter.

Calgar surely has several worlds to draw upon, but Azrael has a few chapters plus worlds.. Pretty sure the Rock is more impressive than anything the UM can bring to a fight also.

Eetion wrote:Id say Azrael, purely because he is the nominal head of the Unforgiven as well as his own Chapter.

Calgar surely has several worlds to draw upon, but Azrael has a few chapters plus worlds.. Pretty sure the Rock is more impressive than anything the UM can bring to a fight also.

The lord has an mini empire to call on mate... Not only that but a huge amount of successor chapters would be honoured to do anything for the ultramarines. So yeah, in that perspective the UM come out on top.

I am not gonna lie... I love the Dark Angels... but a fight against the Ultramarines - which have their ENTIRE supsector (and more) to call upon would just be overkill.

HOWEVER, if you just taking bout the two of them fighting to the death.... I would say the Lord Marneus as well... sadly.

Which one does our spiritual liege like more? Answer that question. Azrael is a billion times cooler than papa smurf though.

Azrael
Azrael all the way.

Calgar. Now, this may seem biased, but Calgar has the entire system of Ultramar at his beck and call. This isn't only the Ultramarines Chapter, but the Ultramar PDF, who are trained to be sent off as Imperial Guard regiments if and when needed. This is only what he has directly at hand, military forces he can summon and have ready at arms with a moments notice. Add in all the Primogenitor chapters that will run to the aid of the Ultramarines, also the favours he can call in from the Adeptus Mechanicus, Inquisition, Titan Legions. Imagine the size of the force that he can bring to the table.
Now, I'm not a huge fan of the Dark Angels, so I don't know too much about them, but I'm quite sure, being as secretive and anti-social as they are, that Azrael won't be able to raise a force so large. Sure he'll have all the Unforgiven, but would that be enough?

UM: just due to size.

1v1 tabletop. Calgar, twin-powerfists and Eternal Warrior.

Armywise, table top. If I could pick 1 HQ to go with ANY army of my choice, I would choose Asrael. 4+ invuln saves for my GK terminators. Yes please.

Fluffwise. Calgar, Ultramarines and all their successors. Plus the Ultramar Defense force and all the various Imperium forces. Plus the Inquisition, who don't trust the Dark Angels and will side with the chapter they know is loyal.


Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer Lord Emo over Papa Smurf anyday of the week.

Harriticus wrote:Azrael or Calgar, and so on. Who has more overall power? Both lead more then simply a Chapter. Power in this sense is a combination of military and political weight.

Dark Angels have what... like 3 successor chapters?

Ultramarines have like all other successor chapters lol.

This is no contest. Calgar is master of 1/3 the galaxy. He has dozens of chapters to call upon. Forgeworlds, fleets, titan legions ect are all available to Calgar at a moments notice.

Azreal has 4 chapters and a bigger collection of terminator armour.

The fact that DA are getting more votes than UM shows the amount of DA fanboys and UM hate we have here on Dakka.

DeffDred wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Azrael or Calgar, and so on. Who has more overall power? Both lead more then simply a Chapter. Power in this sense is a combination of military and political weight.

Dark Angels have what... like 3 successor chapters?

Ultramarines have like all other successor chapters lol.

This is no contest. Calgar is master of 1/3 the galaxy. He has dozens of chapters to call upon. Forgeworlds, fleets, titan legions ect are all available to Calgar at a moments notice.

Azreal has 4 chapters and a bigger collection of terminator armour.

The fact that DA are getting more votes than UM shows the amount of DA fanboys and UM hate we have here on Dakka.

DA having only 3 successors? UM being the masters of 1/3 of the galaxy? With the numbers you are putting forward it seems like you might be the fanboy here. I'd double check those figures.

I was being general.

Show me any example of Dark Angels pulling more weight in the 41st millenium.

The point I was making is that the DA have a handful of sucessors while the UM provided like 80% of known sucessors.

Dark Angels claims to fame are having the last known human jetbike, extra suits of terminator armour, over use of fast attack units, wearing bathrobes, and half their legion turned traitor.

Ultramarines claim to fame?

Liberating Terra from the forces of Chaos, pushing said chaos into the eye of terror, forming the latter day imperium, providing almost all sucessor chapters, holding back wave after wave of hive fleets...

As much as I prefer the Angels to the Ultras, I have to hand this one to Calgar. For actual combat he has the Gauntlets of Ultramar, which are a pair of super power fists with built in super bolters, he is also very experienced, having lead his chapter to crush the first major hive fleet among other, less notable victories, finally he leads the chapter that has the most successors. Even if he isn't in direct control of his allied chapters like Azrael, he has so much influence among them that he can easily outnumber the Unforgiven in raw numbers. Honestly I would say the only two chapter masters that could possibly beat Calgar in such a situation are Dante and whoever is in charge of the Imperial Fists, simply because they are well liked chapters with an okay number of successor chapters, with no skeletons in their closet, and most importantly, Dante is far more experienced than Calgar, or any living marine.


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DeffDred wrote:
Liberating Terra from the forces of Chaos

Not really, Chaos fled before he arrived when Horus was killed. Even if the death of Horus was caused because he was afraid of reinforcements, almost everyone who wasn't crippled was heading to Terra, and it was by no means just the Ultras that saved the day.

DeffDred wrote:I was being general.

Show me any example of Dark Angels pulling more weight in the 41st millenium.

The point I was making is that the DA have a handful of sucessors while the UM provided like 80% of known sucessors.

Dark Angels claims to fame are having the last known human jetbike, extra suits of terminator armour, over use of fast attack units, wearing bathrobes, and half their legion turned traitor.

Ultramarines claim to fame?

Liberating Terra from the forces of Chaos, pushing said chaos into the eye of terror, forming the latter day imperium, providing almost all sucessor chapters, holding back wave after wave of hive fleets...

There are several instances where the unforgiven unite to hunt the fallen.
I think its roughly 60% that owe their geneseed to Ultramarine stock. Remember that Dark Angels also have very stable geneseed, so aside from some trust issues it would not suprise me if that at every founding there were a few chapters made from Dark Angel stock (keep in mind there are thousands of chapters).
Dark Angels were present at the liberation of terra my dear boy.

On another note the unforgiven tend to specialise in decapitation strikes, with ravenwing and deathwing. So Dark Angels and successors vs. Ultramarines vs. successor would be an interesting fight. Reason I say this is that while yes the Unforgiven would be outnumbered they would aim for leadership first and mop up later. Personally I am going with Azrael on this one, but if it was a 1v1 fight Lord of Macragge

Wardragoon wrote:Dark Angels were present at the liberation of terra my dear boy.

Since when?

I'm familiar with the White Scars, Imperial Fists and Blood Angels.

Ultramarines show up late.

Dark Angels were busy with their chaos worshipping brothers on Calliban (or arguing with the Space Wolves over what to do [according to alot of talk between players before the HH books were written])

Azrael. Always Azrael.

DeffDred wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:Dark Angels were present at the liberation of terra my dear boy.

Since when?

I'm familiar with the White Scars, Imperial Fists and Blood Angels.

Ultramarines show up late.

Dark Angels were busy with their chaos worshipping brothers on Calliban (or arguing with the Space Wolves over what to do [according to alot of talk between players before the HH books were written])

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Siege_of_Terra#.UC6Yf91mQ2g look at the top paragraph for Vengeful Spirit section. What you are thinking of is that Lion showed up later than he could have, or it was suggested by Astelan a fallen angel.

Page 10 of the Dark Angels Codex states: "The Dark Angels sired several successor chapters. Of these the Angels of Absolution, Angels of Redemption and Angels of Vengeance maintain particularly close links with the Dark Angels themselves"

So, while yes, the Ultramarines may have founded approx. 60% of the known chapters to date, it is not to say that the Dark Angels haven't got their fair share of successors. Also, Dark Angels successor chapters leadership are members of the Inner Circle, meaning that they are duty bound to drop what they are doing when they get a phone call from the Supreme Grand Master.

The destruction of Caliban also didn't happen until well after the Dark Angels returned after the culmination of the Horus Heresy. Page 8 of the Dark Angels Codex: "As the Emperor fought Warmater Horus at Terra, Jonson was fighting for Humanity in the distant Shield Worlds, alongside Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves. When word reached Jonson and Russ of the titanic battle being fought at Terra, the two generals marshalled their forces and set course for Terra with all haste. The journey took several weeks..."

Now, it may be possible that the Dark Angels were delayed by other means, but the Ultramarines were also delayed by actions taken by the Word Bearers.

Another thing to consider is while all of the Dark Angels Successors have members of the Inner Circles within their ranks, not all Ultramarines successors will just drop everything at Calgar's beck and call. I'm not saying that there wouldn't be a significant number that do show. Also the Ultramarines do have a fair amount of significant ties to non-Astartes factions within the Imperium. I think what it would honestly boil down to is who provoked whom, and in what portion of the Empire the battle were to take place.

The Rock tends to stay around Segmentum Obscuras (as far as I know), and has at least 3 full chapters housed in it. So while Calgar would be able to bring a diverse army to the fight, the Dark Angels would be bringing marines and marines alone. Coupled with the information network that the Dark Angels use to track the fallen, they may have an edge in Segmentum Obscuras, knowing when and where the Ultramarines and their forces would arrive and when.

If the fight were to take place in the Ultima Segmentum, I could see the Ultramarines coming out victorious due to the sheer number of bodies they'd be able to throw out there (Primarily Macragge PDF, and whoever answered the call).

I know it is not a difinitive answer, but when it comes to who vs who in regards to fluff, unless a precedent is shown, it will always boil down to speculation.

 Eetion wrote:
Id say Azrael, purely because he is the nominal head of the Unforgiven as well as his own Chapter.

Calgar surely has several worlds to draw upon, but Azrael has a few chapters plus worlds.. Pretty sure the Rock is more impressive than anything the UM can bring to a fight also.

The Ultramarines have hundreds of regiments of PDF, and the backing of hundreds of successor chapters, lol.

I mean, if you're going to give Azrael "a few chapters", you need to include that the Ultramarines had five times more Second Founding chapters, and currently have more than 60% of existing champters being descended from their gene seed. It's fairly certain that the Ultramarines can bring a few more buddy chapters to a fight than the Dark Angels.


The results of this poll are pretty laughable. For a background forum, there seems to be a large number of people who aren't very familiar with the background.


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Captain Avynn wrote:So, while yes, the Ultramarines may have founded approx. 60% of the known chapters to date, it is not to say that the Dark Angels haven't got their fair share of successors.

Do the math. The Ultramarines have more than 60% (let's guess 63% for gaks and giggles). That leaves less than 40% to spread between the other 8 original Legions. The Space Wolves are nice. They don't have any. The Salamanders are also nice in that they don't have too many. The Blood Angels probably have fewer because of their severe gene seed flaws. That still leaves the 30% or so left over to be split between the Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, White Scars and Dark Angels. Even if that's an even split, we're talking ~6% per Chapter. That leaves the Ultramarines with roughly ten times more successor Chapters than the Dark Angels, lol.

Another thing to consider is while all of the Dark Angels Successors have members of the Inner Circles within their ranks, not all Ultramarines successors will just drop everything at Calgar's beck and call.

If the Ultramarines have a 15% show rate, they could still show up to battle with approximately twice the numbers of the Dark Angels, lol.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Another thing to consider is while all of the Dark Angels Successors have members of the Inner Circles within their ranks, not all Ultramarines successors will just drop everything at Calgar's beck and call.

If the Ultramarines have a 15% show rate, they could still show up to battle with approximately twice the numbers of the Dark Angels, lol.

But is there really any precedent to any UM successors showing up in a time of need. Did any successors show up when Behemoth(?) attacked Macragge the UM and successor spiritual homeworld. But if UMs can bring their weight it may make a difference depending on various actions taken by ravenwing and Deathwing. But with this I do have to agree that the result would probably depend on where the battle occurred, if it was away from Ultramar. Calgar would lose, if it was in Ultramar I would lean to it being won by Calgar.

Yes there are. The codex says that the majority of UM successors will rush to the aid of their founding Legion.

Macragge didn't have anyone else there because the battle was over before reinforcements arrived.

 DeffDred wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:Dark Angels were present at the liberation of terra my dear boy.

Since when?

I'm familiar with the White Scars, Imperial Fists and Blood Angels.

Ultramarines show up late.

Dark Angels were busy with their chaos worshipping brothers on Calliban (or arguing with the Space Wolves over what to do [according to alot of talk between players before the HH books were written])

Your getting your time lines mixed up my good man, Da were there for the liberation of terra, not the Defence of terra (this is the list you mentioned), they arived late with the SW's.
Caliban was AFTER the heresy, he returned home to chill with his Bro's and got sucker punched when he entered orbit, having seen that chaos had also infested his legion he went nuts and decided to turn the planet into a wasteland... stuff ensues.... The chaos gods are so angry that they have failed a 2nd time go a bit OTT and suck most of Caliban into the warp.

 Wardragoon wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Another thing to consider is while all of the Dark Angels Successors have members of the Inner Circles within their ranks, not all Ultramarines successors will just drop everything at Calgar's beck and call.

If the Ultramarines have a 15% show rate, they could still show up to battle with approximately twice the numbers of the Dark Angels, lol.

But is there really any precedent to any UM successors showing up in a time of need.

Quite a bit actually. Coordinating with the successor chapters has been part of the mythos of the Ultramarines' successes, even if it is sometimes underexplored.