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Norbert Brunhuber, dedicated Warmachine Player and Privateer Press Ganger, joins Russ and Craig in the third chair.

Norbert has recently moved from the US to the UK. Now that he's settled in and found some gaming 'mates' we thought it would be fun to catch up with him and discuss just how different is the miniature gaming scene across the pond?

Later we decide to tackle three recent miniature gaming supplements. The new Warmachine Colossals book, the new Dust Warfare Zverograd book, and the new digital gaming aid War Room recently released by Privateer Press for Warmachine/Hordes.

All that and our other not-too-horrible segments including:
- Total Fan Girl
- Do You Ever Notice
- & More

Link to episode:
http://www.thed6generation.com/webpage/d6g-ep-109-uk-vs-us-gaming-colossals-dust-warfare-ssu-war-room

Please let us know what you thought of the show!

Norbert is really making the rounds! Looking forward to this episode, especially tech guy Russ' take on the War Room release.

Top show as always chaps.

@Craig, What happened to 40K is not what I'm looking for at this time in my gaming life?

Contrasting the Colossals supplement to the SSU and 40K sixth edition was very interesting. IMO the different design philosophies were laid bare, with PP striving primarily for game balance, GW for models to match the fiction and then balance out via points cost after, and Dust seeming to accentuate the different factions play style. None are wrong, but they do appeal to different gamers.

The UK/US comparisons were interesting, especially as the Independent Characters have (co-incidentally I assume) just done a similar segment. I'd simply add that the clubs that I have attended have had different game systems (and types) that they predominately play, as well as different age and gender balances, so that you can't extrapolate what people are playing from one club to the next.

Keep up the good work!

Great episode as usual. It was nice to hear about what gaming in the UK is like. Makes me glad to have my local store.

War room sounds like something that would be handy for Malifaux.

Interesting episode. I met Norbert at the ETC, and it sure helps to put names to voices

The UK-US gaming scene differences are quite interesting. In Norway, the gaming club has been predominant now for many years, but recent experiences in Oslo suggest to me that store play is also a very viable (and profitable, for the store) way to go if you can secure gaming space. In some ways, the way has been paved by the CCG community in the store, as it takes so much less work (just get space and regular tables) and from there the development of a community that both frequents the gamestore and the local club has been beneficial for both.

Russ' take on Warrooms' potential was interesting. So far, local experience has been decent on tablets, but not too brilliant on smartphones, especially Android platform ones. I really hope they iron out the issues, because I definitely can see what Warroom can be, in a few months.

I loved Craig's reaction to notion that American gaming was needed to replace fun, sportsmanship, painting at British tournaments...

Indeed I should like to thank all involved - particularly Norbert - for reminding me of why I have no interest in ever playing Privateer Press games.

Initially, I have to admit that I was not sure how I felt about going into the UK v US gaming scene segment - along the lines of 'this American has lived on this sceptred isle for six months and presumes to speak for us English!' But, I see what you were aiming for and I do think that Norbert actually did an excellent job of this.

I am not sure that I agree with the point about not driving very far, though. The fact is, usually - as a combination of the relatively short distances and the self-organisation that has to happen in the UK - we don't need to. That's all. The lack of reliance on large stores or companies to organise our events means that if there isn't one locally we have to ask why that is, and if there should be. Personally, if there was a tournament in Birmingham then I would certainly drive to it. Now, i wouldn't drive that distance to visit a good gaming store, but - as noted - we don't have many of those and there is much more acceptance of online ordering (and 'shows', more in a minute). I don't have the perspective of gaming in the US, but I also assume that we are not as tournament driven in the UK. I get the impression that some US gamers spend their entire year building up to a specific tournament or tournament circuit, and I don't think that this is as common in the UK.

As for conventions (yes, conventions, not shows! ) , and forgive me if this is something that is mentioned later in the segment - I am up to the part about Warmachine gaming being less fun , but due to a lack of decent stores and the relatively small distances conventions are a large part of UK gaming. We actually have a huge number of conventions, and through most of the year you don't need to wait for more than a couple of weeks for the next one. There is a pretty good list here to give an idea:

http://www.newarkirregulars.org.uk/calendar2012.html

These conventions are often really small, but with most gaming clubs self-organised and regular, and very few stores locally, this is why UK conventions often have more focus on buying and new products, than getting demo games in.

Thanks for yet another fine episode.

Norbert added a very good perspective for those of us from the US on the UK gaming scene. By not being a native, he could really see the difference and relate what is really different. That, and he's a pretty entertaining guy.

The reviews/discussions about the three different game expansions was very well done. Even with some of the problems that the War Room launch had, you guys were able to cover it without getting bogged down into all the problems. Thus, it ended up being more informative than editorial.

I liked this episode. As a Brit, I was at first a little skeptical about a US visitor speaking for UK gaming, but very quickly realised that this was not at all what was going on. As it was Norbert spoke very well about a US visitor's perspective on how we do things, and that was interesting and highly relevant.

It would be really great to get a UK player's perspective on the US scene at some point in the future to compare and contrast!

From this UK-based gamer's perspective it seems that there are pro's and con's to both the club-based "UK model" and the store-based "US model" (of course recognising that there are probably some non-store clubs in the US, and there are definitely a couple of stores that have space for gaming in the UK)

Store based gaming seems less hassle for gamers, but seems dependant upon the good will of the store owner. A bad store owner = a bad gaming experience. In contrast a club scene is a lot more hassle to organise (at least once a club gets to any size), but on the other hand having gone to that hassle it gives a lot more control to the gamers (for instance not being restricted to playing specific games that the owner stocks for instance).

Both models have their good bits and bad bits. I do feel however that the extra effort of club-gaming is rewarded by the increased freedom potentially offered.

Addressing the issue of the relative competitiveness of the US and the UK gaming scene, personally I feel this is a red herring.

I can't speak for the US, but in the UK, the tournament scene is only a tiny proportion of the overall scene - maybe 200 or so Warhammer Fantasy players exist in the circuit according to the Bad Dice podcast and WFB is the largest tournament game arguably in the UK. Contrast that to the 1000's of gamers out there in the UK playing in their front rooms or at clubs for no big organised competition, and you can see what a small (and IMHO overly vociferous) element of the scene they are.

Sure they are probably the most dedicated gamers out there, but frankly they are a minor part of the hobby and their opinions should be weighted accordingly.

However, having said that, those UK gamers that are into tournaments, most definitely are as competitive as all heck. Sure the typical British self-depricating attitude may give the appearance of a lack of competitive edge, but as the recent success at the ETC (overall winner, 1st in 40k, 3rd in WFB), UK players are as adept at kicking donkey as the next nation's! It's just we are a lot more adept at covering our disappointment when we don't win than many nations appear to be

Anyhoo. Another cracking episode. Much food for thought, and the run-through of the new SSU book was particularly welcome, as having bought the core book, and having a large collection of AT-43 Red-Block models gathering dust (see what I did there?), this is a publication I have been eagerly anticipating!

Osbad wrote:

I can't speak for the US, but in the UK, the tournament scene is only a tiny proportion of the overall scene - maybe 200 or so Warhammer Fantasy players exist in the circuit according to the Bad Dice podcast and WFB is the largest tournament game arguably in the UK. Contrast that to the 1000's of gamers out there in the UK playing in their front rooms or at clubs for no big organised competition, and you can see what a small (and IMHO overly vociferous) element of the scene they are.

Do you know where they have this information from? Because it seems really, really low. In Denmark alone, with a population of less than 9% of the UK's, they get enough people to fill a hundred seats at the Giant Fanatic WHFB tourney yearly in just a few weeks. And wargaming does not have anything even close to the presence in Denmark, the most miniature-happy country in Scandinavia, that it has in the UK.

It would also mean that the WM/H UK tournament scene, since it started taking off with Mk2 in 2010, is approaching the size of the WHFB scene in the same country; the UK Masters sells over a hundred tickets - and I do not think all the competitive UK players go to the Masters: it was contrasted to the Maelstrom ETC as a "serious" tourney compared to the more relaxes atmosphere we had at Mansfield this june.

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:

Osbad wrote:

I can't speak for the US, but in the UK, the tournament scene is only a tiny proportion of the overall scene - maybe 200 or so Warhammer Fantasy players exist in the circuit according to the Bad Dice podcast and WFB is the largest tournament game arguably in the UK. Contrast that to the 1000's of gamers out there in the UK playing in their front rooms or at clubs for no big organised competition, and you can see what a small (and IMHO overly vociferous) element of the scene they are.

Do you know where they have this information from? Because it seems really, really low. In Denmark alone, with a population of less than 9% of the UK's, they get enough people to fill a hundred seats at the Giant Fanatic WHFB tourney yearly in just a few weeks. And wargaming does not have anything even close to the presence in Denmark, the most miniature-happy country in Scandinavia, that it has in the UK.

I can't recall the exact quote, but it was just Ben Curry's personal guestimate based on the number of different faces he sees at the various tournaments. Even if it was 300 it would still only be a small fraction of the number of people involved in the game. These are the people who attend most of the major tournaments every year. Of course there will also be a number of "fringe" people who occasionally turn up to the odd tournament for fun, not expecting to do well, and just for the social aspect as much as anything, but I (& Ben) wouldn't call them "dedicated tournament players". There will be a few hundred more of these of course. But still. I have played various GW games for over a decade and know many, many gamers. I don't know personally a single person who has even attended, let alone regularly, a competitive tournament. Of course that is only personal, but you know.

(For those not in the know, and who don't listen to the Bad Dice podcast, or frequent the UK tourney circuit, Ben Curry is a UK ETC team member, and a regular "podium" placer on the UK tournament scene, and has been for a number of years now - so he is well placed to make the observation.)

As far as I can tell (never been to one myself, just heard and read about them on t'internet) getting over 100 attending a UK WFB tournament is pretty normal and there are several that size every year. But that is still only "over 100", most of whom travel around most of the same well-trodden "tournament circuit". I would therefore make a very, very rough estimate for WFB that the proportion of "dedicated tournament players" to (for the want of a better expression) "casual players" as being a lot less than 10% possibly as low as 1%, if you consider folks such as me who play the game approximately twice a year to still be active gamers.

So he's basically saying the UK tournament scene is what we call "Tordenskiolds soldater" over here; lots of people filling the same slots over an over (look it up). Since it is his personal estimate it really depends on how good he is at that sort of thing; you can easily fool yourself by spotting the 30-50 people you know well out of the 100 who attend an event and extrapolate that the rest are the same, and thus create a blind spot for your personal headspace statistics . It's impossble to say for sure without the organizers' lists. I've been holding events and tournaments for the last three years and my lists show that with the steady growth we've been experiencing, there are still a lot of people who only show up once every 3, 6 or 12 months.

Great episode guys! I thought the UK vs US segment was very interesting, as well as the replies from the UK gamers here. I have always wondered about the way that Americans tend to gravitate more towards game stores than clubs. I really think that there is some advantages to the club model, although I think many US gamers would probably balk at the idea of paying a table fee and/or a membership fee!

Wow, this is two rather miniatures-centric episodes for you guys in a row! Looks like the topic pendulum has swung fully in the other direction for now .

Hello everyone, it's Norbert here from the show. Thanks for all the interesting comments on this thread so far! I particularly want to thanks all the British commenters for being so gracious and giving the segment a chance. It was definitely only meant to be one person's first impressions in a new gaming environment and so it was bound to have some insights of our similarities and differences while also having lots of gross assumptions and misrepresentations. As it is, I'm now learning that the Scottish gaming scence may have some signficant differences from England, and there are some differences between northern England and the urban confines of London that I find myself in.

The most important thing I wanted to impart was said at the end and that is that the British gaming community welcomed me with open arms and provided a new guy with lots of social support during a time when I didn't have much else to identify with. Any observations I made should certainly be taken with that in mind and was the most important point! After that, the things I observed and felt are just interesting from the point of view of learning about and celebrating other cultures. Something that, in part, drove my family to decide to move to another country in the first place. There are always some things that are better, some that are worse, some just don't suit you, and some that are just different. Keeping an open mind is the key thing to being happy where you are and potentially conributing to making it a better place.

With that in mind, I thought I would address some of the comments made in reaction to Craig's rather short comment that was made in jest with perhaps a kernel of his personal opinion in it. I really don't think there is an "American" style of tournament compared to a "UK or European" tournament when it comes to the players themselves. I've been at many American tournament and conventions, and now I have been to quite a few British ones of all types (ones firmly rooted in British traditions with others being more American styled). I can tell you that all the Americans and British I know love the Privateer Press experience at a tournament and they come with very high levels of fun, sportsmanship, and painting. I can't see how you can say otherwise if you've never played in one other than relying on hearsay. I think GW players and tournaments are probably the same in that regard (but I haven't played in that scene at all).

What both American/British differences and PP/GW differences exist are just that - different experiences. Don't try to make one out to be better than the other, rather consider what's right for you and then do that. And experiment! Life is too short and our hobby is too small to not try something only to find out it had great inner appeal for you.

So thanks for all that dear listeners, and special thanks to the D6G hosts for having me on and giving us such a quality podcast.

--Norbert