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I see a lot of people referring to Unholy Might (Chaos Daemons: +1 to Str) as increasing the Strength of an FMC's Vector Strike attacks.

But the BRB rules for Vector Strike very specifically state that the Vector Strike uses the "unmodified Strength".

So the question is, does Unholy Might apply to Vector Strike attacks?

No, because it is a modifier. By definition.

See page 2

It could be either way, as "unmodified strength" could just mean don't apply strength bonuses for weapons.

Doesn't Unholy Strength just change the Daemon's strength by +1? There are no conditions under which the strength does not exist by the wording in the entry. You just get +1 strength.

TechMarine1 wrote:It could be either way, as "unmodified strength" could just mean don't apply strength bonuses for weapons.

No, it says unmodified strenght

Adding 1 to your strength is a modifier, as defined on page 2 in the rulebook, as already given

IT does not say "only include weapons", so it includes ANY MODIFIER to your strength, from ANY source

The reason you see people doing this is because there is a tourny FAQ (NOVA or Golden, not sure which had it in their) out that says you can, and without a BRB FAQ or INAT FAQ out, its the best thing to go to atm for some gray areas. Doesn't mean its 100% correct and can of course be argued and changed by the players playing, but saying "lets follow the tourny's rules" makes a bit of sense as its agreed answers to those areas.

Absolutely - within a tourney

However including the +1S is 100% unsupported by the rules, and 100% unambniguously so.

Tournies change rules all the time.

The text for Unholy Might states "the model has +1 strength on its profile". I have been interpreting this to mean that it changes the actual profile of the model and is thus included for vector strikes.

undertow wrote:The text for Unholy Might states "the model has +1 strength on its profile". I have been interpreting this to mean that it changes the actual profile of the model and is thus included for vector strikes.

So it modifies the profile?

So it's modified?

Just checking.

Well, as it is in its profile, it is unmodified. It makes sense fluff wise, RAI, and i would say RAW as well.

The Unholy Might daemonic gift adds to the profile, making the daemons base strength +1.

The addition of strength is in its profile, so it acts as if it is unmodified because that is the daemon's profile, and it should and will always hit with that base strength.

thisisnotpancho wrote:Well, as it is in its profile, it is unmodified. It makes sense fluff wise, RAI, and i would say RAW as well.

The Unholy Might daemonic gift adds to the profile, making the daemons base strength +1.

The addition of strength is in its profile, so it acts as if it is unmodified because that is the daemon's profile, and it should and will always hit with that base strength.

So it modifies the profile, but it's unmodified?

I'm confused.

thisisnotpancho wrote:Well, as it is in its profile, it is unmodified. It makes sense fluff wise, RAI, and i would say RAW as well.

The Unholy Might daemonic gift adds to the profile, making the daemons base strength +1.

The addition of strength is in its profile, so it acts as if it is unmodified because that is the daemon's profile, and it should and will always hit with that base strength.

Its profile would read S5(6)

Meaning it has been modified

The base S is 5. No ifs, buts or maybes here, your strikes are made at S5

rigeld2 wrote:

thisisnotpancho wrote:Well, as it is in its profile, it is unmodified. It makes sense fluff wise, RAI, and i would say RAW as well.

The Unholy Might daemonic gift adds to the profile, making the daemons base strength +1.

The addition of strength is in its profile, so it acts as if it is unmodified because that is the daemon's profile, and it should and will always hit with that base strength.

So it modifies the profile, but it's unmodified?

I'm confused.

If you want to be pedantic, it increments the profile.

An increment or decrement is still a modification IAW the rules for Stat modifications on pg 2.

In short, anything that changes a stat is a modifier.

Note that by RAW if an FMC had its Str reduced (eg Enfeeble) it would still conduct Vector Strikes at its unmodified Str.

Make lemonade from lemons?

RAW I would agree. But I would play that Unholy Might does affect Vector Strike strength.

An increment or decrement is still a modification IAW the rules for Stat modifications on pg 2.

It is not clear with Unholy Might. It never states anywhere that it modifies the strength - you add +! to the profile is all it says. It could be legitimately ruled either way. We play it does add to vector strength.

Unholy might works on vector strikes. It isn't a modifier to the profile. It changes the profile.

A monstrous creature with a power axe has +1 strength because the axe modifies it. Not the same thing as unholy strength which changes the models base strength.

Changing the profile is modifying the profile.

Unholy Might or an axe both modify the strength.

The text of Vector Strike is quite clear that no wargear, weapons, or special rules apply. RAI one might consider UM wargear, but even by the strictest and most limited RAW read, UM is certainly a special rule.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Changing the profile is modifying the profile.

Unholy Might or an axe both modify the strength.

The text of Vector Strike is quite clear that no wargear, weapons, or special rules apply. RAI one might consider UM wargear, but even by the strictest and most limited RAW read, UM is certainly a special rule.

Changing a profile isn't modifying the profile. Its creating a new profile. Just like Thunderwolf cavalry and their HoW attacks. Or are you saying they are only str 4?

Changing a profile isn't modifying the profile.

You might want to take a break from the keyboard and look at that sentence you wrote there again in an hour or two.

Its creating a new profile. Just like Thunderwolf cavalry and their HoW attacks. Or are you saying they are only str 4?

Thunderwolf Cavalry have a fixed profile, so will use the S on their profile for HoW. Strictly speaking, a character on an upgrade Thunderwolf Mount has a modified profile, so should use their unmodified strength, yes. Their Toughness only counts as base for instant death because of the FAQ ruling.

That said, I understand now more where you're coming from. I do think that Vector Strike is even more clear and explicit and comprehensive than Hammer of Wrath when nothing bumps up the strength for VS. Compare the wording of the two.

I would argue that a "modifier" is applied in game, such as weapons and wargear during cc and shooting attacks.
Where as Unholy Might is applied before the game begins at the point of selecting your army and enters the game S6 and would then be its base strength for the game.

There is no such distinction in the 40k rules.

Kevlar wrote:
Unholy might works on vector strikes. It isn't a modifier to the profile. It changes the profile.

A monstrous creature with a power axe has +1 strength because the axe modifies it. Not the same thing as unholy strength which changes the models base strength.

From the BRB FAQ:

Q: When a model makes a Vector Strike or Hammer of Wrath, do these attacks benefit from any special rules (such as Furious Charge, Poisoned or Rending), or any weapons or other wargear it is equipped with? (p37/43)
A: No.

Unholy Might is a Daemonic Gift, which the Daemon codex says "are equivalent to the weapons and other wargear used by mere mortals..."

I use Bloodthirsters, and I've always deployed them with Unholy Might, but I think the latest FAQ is pretty clear that it doesn't work with Vector Strike.

Its not modified....it just HAS 1 More strength....its not a modified profile its a different profile. You guys have too much free time. This isn't a weapon, its an especially nasty mc. I mean come on, you guys going make every little thing a fight when you play a game?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is still irking me...if there is a thunderwolf mount or any other mount that moss the base profile. A thunder hammer by your logic for a thunder wolf is s9 not 10. Which is tottally wrong. This isnt like furious charge.

I think it's silly to argue that change is not a synonym for modifier. Especially when Vector Strike makes such a point of specifying that no wargear, no weapons, and no special rules apply. And when the Daemonic Gift rules say that they're the equivalent of wargear and weapons for mortal armies.

I also think it's a silly and insulting mistake to think that discussing rules on here means people would "make every little thing a fight" at the table. Part of the point of having a forum to discuss these issues is so we can work out how they work ahead of time, and NOT waste precious playing time at the table.

+1S is explicitly a modifier, as listed in the BRB. There are no ifs or buts in this.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
+1S is explicitly a modifier, as listed in the BRB. There are no ifs or buts in this.

You might want to try something called an "internet search" for unholy might + vector strikes. There are plenty of ifs and butts, and most people agree, giving a model a different profile entry is not a game modifier, it is just a model with a different profile.

Unholy might isn't a weapon that gives +1 strength or a temporary bonus like furious charge.

I dont have the book on me but I belive the woprding for unholy might is that it adds +1 to the base strength of the daemon. Wouldnt that mean that it is, for all intents and purposes, its normal strength since it whent into the game like that? Just an idea as I dont use flying daemons.

Kevlar wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
+1S is explicitly a modifier, as listed in the BRB. There are no ifs or buts in this.

You might want to try something called an "internet search" for unholy might + vector strikes. There are plenty of ifs and butts, and most people agree, giving a model a different profile entry is not a game modifier, it is just a model with a different profile.

Unholy might isn't a weapon that gives +1 strength or a temporary bonus like furious charge.

You might want to try less sarcasm, and note that this has already been asked in this forum a few times. Each time with the same response - rules wise, undoubtedly, it is a modifier as it fits the literal definition of a modifer in the rulebook.

You havent got a rules argument against the rules in the BRB which define +1S as a modifier. Meaning that, from a rules perspective there are no ifs or buts

People can argue the matter, however it deosnt make it a good argument, not does it make the subject matter unclear. Some people wil argue the sky isnt blue.

If you have a RULES based argument that shows that the definition of a modifier does not apply, please present it. So far you have not done so.

I'll post the BRB FAQ section again just in case you in the 'Unholy Might works with Vector Strike' crowd missed it the first time:

Q: When a model makes a Vector Strike or Hammer of Wrath, do these attacks benefit from any special rules (such as Furious Charge, Poisoned or Rending), or any weapons or other wargear it is equipped with? (p37/43)
A: No.

As has already been mentioned, the Daemon codex says that Unholy Might is WARGEAR. The FAQ unambiguously states that Vector Strike does NOT benefit from any weapons or wargear. It doesn't really matter what language that wargear uses to assign its bonuses to the model equipped with it. In light of the FAQ, the 'not a modifier' argument is utterly irrelevant.

The only way Unholy Might would work would be if it had a FAQ entry that explicitly gave it permission to be used with Vector Strike.