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 Swara wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Mohoc wrote:
Nurglings also gained a wound.

Are they EW still?

Nope. So they are pretty vulnerable to things like battlecannons. Still 15 points though and now have shrouded, so they'll have a 2+ cover behind an aegis if I remember correctly.

Aha... so there's the tradeoff. Cool!

So, with all the page leaks out, is the general consensus building that Daemons are going to be strictly horde?
Are there going to be any options to keep the army low model count and elite?

And 1 extra wound and attack as well as infiltrate. Not horrible buggers if you can avoid the high strength blasts that'll destroy em pretty bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 matphat wrote:
So, with all the page leaks out, is the general consensus building that Daemons are going to be strictly horde?
Are there going to be any options to keep the army low model count and elite?

I could see it going either way. You either have large groups supported by heralds or small groups for objective grabing and then have elites do the pushing. Even a flying circus is mostly viable.

Blah!
I LIKE running my troops, But I just got finished painting an Ork horde, and I DON'T WANNA paint another 100 models! Even if Horrors are dead simple to build and paint.
=(

 matphat wrote:
So, with all the page leaks out, is the general consensus building that Daemons are going to be strictly horde?
Are there going to be any options to keep the army low model count and elite?

You can have 4 FMCs and a Greater Deamon in one army...

matphat wrote:So, with all the page leaks out, is the general consensus building that Daemons are going to be strictly horde?
Are there going to be any options to keep the army low model count and elite?

Some test games need to be played to see.

I am not sold on the FMC route. Sure, you can bring 5 FMCs, but they can die very easily. Each MC has 5 wounds and most are bringing a 5++ save.
It might work, and will require some testing to see.

Damons still have screamers/flamers which are very good choices.

Still, it seems to me like MSU is not that hot of an option for daemons.

Shrouded and 4w=Nurglings don't need to worry much about s6+ blasts or flamers under s6.

S6 flamers and close combat on the other hand.... S6+ cc hits causing 4 wound ID + demonic instability=life's a bitch.

 labmouse42 wrote:

matphat wrote:So, with all the page leaks out, is the general consensus building that Daemons are going to be strictly horde?
Are there going to be any options to keep the army low model count and elite?

Some test games need to be played to see.

I am not sold on the FMC route. Sure, you can bring 5 FMCs, but they can die very easily. Each MC has 5 wounds and most are bringing a 5++ save.
It might work, and will require some testing to see.

Damons still have screamers/flamers which are very good choices.

Still, it seems to me like MSU is not that hot of an option for daemons.

MSU does seem like the less viable option, which I'm ok with. I don't think I'd try a flying circus though, in the previous codex, I think the other FMCs really relied on Fateweaver to survive. With his abilities changed, and invul saves in general being made worse, I'm not sure I want to spend the points in all those pricey units that no longer have EW. I'll try it out, but I'm thinking I'll go with more, larger troop units and add a bunch of heralds. I might even pick up some chariots.

While I'm sad that my current list (Flying Circus) doesn't seem viable anymore, I'm Ok with it as I've felt that Fateweaver has been a bit of a crutch for me. He's been a must-include for any Daemon army I've made.

Also, didn't Flamers get a nerf? What happened to Breath of Chaos?

Flamers now just have a STR 4, AP4 flamer. Much like any other flamer.
While its a huge nurf, it was a needed nurf. They were really over the top.

Assuming you get 5 guys under each flamer template, flamers will still crush squad they get close to.
9 * 5 = 45 hits.
Vs T4 thats 22.5 wounds. Goodbye ork squad.
Vs MEQ thats 7.5 dead marines. Goodbye marine squad.

As you can see, they still flame things dead. They are just not completely broken like the were before the update.

What do people who're familiar with pysker stuff think of the new Fateweaver? He can access any spell from any school, but has had his support aspect completely removed.

1 spell from each school, with access to only half of them each turn, and 1 d6 reroll isn't a whole lot imo.

skarsol wrote:
1 spell from each school, with access to only half of them each turn, and 1 d6 reroll isn't a whole lot imo.

I'm going to try the big chicken, but I doubt I'll use him as much as I used to. Although I don't think he'll have quite the target priority that he used to.

Today, I had the chance to look into the new codex.
Well, from the structure it looks like the CSM codex, with psychic powers for the three gods.

Here are some random thoughts:
Daemonic instability is as it basically was in the previous incarnation with exceptions if double 1 or double 6 is rolled.
DPs are in the HQ section.
Greater Daemons can make DPs heavy support of the same god.
DPs can get iron hide and wings that makes them 205 pts before any mark. Marks are 10 to 25 pts.
MoN gives shrouding (+2 on cover save).
Troops are rather cheap, models cost 9 to 10 pts. Bloodletters have AP3 weapons.
Nurglings got boosted a bit.
Flamers cost the same as in the errata but got nerfed a bit with an S4 AP4 flamer.
Screamers are still jetbikes with 3 attacks which can be replaced by one S5 AP2 attack, with 2D6 vs tanks.

Well, a guy with the Codex just said there isn't a unit called Warp Stalker in the codex..
So i guess the Leaked release list really was fake, unless its a Fantasy unit.

HawkWall wrote:
Well, a guy with the Codex just said there isn't a unit called Warp Stalker in the codex..
So i guess the Leaked release list really was fake, unless its a Fantasy unit.

You mean that one from last year that had the allies and such on it? Yeah, kinda figured.

 BryllCream wrote:
What do people who're familiar with pysker stuff think of the new Fateweaver? He can access any spell from any school, but has had his support aspect completely removed.

I think hes a complete support role now, just in a different way.

Fateweaver's job is now to stay back and bolt the heck out of units, the flame another. He can then buff his own allies with prescience. Being a level 4 psyker, he has a lot of options.

I'm surprised by the screamer thing. Are their normal attacks still AP2? Or no AP at all? I ask because everyone else who's seen the codex said there was no change to the horrors but they could have misinterpretted the trade all attacks for one part of the rule.

 pretre wrote:

HawkWall wrote:
Well, a guy with the Codex just said there isn't a unit called Warp Stalker in the codex..
So i guess the Leaked release list really was fake, unless its a Fantasy unit.

You mean that one from last year that had the allies and such on it? Yeah, kinda figured.

Yeah, someone really went out of their way to do it.

Well, i think that buries the sisters of battle pretty deep then.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Today, I had the chance to look into the new codex.
Well, from the structure it looks like the CSM codex, with psychic powers for the three gods.

Here are some random thoughts:
Daemonic instability is as it basically was in the previous incarnation with exceptions if double 1 or double 6 is rolled.
DPs are in the HQ section.
Greater Daemons can make DPs heavy support of the same god.
DPs can get iron hide and wings that makes them 205 pts before any mark. Marks are 10 to 25 pts.
MoN gives shrouding (+2 on cover save).
Troops are rather cheap, models cost 9 to 10 pts. Bloodletters have AP3 weapons.
Nurglings got boosted a bit.
Flamers cost the same as in the errata but got nerfed a bit with an S4 AP4 flamer.
Screamers are still jetbikes with 3 attacks which can be replaced by one S5 AP2 attack, with 2D6 vs tanks.

They have to swap for only 1 attack?! That's... Well... Crappy.

Its much more in line with a 25 point model.

Its good at killing vehicles, can do flyby attacks over light armored units, is a jetbike, and can do an AP2 attack.
All in all, its still pretty strong. Its just no longer waaaay OP

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Today, I had the chance to look into the new codex.
Well, from the structure it looks like the CSM codex, with psychic powers for the three gods.

Here are some random thoughts:
Daemonic instability is as it basically was in the previous incarnation with exceptions if double 1 or double 6 is rolled.
DPs are in the HQ section.
Greater Daemons can make DPs heavy support of the same god.
DPs can get iron hide and wings that makes them 205 pts before any mark. Marks are 10 to 25 pts.
MoN gives shrouding (+2 on cover save).
Troops are rather cheap, models cost 9 to 10 pts. Bloodletters have AP3 weapons.
Nurglings got boosted a bit.
Flamers cost the same as in the errata but got nerfed a bit with an S4 AP4 flamer.
Screamers are still jetbikes with 3 attacks which can be replaced by one S5 AP2 attack, with 2D6 vs tanks.

They have to swap for only 1 attack?! That's... Well... Crappy.

Phil: "Cruddace, we have to stop the dangers of an overpowered unit!"
Cruddace: "But Phil, whatever shall we do? We've nerfed the crap out of the codex already! Surely we can't do another unit, can't we?"
Phil: "That's what they will think, muhahahahahh!"

 labmouse42 wrote:
Flamers now just have a STR 4, AP4 flamer. Much like any other flamer.
While its a huge nurf, it was a needed nurf. They were really over the top.

Assuming you get 5 guys under each flamer template, flamers will still crush squad they get close to.
9 * 5 = 45 hits.
Vs T4 thats 22.5 wounds. Goodbye ork squad.
Vs MEQ thats 7.5 dead marines. Goodbye marine squad.

As you can see, they still flame things dead. They are just not completely broken like the were before the update.

nice but there are helldrakes too and it would suck to have an army which dies as soon as your opponent comes and he brings in 2-3 baledrakes.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

They have to swap for only 1 attack?! That's... Well... Crappy.

Yup, specifically says they swap all their normal attacks for it.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I'm surprised by the screamer thing. Are their normal attacks still AP2? Or no AP at all? I ask because everyone else who's seen the codex said there was no change to the horrors but they could have misinterpretted the trade all attacks for one part of the rule.

Well, I think its AP - just normal attacks.

By the way, the illustrations are rather underwhelming.

I am trying not to get sad from reading these rumors but it seems my current Daemon army got hit very hard from the Nerf Bat.

I do hope Fatey is still worth taking as I spent ages painting that model. At least my Blood Crushers can be converted into Khorne CSM bikes. I am glad i only have 9 Flamers too lol.

Whats everyone takes on Daemons being Allies with CSM? With such cheap scoring units I can see a whole a lot of benefits. I do like the 9 Screamers + Herald on a Disc DeathStar running with CSM Bikes or Spawn to put the pressure on straight away

From Faeit212:
Klaus SchächnerFebruary 28, 2013 at 9:39 AM

Icons and Banners act like homing beacons for deep striking units.

If the icon and deep striking daemon(s) are from the same deity, they don't scatter within 6" of the icon.
If the icon and deep striking daemon(s) are from different deities, the deep striking unit (when aiming for a spot within 6" of the icon) only scatters 1D6" instead of 2D6"
If one of the units (icon or deep striking) hasn't got the Daemon special rule, the icon has no effect whatsoever.

Standard icon costs 10 points, +10 points for a god specific icon.

There are several different icons for the different gods:

Khorne: Unit may attack 6+D6" (once per game)
Tzeentch: Inflicts 2D6 S4 AP- hits to a unit you shoot at (must declare before; once per game)
Nurgle: All attacks count as Poison (2+) (must declare before close combat; once per game)
Slaanesh: In close combat: takes D3 WS from enemy units in combat; Slaanesh units are immune (once per game)

Instruments have two purposes:

1) If a unit with an instruments comes into game via reserve, you can immediately get another daemon unit out of reserve (they don't have to roll)
2) If you roll on the warpstorm table and get e.g. the result where Khorne attacks Slaanesh units, you may re-roll ONE DIE that could be harmful for your Slaanesh models PER instrument of Khorne in your army and on the table (and of course in any other god combination, too).

Instruments of Chaos cost 10 points.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I'm surprised by the screamer thing. Are their normal attacks still AP2? Or no AP at all? I ask because everyone else who's seen the codex said there was no change to the horrors but they could have misinterpretted the trade all attacks for one part of the rule.

Screamers regular attacks are AP -. They can trade all of their attacks for 1 Strength 5, AP 2 Armorbane one. The move over vector slashing thing is still the same though.


My initial impression so far:

-Vanilla Greater Daemons are much better than named ones. This is mainly because you can up their psyker level, and take Daemonic Gifts. I expect GDs will almost always be rolling twice on the greater Daemon chart, and upping their Psyker level.

-Only the Changeling and Horrors are restricted to choosing from their God Lore. GUOs can take ML 3 and get 3 rolls on biomancy....

-Horrors are pretty bad, even with a herald. They DO NOT go up in Mastery level as the squad size increases, they only gain Warpcharges. So, you only get one power, and the only one you would ever take is the Primaris. Even with 3 Warp Charges, and the Strength
boost from the Locus, and a rerolls to hit from the Primaris Divination, you're only on average killing 4 marines. Warpflame is also terrible.

-Nurgle seems to come out on top, as far as troops go. You can give them FNP with a locus, and the Herald with a Balesword can be pretty nasty in challenges.

- I think the Soulgrinder will be the go to Heavy support choice. Comes standard with a powerfist, and a 3 Shot autocannon that you can use Skyfire with. You can then choose to upgrade a Mawcannon, with 1 of three choices, to fit in with the rest of your list.

-Screamers are still good, just not as good. Flamers are still pretty good, just not as good. Bloodcrushers are T4 with 3W and Cav now. Time will tell if they are good.

-There is something for every god here. There really are not a lot of bad choices in this book. The Gift charts are actually really good. The best thing is you can always swap for a Primaris.

By the way, the new Nurgle FA unit is cavalry and jump pack. We double checked. Seems a bit weird.

Mohoc wrote:
From Faeit212:
Klaus SchächnerFebruary 28, 2013 at 9:39 AM

Icons and Banners act like homing beacons for deep striking units.

If the icon and deep striking daemon(s) are from the same deity, they don't scatter within 6" of the icon.
If the icon and deep striking daemon(s) are from different deities, the deep striking unit (when aiming for a spot within 6" of the icon) only scatters 1D6" instead of 2D6"
If one of the units (icon or deep striking) hasn't got the Daemon special rule, the icon has no effect whatsoever.

Standard icon costs 10 points, +10 points for a god specific icon.

There are several different icons for the different gods:

Khorne: Unit may attack 6+D6" (once per game)
Tzeentch: Inflicts 2D6 S4 AP- hits to a unit you shoot at (must declare before; once per game)
Nurgle: All attacks count as Poison (2+) (must declare before close combat; once per game)
Slaanesh: In close combat: takes D3 WS from enemy units in combat; Slaanesh units are immune (once per game)

Instruments have two purposes:

1) If a unit with an instruments comes into game via reserve, you can immediately get another daemon unit out of reserve (they don't have to roll)
2) If you roll on the warpstorm table and get e.g. the result where Khorne attacks Slaanesh units, you may re-roll ONE DIE that could be harmful for your Slaanesh models PER instrument of Khorne in your army and on the table (and of course in any other god combination, too).

Instruments of Chaos cost 10 points.

Note that icons work even if they didnt start the turn on the table. If you have icon and instrument you can DS in then bring in another same godunit without scattering.

 wuestenfux wrote:
By the way, the new Nurgle FA unit is cavalry and jump pack. We double checked. Seems a bit weird.

Just means you get the best of both worlds.