Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

@chaospling

The soulgrinder in CC is still St10 due to a power fist. I was referencing the torrent flamer. AP3 would be better but AP4 on it is fine for the cost.

 Hulksmash wrote:
@chaospling

The soulgrinder in CC is still St10 due to a power fist. I was referencing the torrent flamer. AP3 would be better but AP4 on it is fine for the cost.

20 pts to slap a Hellhound turret on Mr. Grinder seems pretty reasonable, yes.

Chaospling wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
What does the torrent flamer upgrade cost on the Soul Grinder and what are it's stats?

At Faeit I read that it's S6 and AP3!!! If that's the case then... Christ... A Dreadnought with tiny weeny arms have S10 but such huge claws S6 and AP3. If that's the case, then GW will never sell me a Defiler or Soul Grinder...

The claws are Sx2 AP2.

That's what I thought too. Helps you deal with horde armies that can shoot and whittle down your own horde of gribblies. Things like 30 Shoota boy mobs or Blob Platoons.

I'm still shooting mostly in the dark but this book could see a shift overall away from blob squads. Right now I'm looking at adding 60 models to my CSM lists for 600pts. And they will be absolutely lethal.

Why would you ever take the sword? Yes master crafted, but otherwise it's really just 25 points more for a re-roll at base strength.

It gives you an extra claw attack if you so desire..

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Do Pink Horrors have any shooting that isn't a psychic power? Not loving that my 20-man squad can end up with 4 shots due to bad dice, or that the enemy can Deny the Witch and cancel out my shooting.

Not seen anything that indicates their standard warpfire is gone, but if they have not changed it to do less shot's or something...then my god these thing's would be monsters

Daemons are looking less and less appealing as a primary force the more little bits get released (e.g. the actually rather large nerf to screamers). Allies to my CSM looks like the way to go.

Edit: By the way, a good tactic for Horrors now appears to have a single model in LOS of the enemy and he can (it appears) be the source for all the psychic shooting attacks, and you only expose 1 model a turn to actual shooting casualties. Presumably you can also play some range games the same way against anti-psyker bubbles by having a further away model make the declared attacks.

Evileyes wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Do Pink Horrors have any shooting that isn't a psychic power? Not loving that my 20-man squad can end up with 4 shots due to bad dice, or that the enemy can Deny the Witch and cancel out my shooting.

Not seen anything that indicates their standard warpfire is gone, but if they have not changed it to do less shot's or something...then my god these thing's would be monsters

They have no ranged attack other than whatever psychic spell they roll off the chart.

TzeentchNet wrote:
Daemons are looking less and less appealing as a primary force the more little bits get released (e.g. the actually rather large nerf to screamers). Allies to my CSM looks like the way to go.

Odd, I'm feeling quite the opposite actually...

Yeah, I'm switching my CSM with Daemon allies to Daemons with CSM allies...

So daemons havegone from top tier to bottom tier, I'm talking rock bottom.

 Grimnarsmate wrote:
So daemons havegone from top tier to bottom tier, I'm talking rock bottom.

In fantasy?

 Grimnarsmate wrote:
So daemons havegone from top tier to bottom tier, I'm talking rock bottom.

Only if they are playing against Eldar with Runes of Cheese or Space Wolfs with Hood of "You cannot do anything on a roll of 4+"

 Grimnarsmate wrote:
So daemons havegone from top tier to bottom tier, I'm talking rock bottom.

Oh, well I guess if you say so. WTS: My Daemons...

You heard it here first. SELLLLLL!!!!!

Mohoc wrote:

 Grimnarsmate wrote:
So daemons havegone from top tier to bottom tier, I'm talking rock bottom.

Only if they are playing against Eldar with Runes of Cheese or Space Wolfs with Hood of "You cannot do anything on a roll of 4+"

Don't forget the Tyranid's Shadow in the Warp. They can cover the board in bubbles of 3d6 psychic tests.

Or just play Slaanesh and ignore all that silly finger waggling.

Mohoc wrote:

 Grimnarsmate wrote:
So daemons havegone from top tier to bottom tier, I'm talking rock bottom.

Only if they are playing against Eldar with Runes of Cheese or Space Wolfs with Hood of "You cannot do anything on a roll of 4+"

I do find the notion of mortal humans (space marines) blocking a demonic power to be...odd, to say the least. Very unfluffy, especially that demons themselves get no bonus to pysker defence whatsoever as far as I can tell.

 Brotherjanus wrote:

Mohoc wrote:

 Grimnarsmate wrote:
So daemons havegone from top tier to bottom tier, I'm talking rock bottom.

Only if they are playing against Eldar with Runes of Cheese or Space Wolfs with Hood of "You cannot do anything on a roll of 4+"

Don't forget the Tyranid's Shadow in the Warp. They can cover the board in bubbles of 3d6 psychic tests.

True. I forgot about "Shadow of a Slap a Daemon Around"

 Hulksmash wrote:

TzeentchNet wrote:
Daemons are looking less and less appealing as a primary force the more little bits get released (e.g. the actually rather large nerf to screamers). Allies to my CSM looks like the way to go.

Odd, I'm feeling quite the opposite actually...

Please do elaborate, Hulk'!

 Brotherjanus wrote:
Don't forget the Tyranid's Shadow in the Warp. They can cover the board in bubbles of 3d6 psychic tests.

Only by getting close enough to drown in rending daemonettes. And as a Tyranid player, I can tell you that "covering the board" with Shadows is much harder than you might think. And for all the PSAs in the book, walking out of Shadows is usually an option.

With the exception of Tzeentch, psychic powers for Daemons look like flavor enhancers, rather than must-haves. Tzeentch, well, Tzeentch-only builds will have to accept some bad match-ups, at least until Eldar gets updated & Runes goes away.

 BryllCream wrote:
I do find the notion of mortal humans (space marines) blocking a demonic power to be...odd, to say the least. Very unfluffy, especially that demons themselves get no bonus to pysker defence whatsoever as far as I can tell.

Well, except the bonuses to DTW that Khorne units get and the bonuses to DTW that any daemon unit with a psyker in it will get and...

Yeah, so, this just in... Being strongly psychic already gives you bonuses to psy defense in 6th.

Mohoc wrote:

 Grimnarsmate wrote:
So daemons havegone from top tier to bottom tier, I'm talking rock bottom.

Only if they are playing against Eldar with Runes of Cheese or Space Wolfs with Hood of "You cannot do anything on a roll of 4+"

Derp Knights will still be able to give us painfully one-sided matches as well. (at least Warp Quake isn't an auto-loss anymore!)
But then, we have solid rumors, (or rather Hastings), saying 'Eldar codex in Q4', so I suspect that their Runes of Cheese will be similarly nerfed as things like psyhoods have been.

But please, keep promoting the notion that Daemons now suck monkeyballs. It only means less bandwagoners to sully our good name and more fun when we crush opponents with our supposedly "bottom tier pile of steaming fecal matter codex."
Then it make the raging even more epic as suddenly the intertubes come alive next month with cries of, "OMG! Daemons are the most broken things EVAH!11!!!1!"

I agree with most of your assements, but here we diverge.
Take 20 horrors. Add a herald, make him a level 2 psyker with exaulted locus of conjuration. Take the primary from divination and change. Cast prescience on the horror unit every turn from the herald, who gets 2 warp charge spells per turn.
Your horrors then shoot 4d6 STR 6 attacks hitting 75% of the time.
Your herald shoots 2d6 STR 6 attacks hitting 89% of the time.
You hit 16.73 times, you wound 13.94 times, and 4.64 MEQ die.

Your saying "Only kills 4 MEQ" but to get that same result, you would need to fire 41.55 bolter shots! Your saying that one squad of horrors + herald have as much firepower at 21 MEQ within rapid fire range. How is that bad again?

Since the horrors are STR 6 as well, your also a threat to vehicles - particular flyers. The horror unit will snap shot and hit flyers with ~6.3 STR 6 hits per turn. That's going to do some damage to night scythes,

Perhaps you're right. I may have overreacted when I realized their Mastery Level didn't go up with their numbers.

It might be worth rolling the Heralds as Level 3 Psykers for a shot at infernal gateway as well. With the +1 strength to Psychic attacks, that gives you a minimum strength 6 AP 1 blast, to go with the rest of the Horrors, and you can always double Warp Charge the Primaris if you're dealing with GEQ.

I still think Warpflame will be a problem, since MEQs will be gaining FNP 66% of the time, and the way I read it, it will continue to stack.

As for AA, I think Soulgrinders will cover that pretty well. The Strength 10 shot and the Battlecannon seem like the best upgrades to me.

 pretre wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
I do find the notion of mortal humans (space marines) blocking a demonic power to be...odd, to say the least. Very unfluffy, especially that demons themselves get no bonus to pysker defence whatsoever as far as I can tell.

Well, except the bonuses to DTW that Khorne units get and the bonuses to DTW that any daemon unit with a psyker in it will get and...

Yeah, so, this just in... Being strongly psychic already gives you bonuses to psy defense in 6th.

The fluff in 40k makes it quite clear why you don't use psyker powers when there are demons about - a rule that was 100% fluff would simply remove a model from play if it tried to use it. Obviously that would be absurd but something to represent that demons are the warp made incarnate would be nice. There's something underwealming about how easily Demon's powers can now be blocked.

I much preferred the "old" books approach, which imo was good at representing demons' use of powers by simply treating them as shooting attacks or automatic. I don't like that an action *I* take has a risk of harming my own men, which is why I don't take plasma guns. The fact that most of my army will have to go through this gak in every game is pretty offputting.

Experiment 626 wrote:

But please, keep promoting the notion that Daemons now suck monkeyballs. It only means less bandwagoners to sully our good name and more fun when we crush opponents with our supposedly "bottom tier pile of steaming fecal matter codex."
Then it make the raging even more epic as suddenly the intertubes come alive next month with cries of, "OMG! Daemons are the most broken things EVAH!11!!!1!"

I know

 Sasori wrote:

Perhaps you're right. I may have overreacted when I realized their Mastery Level didn't go up with their numbers.

It might be worth rolling the Heralds as Level 3 Psykers for a shot at infernal gateway as well. With the +1 strength to Psychic attacks, that gives you a minimum strength 6 AP 1 blast, to go with the rest of the Horrors, and you can always double Warp Charge the Primaris if you're dealing with GEQ.

I still think Warpflame will be a problem, since MEQs will be gaining FNP 66% of the time, and the way I read it, it will continue to stack.

As for AA, I think Soulgrinders will cover that pretty well. The Strength 10 shot and the Battlecannon seem like the best upgrades to me.

Warpflame is a minor annoyance at best. AFIK, it only tests once all your shooting at a particular unit is finished, so only one toughness test AND it only lasts until the begining of the next daemonic shooting phase.

And if you're really, really paranoid about it, run a Nurgle psyker or two alongside your Tzeentch shooters to try and hit the enemy with the -1T malediction power from Biomancy. Suddenly MEQ's are now only 50/50 shot at passing.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

Perhaps you're right. I may have overreacted when I realized their Mastery Level didn't go up with their numbers.

It might be worth rolling the Heralds as Level 3 Psykers for a shot at infernal gateway as well. With the +1 strength to Psychic attacks, that gives you a minimum strength 6 AP 1 blast, to go with the rest of the Horrors, and you can always double Warp Charge the Primaris if you're dealing with GEQ.

I still think Warpflame will be a problem, since MEQs will be gaining FNP 66% of the time, and the way I read it, it will continue to stack.

As for AA, I think Soulgrinders will cover that pretty well. The Strength 10 shot and the Battlecannon seem like the best upgrades to me.

Warpflame is a minor annoyance at best. AFIK, it only tests once all your shooting at a particular unit is finished, so only one toughness test AND it only lasts until the begining of the next daemonic shooting phase.

And if you're really, really paranoid about it, run a Nurgle psyker or two alongside your Tzeentch shooters to try and hit the enemy with the -1T malediction power from Biomancy. Suddenly MEQ's are now only 50/50 shot at passing.

If they gain FNP, it is for the rest of the game. It will continue to stack as well.

It will be interesting to see how this codex plays out. On the positive side, units seem fast, lethal, and relatively cheaper. On the other hand, Daemon players will have to contend with a host of random elements and increasingly fragile and specialized units.

Troops are cheaper and better, but they were complete crap before, which is why you commonly saw 3x5 Plaguebearers as troops. While it does seem like there is increased troop utility, they are all one dimensional. Lack of grenades has always hurt Daemons as well.

While there are lots of fast, multi-wound models, they are also not eternal warrior and possess a terrible save. Those Blood Crushers, Screamers, Flamers, Fiends, and Fleshhouds all fear strength 8. Manticores will do serious work to them.

Finally, the random elements seem very make or break. Daemonic Instability is bad. 1/6 chance to disappear for at least a turn. Even when you deepstrike back, you are pretty much out of it again if you are an assault unit. The Warp Storm table is crazy too.

I don't want to make snap judgements though. Thus far, it seems as though there are lots of "good" specialized units, but few "great" ones. Then again, I haven't read through. Hopefully, Daemons are at least fun to play.