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I don't think they "suck monkeyballs", but I'm not sure why people are so excited over bad AA units (BS3 S7, Heavy 3 whoopedy-do), overpriced jump flamers, and entire entries that can be hard countered by common opponents. They do add options as allies that are really nice though, especially for CSM wanting cheap troops that are not terrible cultists.

The Tzeentch chariot has potential though (3 Heldrakes plus another torrent flamer + Brand is just too hilarious to pass up), and daemonettes look pretty cool. Get a HQ with the portal for potentially free troops and you're set.

 blood reaper wrote:
Why would you ever take the sword? Yes master crafted, but otherwise it's really just 25 points more for a re-roll at base strength.

Only if you previously modeled the soulgrinder with the sword, thinking it was very cool to have one soul grinder with a claw and the other a sword....

Yea....

Seemed like a good idea at the time...

TzeentchNet wrote:
The Tzeentch chariot has potential though (3 Heldrakes plus another torrent flamer + Brand is just too hilarious to pass up), and daemonettes look pretty cool. Get a HQ with the portal for potentially free troops and you're set.

You are thinking to short sighted.

3 helldrakes
4 heralds as HQ choices (taking one HQ slot) Each on a flaming chariot.
1 flame chariot

That's 8 torrent STR 5/6 AP3 torrent flamers.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Why would you ever take the sword? Yes master crafted, but otherwise it's really just 25 points more for a re-roll at base strength.

Only if you previously modeled the soulgrinder with the sword, thinking it was very cool to have one soul grinder with a claw and the other a sword....

Yea....

Seemed like a good idea at the time...

An extra S10 AP2 swing isn't trivial. Is it worth 25 points? I dunno.

 Grimnarsmate wrote:
So daemons havegone from top tier to bottom tier, I'm talking rock bottom.

Absolutely.

Ill be happy to buy your daemons for 20% of retail.

 labmouse42 wrote:
You are thinking to short sighted.

3 helldrakes
4 heralds as HQ choices (taking one HQ slot) Each on a flaming chariot.
1 flame chariot

That's 8 torrent STR 5/6 AP3 torrent flamers.

What, no Soul Grinders with their torrent weapon?

skarsol wrote:
An extra S10 AP2 swing isn't trivial. Is it worth 25 points? I dunno.

I also acknowlege that there are some targets that AP3, STR 6, master crafted is better. MEQ come to mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

skarsol wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
You are thinking to short sighted.

3 helldrakes
4 heralds as HQ choices (taking one HQ slot) Each on a flaming chariot.
1 flame chariot

That's 8 torrent STR 5/6 AP3 torrent flamers.

What, no Soul Grinders with their torrent weapon?

Alas they compete with that final flame chariot. I guess 7 AP3 torrent is enough, right?

You are thinking to short sighted.

3 helldrakes
4 heralds as HQ choices (taking one HQ slot) Each on a flaming chariot.
1 flame chariot

That's 8 torrent STR 5/6 AP3 torrent flamers.

Don't tempt me, that's expensive But lordy would it be hilarious.

 JGrand wrote:
Troops are cheaper and better, but they were complete crap before, which is why you commonly saw 3x5 Plaguebearers as troops. While it does seem like there is increased troop utility, they are all one dimensional. Lack of grenades has always hurt Daemons as well.

Yea, its wacked. When rebooting the chaos daemon codex, they said "Lets change them from having the worst troops in the game to some of the best troops in the game"

Seriously. PlagueBearers are the best deck chairs in the game.

So, judging by the Fantasy rumors, it looks like Ward succeeded again at royally screwing up the army...

Except this time, instead of everything being outright 'uber, he's one-up'ed it by making things either 'stupidly good' or 'stupidly god-awful bad'.
Oh well, I guess that means there's options this time 'round, right?!

TzeentchNet wrote:
Don't tempt me, that's expensive But lordy would it be hilarious.

I'm worried that the AV 10 chariots would be to fragile. Part of what makes helldrakes work is that they are extremely durable. The flamer chariots die when you look at them.

On the plus side, they can shoot 3 heavy blasts at STR 9 in addition to their torrent. Oh, and the herald on them can also fire his blast
(assuming that you don't lose the pink and blue fires by adding a herald, I might be vastly wrong)

Edit : The herald replaces the exaulted flamer. The exaulted flamer is the one with the red and pink fire. Oh well, it was a good thought....

 labmouse42 wrote:

 JGrand wrote:
Troops are cheaper and better, but they were complete crap before, which is why you commonly saw 3x5 Plaguebearers as troops. While it does seem like there is increased troop utility, they are all one dimensional. Lack of grenades has always hurt Daemons as well.

Yea, its wacked. When rebooting the chaos daemon codex, they said "Lets change them from having the worst troops in the game to some of the best troops in the game"

Seriously. PlagueBearers are the best deck chairs in the game.

I am actually quite pissed at my PBs loosing 1 Toughness, 1 Initiative and FNP. I know they went down in price to 9 points and gained shrouded, but to me it takes the flavor out of them. I would not mind paying 11 points for them if they had just lost FNP or the stat change, but loosing both sees like a slap into the face of every Nurgle player. The FNP I can at least get back by using an expensive model that can be sniped with the prevalence of artillery, but that does not really fix the loss of it.

Mohoc wrote:

I am actually quite pissed at my PBs loosing 1 Toughness, 1 Initiative and FNP. I know they went down in price to 9 points and gained shrouded, but to me it takes the flavor out of them. I would not mind paying 11 points for them if they had just lost FNP or the stat change, but loosing both sees like a slap into the face of every Nurgle player. The FNP I can at least get back by using an expensive model that can be sniped with the prevalence of artillery, but that does not really fix the loss of it.

New design paradigm, it seems. "If it's scoring, it's also worse and cheaper, so buy extra!" It's the case with the CD troops and all CSM potential scoring units. DA seems to be the exception, but their coolest scoring stuff is still a bit too pricey to truly spam, so it better be strong.

Mohoc wrote:
I am actually quite pissed at my PBs loosing 1 Toughness, 1 Initiative and FNP. I know they went down in price to 9 points and gained shrouded, but to me it takes the flavor out of them. I would not mind paying 11 points for them if they had just lost FNP or the stat change, but loosing both sees like a slap into the face of every Nurgle player. The FNP I can at least get back by using an expensive model that can be sniped with the prevalence of artillery, but that does not really fix the loss of it.

It sounds worse at first, but plague bearers are actually much better at being deck chairs than they were before.

First you need to understand a concept called Resilience-Per-Point (RPP). Simply put, a plague marine is significantly better at resisting a bolter shot than an ork -- but the ork is much cheaper. What is the breaking point at when the ork is a better unit.

Using the RPP values, lets see what a bolter did to the old PB.
The old plague bearer had a RPP to MEQ bolter fire of a 67.49. That's actually very respectable and on the same level as grey hunters
The new plague bearers have an RPP value of 199.98 to that same MEQ bolter fire! That's right! They are now three times as Resilience-Per-Point as they were. That's a staggering value.

If your sad that your plague bearers are not out killing everything that moved. Well, that's not changed since the last codex. If you want to have an all nurgle army bring beasts and flies to do your killing. Plauge bearers are about holding objectives in your table half. (well, since you can also deep strike them....)

If having your deck chair units RPP values jump threefold is slap in the face, I would hate to see what getting the snot beat out of you would be.

Also, 2+ (15/18) cover in ruins, 3+ (12/18) in forests, normal terrain is a lot more survivable than 5++/5+ FNP (10/18) in most instances.

How does that compare in melee though where cover no longer matters?

Could we possibly have all the rumours put in the OP please?

It makes it far easier than going through several pages to get to the good stuff.

skarsol wrote:
How does that compare in melee though where cover no longer matters?

Poorly.

Thanks Labmouse for explaining better than I could of. People will still complain though. I'll let them play with their old rules against me if they want to..

pretre wrote:Also, 2+ (15/18) cover in ruins, 3+ (12/18) in forests, normal terrain is a lot more survivable than 5++/5+ FNP (10/18) in most instances.

They can also now go to ground, getting a 2+ in forests.

skarsol wrote:How does that compare in melee though where cover no longer matters?

Your missing the point of deck chair units.
Were playing in a game where 5/6 of the missions are objective/relic based. In 3/5 of those, you have multiple objectives. This means 50% of the time, your going to be dealing with multiple objectives. 66.66% of the time, your dealing with some objectives. If you play in tourneys, often troops are even more important for grabbing quarters in addition to objectives.

You don't want to put your heavy hitter units on objectives close to your board side. A unit of paladins sitting on an objective near your board edge is a complete waste. You have a ton of points that's literally doing nothing. Instead you want to put a cheap unit that can resist shooting attacks. This is called a 'deck-chair' unit. This lets you focus your heavy hitters where they need to be.

Now, can someone deep strike their 5 TH/SS in the middle of your army and attack your deck chairs? Yes, and its been done before. Usually when its done, you turn your horror/daemonette/KoS/Bloodthirster around and turn the MEQ into a pile of fine mist. The only real deck-chair killer Ive seen thats decent are 4 flamers drop podding in. Thats not as big of a threat to the plague bearers as they are T4 and have a 5++ save.

That's what I mean by 'deck-chair' unit. The fact that plague bearers are now argueably the best one in the game is remarkable.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Mohoc wrote:
I am actually quite pissed at my PBs loosing 1 Toughness, 1 Initiative and FNP. I know they went down in price to 9 points and gained shrouded, but to me it takes the flavor out of them. I would not mind paying 11 points for them if they had just lost FNP or the stat change, but loosing both sees like a slap into the face of every Nurgle player. The FNP I can at least get back by using an expensive model that can be sniped with the prevalence of artillery, but that does not really fix the loss of it.

It sounds worse at first, but plague bearers are actually much better at being deck chairs than they were before.

First you need to understand a concept called Resilience-Per-Point (RPP). Simply put, a plague marine is significantly better at resisting a bolter shot than an ork -- but the ork is much cheaper. What is the breaking point at when the ork is a better unit.

Using the RPP values, lets see what a bolter did to the old PB.
The old plague bearer had a RPP to MEQ bolter fire of a 67.49. That's actually very respectable and on the same level as grey hunters
The new plague bearers have an RPP value of 199.98 to that same MEQ bolter fire! That's right! They are now three times as Resilience-Per-Point as they were. That's a staggering value.

If your sad that your plague bearers are not out killing everything that moved. Well, that's not changed since the last codex. If you want to have an all nurgle army bring beasts and flies to do your killing. Plauge bearers are about holding objectives in your table half. (well, since you can also deep strike them....)

If having your deck chair units RPP values jump threefold is slap in the face, I would hate to see what getting the snot beat out of you would be.

That is only true if the plague bearer is in 4+ cover. Any other time Plaguebearers fare far worse. Not only that, you have to take into account other issues such as Slow and Purposeful preventing you from running, making Deep Striking Plaguebearers suicidal unless you deepstrike straight into ruins. They also got significantly worse in combat. Before I could get assault and defensive grenades thru Heralds, now I just get offensive grenades on a unit that now always swings last anyways. I no longer have FNP, and almost everything out there wounds me suddenly on a 4+ so my survivability went out the window in that regard. But yes, my Plaguebearers hiding in a ruin got more survivable against everything that is not a flame template or faster than an Ork in close combat.

There are people who enjoy running mono-lists. Nurgle plaguebearers was their melee, fighting option.

 Swara wrote:
Thanks Labmouse for explaining better than I could of. People will still complain though. I'll let them play with their old rules against me if they want to..

LOL, no doubt. "My crappy troop choices have worked for me for the past 5 years, and I don't wanna change! I'll keep the crappy troops and the crappy screamers/flamers!"
(crappy screamers/flamers in comparison to the OP ones anyway)

I'm serious when I say Ill offer people 20% of retail for their daemons. If they really think their army is over and want to sell out, Ill be happy to take the models.

Mohoc wrote:
That is only true if the plague bearer is in 4+ cover. Any other time Plaguebearers fare far worse. Not only that, you have to take into account other issues such as Slow and Purposeful preventing you from running, making Deep Striking Plaguebearers suicidal unless you deepstrike straight into ruins. t.

Any area cover works.

5+ Base Area Cover Save
3+ Shrouded
2+ Going to Ground

If you have no area terrain, then you have other issues with your FLGS

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
There are people who enjoy running mono-lists. Nurgle plaguebearers was their melee, fighting option.

I think they were people that liked abusing the 'tally lists'.
As expected, those are gone. Come on guys. That's like a DE expecting the beast pack of cheese will live past the next book. It isn't going to happen. GW has been fixing horribly broken things lately (to varying degrees of success) We all knew the tally was on the chopping block.
60 plague bearers without epi could not fight their way out of a wet paper bag in the last edition.
Now if you want to go mono-nurgle you have options. Flies, Beasts, GUO, Daemon Princes, Soul Grinders, etc...


Dont get me wrong guys. Im pissed about some things. My nicely painted fateweaver looks to be garbage now. My bloodcrushers will only see the light of day as heralds of Khorne. Skulltaker should now be called 'Shelf-taker" because the only thing he will be taking up now is shelf space. I also realize what has changed in the codex. Troops have gone form the worst choice to one of the best.

Best use for plaguebearers I can think of.

Aegis defence line + shrouded = 2+ cover. Take a herald of Nurgle to use his BS5 to man either the quadgun or the lascannon and bam. One objective is almost sure to be yours as long as you intercept any close combat units heading that direction.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Swara wrote:
Thanks Labmouse for explaining better than I could of. People will still complain though. I'll let them play with their old rules against me if they want to..

LOL, no doubt. "My crappy troop choices have worked for me for the past 5 years, and I don't wanna change! I'll keep the crappy troops and the crappy screamers/flamers!"
(crappy screamers/flamers in comparison to the OP ones anyway)

I'm serious when I say Ill offer people 20% of retail for their daemons. If they really think their army is over and want to sell out, Ill be happy to take the models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mohoc wrote:
That is only true if the plague bearer is in 4+ cover. Any other time Plaguebearers fare far worse. Not only that, you have to take into account other issues such as Slow and Purposeful preventing you from running, making Deep Striking Plaguebearers suicidal unless you deepstrike straight into ruins. t.

Any area cover works.

5+ Base Area Cover Save
3+ Shrouded
2+ Going to Ground

If you have no area terrain, then you have other issues with your FLGS


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
There are people who enjoy running mono-lists. Nurgle plaguebearers was their melee, fighting option.

I think they were people that liked abusing the 'tally lists'.
As expected, those are gone. Come on guys. That's like a DE expecting the beast pack of cheese will live past the next book. It isn't going to happen. GW has been fixing horribly broken things lately (to varying degrees of success)
60 plague bearers without epi could not fight their way out of a wet paper bag in the last edition. I know, I ran 20 of them. They were deckchairs.

Now if you want to go mono-nurgle you have options. Flies, Beasts, GUO, Daemon Princes, Soul Grinders, etc...

Tell you what. I will still give my 120 Plaguebearers a lease on life. We will see how they play out with the new codex. Time to stop being negative about one unit when I like everything else I have seen so far.

100 plague bearers is 900 points of t4 shrouded goodness. The smelly tide approaches...

Mohoc wrote:
Tell you what. I will still give my 120 Plaguebearers a lease on life. We will see how they play out with the new codex. Time to stop being negative about one unit when I like everything else I have seen so far.

Look at it this way. Now you can field all 120 at once if you want, and still have plenty of points for HQ & support elements, all in a normal-sized list.

 xole wrote:
100 plague bearers is 900 points of t4 shrouded goodness. The smelly tide approaches...

You know what happens when you ignite methane, right?

 Janthkin wrote:

Mohoc wrote:
Tell you what. I will still give my 120 Plaguebearers a lease on life. We will see how they play out with the new codex. Time to stop being negative about one unit when I like everything else I have seen so far.

Look at it this way. Now you can field all 120 at once if you want, and still have plenty of points for HQ & support elements, all in a normal-sized list.

I know , especially considering that the standard game at my FLGS is 2K

Anyone have an idea how big the chariots are? I'm trying to guess at how hard it's going to be to hide them from enemy shooting so they don't explode from mean looks.

Mohoc wrote:
Tell you what. I will still give my 120 Plaguebearers a lease on life. We will see how they play out with the new codex. Time to stop being negative about one unit when I like everything else I have seen so far.

120 is quite a bit!
If your using them as your main punch, you will need 4 heralds to help boost the damage output -- their biggest weakness.

You also want to use some beasts as elites and flies as fast attack. Your going to need something that can actually deliver a blow. That will also keep your theme going.
I would bring 80 plague bearers, with one herald in each squad. Start with that and see how it works. Oh, and a palequin for each herald. Those are pretty good.
Remember, heralds are ICs and LoS on a 2+. This means if your not ID'ed your not going to be hurt badly by barrage weapons. Manticores will mess up your day, but hey -- every list has bad matchups.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 newbis wrote:
Anyone have an idea how big the chariots are? I'm trying to guess at how hard it's going to be to hide them from enemy shooting so they don't explode from mean looks.

I would guess they are the same size as the slaanesh chariots give or take.

Your probably not going to be hiding them easily. On the plus side they are AV 12.