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In Fantasy he copies the stats, may take either value if dual stat (mounted character), unless the other model is in a challenge the Changeling isn't in.

In 40k he copies the stats.

I've got a look at the new codex and I have to say I like it a lot.

***Warning. I started out writing a few vague impressions and ended by writing an essay. You have been warned. Also, sorry.***

A few of the things that I like:

Aegis Defense Lines are amazing with daemon armies now. I don't own one, so I have to get a look at one to measure it, but as long as they are at least 1 and a quarter inches tall you'll be able to give 2+ cover to Nurgle Soul Grinders. 2+ cover and 5+ invuln armor 13 turrets--no one wants to deal with that. Plaguebearers on quadguns are quite resilient, too, against most things. This is the sort of back line that can withstand any but the most concerted firepower.

Soul Grinders: see Aegis Defense Lines.

Fateweaver makes an awesome choice as a Daemons warlord. If you bring a herald equipped with the Grimoire of True Names (preferably hiding somewhere that is out of sight so that it doesn't die on turn 1) you have a T5 flying monstrous creature warlord with a rerollable 2+ invuln save every turn, assuming you don't fail two rolls in a row getting the Grimoire of True Names to go off, who gives access to a free re-roll of any one dice a turn, allows a separate free re-roll of the warp table every turn, has access to every psychic discipline in the rulebook outside of telekinesis (though, granted, not all at once), and can send out a potential 4d6 S5 AP4 shots with Flickering Fire of Tzeentch every turn while still being able to afford one of his other powers. Oh, and he's a monstrous creature too so, on the off chance you need him to stomp a vehicle, he can try to do that, too. Not bad for 30 points less than his old iteration.

Access to cheap troops: I realize this was part of some grand strategy on the part of GW to sell models, but the drop in points cost of Daemon troops is still a sizable buff to our army. Someone pointed out earlier that Plaguebearers are now even better at holding down objectives than they were before, and I think a similar thing has happened for all of our troops. Daemonettes, for instance, are just as survivable as they used to be, hit just about as hard for their points, and are significantly cheaper. I think they'll make an excellent jamming unit. Bloodletters aren't quite as well off, but I think they're still in a better spot than they were before, especially if you incorporate Heralds. The only possible outlier is Pink Horrors. They're dirt cheap like the rest of our troops but their offense has dropped like a rock. I don't like the 2/3 chance they have of giving a Marine (or worse: an Ork) unit that they've shot stackable levels of feel no pain, either. I'm going to experiment with them and try and make them work, but I have a feeling they won't do too well.

Anything Slaanesh: seriously, even the fiends seem to have come off better than any of their counterparts in the much diminished Daemon elite slot. As I've said, Daemonettes are, at least in my opinion, superior to bloodletters. They've lost 1 initiative and attack, but have gained 1 WS and +3" on runs in trade, not to mention the fact that they've gone down in cost by more than a third of what they previously were and haven't gone down in survivability at all. I compare these things to Dark Eldar Wyches and my mind boggles. Seekers of Slaanesh are my pick for best fast attack slot, too.

Psykers: I admit to being unfamiliar with the usefulness of psykers in 40k, as the two armies I play are Daemons and Dark Eldar, but having consistent access to all of the psychic disciplines in the rulebook via heralds/daemon princes feels potent to me.

Unpredictability and Adaptability: all of the equipment for our HQs and characters, which we don't need to select until after we have rolled for our gifts (aka: in game), our myriad psychic powers, and our access to things which allow us to manipulate the large numbers of powerful random effects inherent in our codex (mainly via Fateweaver) makes the new daemon army both adaptable and difficult for an opponent to predict. You can, for instance, choose to take a mastercrafted ap 2 sword rather than a +2 strength ap 4 on your Tzeentch Herald with a Lesser Reward if you find yourself playing against a Marine list, or vice versa if you're up against Orks. Our excellent speed and easy access to flying monstrous creature HQs will make us hard to pin down, too. The major downside to all of this is that Daemon players are likely to become infamous for taking an hour to set up their army before a game starts, but oh well.

Deep Striking: The Daemon army now has deep strike across the board without having to deepstrike. In addition, the icons that we use to mitigate scatter issues have been dropped in cost a lot and have suffered only a moderate nerf to their utility. I can easily see a nasty Slaaneshi alpha strike list being built with large chunks of Daemonettes, flying Daemon Princes of Slaanesh, a Keeper of Secrets and four Heralds of Slaanesh, and Seekers of Slaanesh with Icons of Chaos.


A few of the things I don't like:

Chariots: the new chariots might be worth taking, but most of them hog a heavy support slot, and I don't see them competing with my soulgrinders any time soon. I would have loved to have seen more chariots in non HS slots like the Slaanesh one is. Oh well.

Warp Storm Table: No matter what they do to protect themselves from it Daemon players can still be easily screwed out of a game by the Warp Storm Table. Large units should blunt the occasional snake eyes (all units must take an instability test) and our ready access to extremely cheap character upgrades makes a bad experience with the 3 roll really unlikely (super instability on one of your random characters), but the 4 on the warp storm table is extraordinarily harsh. Having our entire army reduced to a 6+ save for a turn is not good in any way shape or form. Copious use of available cover (yay Aegis defense line!) should help, as should our new found ability to go to ground, but it's still likely to shut down a turn at best and cost the game at worst. The 4 result on the warp storm table is the main reason I'm currently intending to bring Fateweaver in most of my lists.

Daemonic Instability: Daemonic instability really forces daemons to take large units and spam heralds, in my opinion. If we lose a combat by, say, 5 models, which I don't find unlikely given the tools we have access to now, most of our units will be taking an additional 2d6-2 wounds. That's an extra 3 or 4 unsavable wounds on average. On a 20 (now 15) man blood letter unit that's not too big of a tax. Suffering this amount on two 10 man bloodletter units each would suck. The double ones healing you to your previous amount and double 6s killing your entire unit nonsense is hard to fathom, too. I'm so glad for the reroll item that Fateweaver brings, and so sad I can't have more of it.

So basically, Daemons have turned into a real swarm army, that are really good at cc, terribad at shooting, virtually no armour saves and are going to have a really tough time of getting into cc?

I dunno... I mean I really like the models, some of them are really nice looking, but some of the new rules are just garbage.

Bloodcrushers for example... 6+ save? Juggernauts are iron warhorses with badassitude, they should be 4+ minimum.

Horrors... Used to be a fairly Dakka unit, but now with that stackable fnp bonus to your enemy, what is the point in taking them?

On the upside... the army finally represents the fluff. Daemons have always been a daemonic horde in the lore, but never on the tabletop. I welcome this.

So how is this army supposed to play out?

Puscifer wrote:
So basically, Daemons have turned into a real swarm army, that are really good at cc, terribad at shooting, virtually no armour saves and are going to have a really tough time of getting into cc?

I dunno... I mean I really like the models, some of them are really nice looking, but some of the new rules are just garbage.

Bloodcrushers for example... 6+ save? Juggernauts are iron warhorses with badassitude, they should be 4+ minimum.

Horrors... Used to be a fairly Dakka unit, but now with that stackable fnp bonus to your enemy, what is the point in taking them?

On the upside... the army finally represents the fluff. Daemons have always been a daemonic horde in the lore, but never on the tabletop. I welcome this.

So how is this army supposed to play out?

From what I am seeing based on this new codex, Daemons now occupy an in-between role from pure horde armies and MEQ. They are cheap enough to be run as hordes, but powerful enough o their own, with their ++ saves, being fearless, and AP 3/ rending weapons in the case of Khorne/Slaneesh that they can till do damage if their unit is cut down. For example, charge 5 boys or 5 gaunts into a unit of tacticals and they're gonna get cut down while the marines lose maybe one guy. Charge 5 bloodletters or daemonettes into the same unit, and while they'll probably still die, their Ap3/rending weapons means they may yet also take down a good number of marines with them before they do.

I'm only counting Khorne and Tzeentch here since Nurgle and Tzeentch troops fulfill different roles (Shooting for Horrors, Objective holding for PBs)

An in between role?

Please explain, all I'm seeing is a cc horde army with liitle support from range or to get to the front line.

I have found something though...

Four Nurgle Heralds with fnp locus... four large units of PB going objective grabbing. That's something that will be tough to get rid of.

I can see a reason for Eradicators now.

It's interesting how much people like Go To Ground. Yes you'll get some extra cover save, but the unit can't do anything the following turn. That's quite some movement you lose there.

As for Bloodcrushers, then a S5 AP3 Cavalry unit is quite awesome, but I agree that the toughness of the unit doesn't live up to the model which is a must for me to use the unit.
T4 and Armour save 6+ is ridiculous for such a behemoth. I had the same feeling for Defilers in 5th edition.

Well, mostly it's talked about for Plaguebearers and since they are not really supposed to go somewhere as objective sitters, not moving sounds fine to me

I'll definitely use them this way as allies for my CSM, and what I've heard so far makes me really want to start a Daemon army too

Chaospling wrote:
It's interesting how much people like Go To Ground. Yes you'll get some extra cover save, but the unit can't do anything the following turn. That's quite some movement you lose there.

As for Bloodcrushers, then a S5 AP3 Cavalry unit is quite awesome, but I agree that the toughness of the unit doesn't live up to the model which is a must for me to use the unit.
T4 and Armour save 6+ is ridiculous for such a behemoth. I had the same feeling for Defilers in 5th edition.

I'm still hoping the juggernaut still gives a 3+ and 1+T, and they forgot to mention it in the statline xD t4 6+ is a really bad nerf when coming from t5 3+ EW... even accounting for the extra wound

 Requiem wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
It's interesting how much people like Go To Ground. Yes you'll get some extra cover save, but the unit can't do anything the following turn. That's quite some movement you lose there.

As for Bloodcrushers, then a S5 AP3 Cavalry unit is quite awesome, but I agree that the toughness of the unit doesn't live up to the model which is a must for me to use the unit.
T4 and Armour save 6+ is ridiculous for such a behemoth. I had the same feeling for Defilers in 5th edition.

I'm still hoping the juggernaut still gives a 3+ and 1+T, and they forgot to mention it in the statline xD t4 6+ is a really bad nerf when coming from t5 3+ EW... even accounting for the extra wound

They do not get the Warpforged armor (3+)

Essentially they were useful previous dex, and now that people have bought them, they nerfed it right into the ground.

Fiends got nerfed, but not as badly..Still rather bad though.

IMHO the cost per wound of juggernauts are to high. At 15 points pet wound they are very costly. If theyhad EW it would be worth it still but without EW MLs are removing 45 point models.

I think seekers are the better option. 12 points each. Decent offensive power. The ability to move 21 inches a turn when running

Im not taking fiends. The only decent multi wound models are greater daemons, DPs, and beasts of Nurgle. Even th masque, whom is really cool will die when looked at

So I really couldn't be bothered going through the last few pages looking for the changes to Nurgle in fantasy, can someone please sum that up for me?

 jonolikespie wrote:
So I really couldn't be bothered going through the last few pages looking for the changes to Nurgle in fantasy, can someone please sum that up for me?

Yeah, but we couldn't be bothered to write it down

 labmouse42 wrote:
IMHO the cost per wound of juggernauts are to high. At 15 points pet wound they are very costly. If theyhad EW it would be worth it still but without EW MLs are removing 45 point models.

I think seekers are the better option. 12 points each. Decent offensive power. The ability to move 21 inches a turn when running

Im not taking fiends. The only decent multi wound models are greater daemons, DPs, and beasts of Nurgle. Even th masque, whom is really cool will die when looked at

I don't know, I think with the Grimoire of True names they can be made quite effective. I'm also don't see near as much Strength 8 as I used to, really only Space Wolves seem to carry a lot. I'm seeing much more plasma, and Bloodcrushers will be pretty effective against that.

We will just have to try it and see.

Oh, for what its worth. I figured out something.
Reading the daemon special rules, it appears that most CSM units cannot be joined by daemons.
"Daemons can only join units that are comprised entirely of Daemons of the same alignment as themselves (i.e. a Herald of Slaanesh may not join a unit of Plaguebearers)

Possessed and Warp Talons are daemons. Provided the alignments match up, you can have a herald join your unit of possessed.

While I doubt that passing SnP/Shrouded/FNP to a squad of Nurgle Possessed would be all that awesome, there you are.
Maybe if you inflitrated them using Huron as your warlord? While they are SnP, they are still Fleet. (riddle me that batman)

You could also run Khorne warp talons and stick 4 heralds on Juggernaughts in the squad. That would be a pretty frightening and fast moving beatstick unit.

 labmouse42 wrote:
We will just have to try it and see.

Oh, for what its worth. I figured out something.
Reading the daemon special rules, it appears that most CSM units cannot be joined by daemons.
"Daemons can only join units that are comprised entirely of Daemons of the same alignment as themselves (i.e. a Herald of Slaanesh may not join a unit of Plaguebearers)

Possessed and Warp Talons are daemons. Provided the alignments match up, you can have a herald join your unit of possessed.

While I doubt that passing SnP/Shrouded/FNP to a squad of Nurgle Possessed would be all that awesome, there you are.
Maybe if you inflitrated them using Huron as your warlord? While they are SnP, they are still Fleet. (riddle me that batman)

You could also run Khorne warp talons and stick 4 heralds on Juggernaughts in the squad. That would be a pretty frightening and fast moving beatstick unit.

It's not possible in any way. Possessed and Warp Talons aren't "Daemons of...", they have Marks which isn't the same.

Units with instability cant join units without it.

zamnath wrote:
Aegis Defense Lines are amazing with daemon armies now

That won't work. At least 25% of the model must be behind the ADL. The soul grinder is 4.5" tall, and the ADL is 1.5" tall, but the problem is the spidery legs are the only things behind the wall. The vast majority of the soul grinders body is visible, so it would not get the 2+ cover save.

Your right on the ADL being awesome for daemons though. Just throw that thing out in the middle of the board and use it for a 4+ cover save. Anything that draws a LoS over it (friend or foe) is getting the cover save.

The other thing is that bloodletters are 'on point' with that quad gun. Sporting a BS of 5, they can man those defenses like no marine ever could....

Chaospling wrote:
It's not possible in any way. Possessed and Warp Talons aren't "Daemons of...", they have Marks which isn't the same.

So how does a daemon prince of Khorne use the Axe of Blind Fury?
There is a precedent that marks indicate being of the same alignment.

skarsol wrote:
Units with instability cant join units without it.

Incorrect. Units without instability cannot join a unit with instability. Heralds are only limited by the text I provided above. If you found something else that indicates otherwise, please let me know.

Does the Soul Grinder benefit from a Nurgle alignment?

 labmouse42 wrote:
So how does a daemon prince of Khorne use the Axe of Blind Fury?
There is a precedent that marks indicate being of the same alignment.

CSM FAQ wrote:Page 69 – Axe of Blind Fury.
Change first rules sentence to ‘Models with the Mark of
Khorne, or Daemons of Khorne, only.’

It was FAQ'd to allow it to use it.

Ah, you're correct. So then they effectively lose the bad effects of it when they join a CSM unit since the unit doesn't have it andso it never triggers?

What time does itunes preorders download?

 skkipper wrote:
What time does itunes preorders download?

They'll probably go live at 7pm, since that's midnight in the UK.

yeah some of us are 37 minutes from midnite sadly. I don't want to wait. :(

Can the CSM daemons benefit from the CD icons for Deep Striking? Nurgle oblits, for instance, have the Daemon rule and are aligned, but they are not "daemons of Nurgle".

EDIT: strange doublepost.

 Sephyr wrote:

Can the CSM daemons benefit from the CD icons for Deep Striking? Nurgle oblits, for instance, have the Daemon rule and are aligned, but they are not "daemons of Nurgle".

"have the same daemonic alignment (both units are entirely composed of models with the same Daemon of Khorne, Tzeentzh, Nurgle, or Slaanesh special rule)"

GW has been good about FAQing their books.

Hopefully this one will be FAQed in the next day or so.

skarsol wrote:

 Sephyr wrote:

Can the CSM daemons benefit from the CD icons for Deep Striking? Nurgle oblits, for instance, have the Daemon rule and are aligned, but they are not "daemons of Nurgle".

"have the same daemonic alignment (both units are entirely composed of models with the same Daemon of Khorne, Tzeentzh, Nurgle, or Slaanesh special rule)"

They can still benefit from the reduced scatter, since it only requires the 'Daemon' special rule (and that they all have the same alignment).

Ah, you are correct.

Of course, placing a d6" scattering unit within 6" of another unit is asking for mishap.

Oh, assuming that a daemon with mark of nurgle counts as Daemon with the alignment of Nurgle.

Mutilators and Oblitators could have heralds join them.
Mutilators with FnP + shrouded might actually be halfway decent. That would make them extremely durable.