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Happyjew wrote:

Right you have permission to use Force. I wound a model with my Force Weapon. You decide to invoke the Force USR. You are then required to usea Warp Charge and take a Psychic Test. You do not have any Warp Charges. You cannot activate the Force property. If GW changes this that's all well and good, seeing as how I don't have any Force Weapons, nor do I play against any Necrons.

Players do not have warp charges, psyker models do. In order to activate the 'force' (weapon) ability, which the Necron player is forcing the psyker model to do, the psyker must expend a warp charge point and take a psychic test.

Models don't roll the dice, the player does, therefore it is impossible for the psyker to take a psychic test, therefore, Force is unusable.

Happyjew wrote:
Models don't roll the dice, the player does, therefore it is impossible for the psyker to take a psychic test, therefore, Force is unusable.

Agreed. In fact, a whole lot of the rules are written like that, so sadly we can't even play the game at all.

Well that solves that i guess, back to playing monopoly then?

On a related note: For the folk who say you can't activate a Force weapon with MSS. Has anyone explained why spending a Warp Charge needs to be a voluntary act on the part of the player who owns the mind-controlled psyker? it's entirely possible to lose warp charges as a result of a (non-owner controlled) ability after all. (see the Demon Bile entry on page 103 for an example)

 Neorealist wrote:
Well that solves that i guess, back to playing monopoly then?

On a related note: For the folk who say you can't activate a Force weapon with MSS. Has anyone explained why spending a Warp Charge needs to be a voluntary act on the part of the player who owns the mind-controlled psyker? it's entirely possible to lose warp charges as a result of a (non-owner controlled) ability after all. (see the Demon Bile entry on page 103 for an example)

Because Warp Charges are not an ability of the weapon, but an ability the Psyker himself has regardless if he has a force weapon or not.

And yet the rule for Force requires the owner of the weapon to expend a charge and take a Psychic test to activate the Special Rule.

Annnnd at this I'm dropping out. Neither side will change their mind until it gets FAQ'd.

DeathReaper wrote:Because Warp Charges are not an ability of the weapon, but an ability the Psyker himself has regardless if he has a force weapon or not.

Right, everyone agrees that the Warp Charges are not an intrinsic property of the weapon itself i should think and i do not believe anyone is saying otherwise.

However, that doesn't answer my question: What inherent property prevents the player of the mind-controlled psyker from being 'forced' (hehe) to spend a warp charge if available and roll a leadership check on behalf of his or her model should one of the models weapons' properties require it? (which the activation of the 'Force' property of the weapon does from what i can tell)

The fact that MSS can only use the ability of the weapon, and can not use Warp charges because warp charges are not an ability from the force weapon.

We should probably wait for an FAQ, but if they keep with what it was force will not be able to be used, but they change rules with FAQ's all the time so I will not be surprised if they let the MSS use the Force weapon to instagib someone. not that many psykers have Warp Charges come time to swing, Prescience is too good of an ability to leave uncast.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The fact that MSS can only use the ability of the weapon, and can not use Warp charges because warp charges are not an ability from the force weapon.

We should probably wait for an FAQ, but if they keep with what it was force will not be able to be used, but they change rules with FAQ's all the time so I will not be surprised if they let the MSS use the Force weapon to instagib someone. not that many psykers have Warp Charges come time to swing, Prescience is too good of an ability to leave uncast.

They activate Force.
Force expends a warp charge.
What is stopping the expenditure?

The Psyker has to expend the warp charge point.

The weapon has no Warp Charge points to use.

That is what is stopping the activation.

The Psyker can always choose not to expend a Warp Charge as Spending a Warp Charge is not an ability of the weapon it is an ability of the Psyker.

Basically :
"he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test..."

Replace the He with the MSS model, and if that model has a Warp Charge point then that model can use the Force ability. But you can not drain a Warp Charge from the Psyker.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Psyker has to expend the warp charge point.

The weapon has no Warp Charge points to use.

That is what is stopping the activation.

The Psyker can always choose not to expend a Warp Charge as Spending a Warp Charge is not an ability of the weapon it is an ability of the Psyker.

Basically :
"he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test..."

Replace the He with the MSS model, and if that model has a Warp Charge point then that model can use the Force ability. But you can not drain a Warp Charge from the Psyker.

Yup, sure does.
Nope, it sure doesnt.
If thats the logic your going to use, even you cant activate your own Force weapon.

To your edit, its not my model with the Force Special rule. Its yours. If your rule told you to do that, you would have to do that. In this instance, its the Necron player in your stead making your model do that, which requires a Warp Charge point, and a Psychic Test to activate. Again, its not our special rule, its yours. We have to abide by the rules outlined within that Special rule just as much as you have to.

Basically:
MSS gives us permission to your weapons rules.
Your weapons rules give you permission to use a Warp Charge point if you have it (which we have permission to use the Special rule that requires you to do this).
Its remained in the realm of permissive the whole time.

No, the weapon gives a Psyker with a Warp Charge permission to expend the Warp Charge.

"[The Psyker] can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point..." P.37

If the model with the MSS does not have a warp charge point to spend, he can not activate the Force Ability of the weapon.

MSS says "and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons"

Spending a Warp Charge point is not an ability of the weapon, it is the ability of the Psyker, since Weapons do not generate Warp Charges.

Xzerios wrote:
To your edit, its not my model with the Force Special rule. Its yours.

Actually My model does not have the force ability, but the weapon wielded by my model does.

My model isnt the one with the Force Special rule. Its yours good sir. Your model.

Xzerios wrote:
My model isnt the one with the Force Special rule. Its yours good sir. Your model.

Well since it his model that has the Force special rule, it would seem that you cannot use it, as you cannot use special rules of the model.

And MSS has given me permission to do so. Only his weapons Special Rules though. I cant make him cast a Psyker spell that could be cast in Close Combat as I have not been given permission to do so. I only have permission to use the model affected by MSS to attack D3 times, with any and all Special rules that the weapon confers to that model. The Special rule for Force is now tied to your weapon unlike in 5th. Since the rule for Force on your models weapon calls for you (and in this case, I) to expend a Warp Charge point, and take a Psychic test to activate it; We do so. If for whatever reason we are unable to expend a point on the account of the unit/model not having a Warp Charge point, you or I would be unable to activate the weapon. Thats the only limiting factor to the rule.

Force is tied to the weapon, but Warp Charges are not, and the ability to cast a Psychic Power is also not tied to the force weapon.

So, you cant use your own Force weapon with that logic. :|

Xzerios wrote:
So, you cant use your own Force weapon with that logic. :|

Sure you can, as the Force ability says a Psyker can activate the weapon.

"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he [The Psyker] can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)." (37)

Now in the case of the MSS, you can replace the word he [which means The Psyker wielding the weapon] with The model with the Mind Shackle Scarabs.

So it would look like this (The model with the Mind Shackle Scarabs can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67).)

You know if we are reading everything with a word by word interpretation, psykers and their controllers do not control the warp charge itself. It says they are expended not that the model nor controller chooses to pay a warp charge then a power, force weapon or artefact is activated. Consider it a debit account that is charged automatically not cash that you have to hand over first. You choose to do these things then the warp charge is expended not the other way around. You choose a power to use then you expend the WC and make the testl. You choose to activate Force ability and expend the WC and make the test. Under powers it is spelled out exactly as such. Under Force it is implied in the same sentence as failing the test, implying that you can activate it but not have the WC to expend and fail.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Xzerios wrote:So, you cant use your own Force weapon with that logic. :|

Sure you can, as the Force ability says a Psyker can activate the weapon.

"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he [The Psyker] can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)." (37)

Now in the case of the MSS, you can replace the word he [which means The Psyker wielding the weapon] with The model with the Mind Shackle Scarabs.

So it would look like this (The model with the Mind Shackle Scarabs can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67).)

You misread what MSS does. To save on time, Im just going to post the rule for you.

Page 81 Necron Codex, second paragraph for Mindshackle Scarabs replaced with 6th Edition FaQ wrote:
At the start of the Fight sub-phase, randomly select an enemy model in base contact with the bearer of the mindshackle scarabs. That model must immediately take a Leadership test on 3D6. If the test is passed, the mindshackle scarabs have no effect. If the test is failed, the victim strikes out at his allies. Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits on his own unit (or himself, if on his own or in a challenge) when it is his turn to attack. These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which weapon he uses, if there is a choice). If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control once all blows in that round of combat have been struck.

Again, its not my model that has the Force Special rule tied to its weapon. Its your model. Your model then must meet the prerequisites for its own Special rule, not mine. If your model has a warp charge point left, I can then force you to expend it per the rules for Force and then force you to take the Psychic test as the rules for Force require. Again, the model with MSS doesnt have to do this series of tests as the model doesnt even have the Force Special rule.

Your model.
Your Weapon.
Your Special rule.

Right "These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons"

Expending a warp charge is not an ability of the weapon, if it were then Inquisitors with nemesis force weapons, that were not psykers, could still activate them, which is not the case.

The hits benefit from the "Force" rule, as that is a ability of the weapon, but "expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)." is not an ability of the weapon, it requires a Psyker to do it, so that is not an ability of the weapon.

Casting the Psychic power to to make the model lose all unsaved wounds is not an ability of the weapon. (Force requires a Psychic test, P.67 tells us psychic tests are used to activate Psychic powers, the effects of the force weapon give the Psyker an additional Psychic power he can cast. Nothing has changed).

Your models weapon has the Special rule for Force. Read what it requires you to do to use it. Until you do, this discussion cannot continue good sir.

I have read what is required. (It is quite insulting that you are insinuating otherwise, as I have quoted the rule a few times now).

Expending a Warp Charge is not an ability of the weapon.

You are not given permission to use the Warp charge, as the Psyker is given a choice.

 DeathReaper wrote:
I have read what is required. (It is quite insulting that you are insinuating otherwise, as I have quoted the rule a few times now).

Expending a Warp Charge is not an ability of the weapon.

You are not given permission to use the Warp charge, as the Psyker is given a choice.

He's given a choice to activate it. The MSS allows that choice to be forced on him.
The activation requires the warp charge. Since he's forced to activate it, he's forced to spend the charge.

You can not force a Psyker to cast a Psychic power, you only use the "benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons"

Casting a Psychic power is not an "abilitiy from his Melee weapon"

DeathReaper wrote:I have read what is required. (It is quite insulting that you are insinuating otherwise, as I have quoted the rule a few times now).

Expending a Warp Charge is not an ability of the weapon.

You are not given permission to use the Warp charge, as the Psyker is given a choice.

No, the rule on the weapon calls for this. To not do that is breaking the rule for Force and the rule for MSS.

DeathReaper wrote:You can not force a Psyker to cast a Psychic power, you only use the "benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons"

Casting a Psychic power is not an "abilitiy from his Melee weapon"

I seem to be missing the part that states that Force is a 'Psychic Power'. Point that out to me please.

"...a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)." (37)

P.67 "Manifesting Psychic Powers"
"Expend Warp Charge" Section:
"When a Psyker wishes to use a psychic power, he must first expend a Warp Charge point."

Psychic test section: "If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved"

So passing a Psychic test makes the [psychic] power manifest successfully.

Force refers you to P.67 to resolve how to use the Force ability.

The ability of a Force Weapon is a Psychic power. as they refer you to how to cast a Psychic power when using a Force weapon.

Now that you have that portion here, let us read the rules for Force again. What does the rule give you (me in this case) permission to do?
Expend the point, then take the Psychic test.

Your own models Force weapon gives you permission to do that same action above. In the permissive rule set, we were just given permission to do that very action by your weapons own Special rule.

No it does not give you permission to cast the Psychic power, as the Weapon does not have the ability to do so.