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 DeathReaper wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
So any psyker can spend a Warp Charge to activate their weapon making it a force weapon? No. You activate the force weapon. The characteristic of the weapon lets you spend a warp charge.

Where under the Psyker rules does it say you can spend a warp charge to activate a force weapon?

The characteristic of the weapon lets the psyker spend a Warp Charge to activate their weapon.

I think your statement should really read, per the Force USR rule, "The Force USR, an ability of the weapon, requires the psyker to spend a Warp Charge and take a psychic test if they choose to activate their weapon."

 DeathReaper wrote:
Is spending a warp charge an ability of the weapon? (No, but the weapon does let a psyker spend a Warp Charge to activate the ability).

The weapon does not let a psyker spend the charge. The Force USR requires them to (if the psyker chooses to activate it).

 DeathReaper wrote:
Ergo Force only gives the psyker a choice.

The MSS rules says that the MSS controller can benefit from any ability the weapon has. Force is clearly an ability. Can you explain how the MSS controller can benefit from it?

-Yad

The same way a non-psyker benefits from the Force special rule.

Yad wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
So any psyker can spend a Warp Charge to activate their weapon making it a force weapon? No. You activate the force weapon. The characteristic of the weapon lets you spend a warp charge.

Where under the Psyker rules does it say you can spend a warp charge to activate a force weapon?

The characteristic of the weapon lets the psyker spend a Warp Charge to activate their weapon.

I think your statement should really read, per the Force USR rule, "The Force USR, an ability of the weapon, requires the psyker to spend a Warp Charge and take a psychic test if they choose to activate their weapon."

Not exactly. it does not "require the psyker to spend a Warp Charge and take a psychic test if they choose to activate their weapon"

The spent warp charge is how the psyker chooses to activate the weapon. "he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point..."

That is literally how the activation occurs, by the psyker "expending a Warp Charge point"

Nothing in the MSS rules makes the Psyker expend a Warp Charge point.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Is spending a warp charge an ability of the weapon? (No, but the weapon does let a psyker spend a Warp Charge to activate the ability).

The weapon does not let a psyker spend the charge. The Force USR requires them to (if the psyker chooses to activate it).

-Yad

Yad wrote: The weapon does not let a psyker spend the charge. The Force USR requires them to (if the psyker chooses to activate it).

Thats not how the rule reads though. Its worded that upon the first Unsaved Wound, the Psyker can immediately choose to spend a Warp Charge point and take a psychic test.
'Choose' and 'Force' both carry different meanings within the English language.

Xzerios wrote:
Thats not how the rule reads though. Its worded that upon the first Unsaved Wound, the Psyker can immediately choose to spend a Warp Charge point and take a psychic test.
'Choose' and 'Force' both carry different meanings within the English language.

The underlined only applies to Nemesis Force Weapons (unless the GK FAQ changed it, not sure). With regular Force weapons, it's "If the psyker inflicts one or more unsaved wounds..."

"he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)."
The colored section is also what MSS does not give the Necron player power over. That choice, lies outside what they can choose and page eight mandates that even if this choice is envoked, the owner of the model gets to choose.

Snakel - when someones first post in ages claims you havent bothered to read the rules, despite quoting them, then they manage to get the wrong rule, that is disrespectful to all posters in this thread who have bothered to pay attention.

The anti side havent got a "good point", they have a lot of handwaving about not needing explicit permission because, well, for no actual rules based reason that has been shown.

Well that, and believing that getting to use any ability of a weapon give you the right to choose to activate a force weapon, which in turn 'forces' the psyker to pay the warp charge and take a leadership check as per the Force USR. You know, that sort of thing. I'm a bit hurt that you don't think the Pro-MSS side has brought forth any rules-specific information in our arguments.

Because the rules for Force dont actually say that.

The psyker chooses to activate, it is not a property of the weapon so is not something the MSS player can choose to do. The psyker activates by choosing to spend a warp charge. Which is not a property of the weapon, so is not something the MSS player can choose to do

Be hurt if you want, but you have yet to provide the permission required to override the Controlling Player rules which state it is the Psyker that gets to choose.

That is whats meant by not providing any rules.

You do get to use any ability of the weapon.

Expending a Warp Charge point to activate the weapon, sadly, is not an ability of the weapon, it is an ability granted to the psyker by the weapon, and not an ability of the weapon itself.

You have no permission to use the psykers ability to expend warp charge points.

Force is an ability of the weapon, one that allows a psyker to activate the force weapon by expending a Warp Charge point.

Expending a Warp Charge point is not an ability of the weapon, so MSS can never activate a Force weapon.

You have not cited any rules that say you are allowed to use the abilities of the psyker, so unless you can find some, you can not use the psykers ability to expend a warp charge point.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Because the rules for Force dont actually say that.

The psyker chooses to activate, it is not a property of the weapon so is not something the MSS player can choose to do. The psyker activates by choosing to spend a warp charge. Which is not a property of the weapon, so is not something the MSS player can choose to do

Be hurt if you want, but you have yet to provide the permission required to override the Controlling Player rules which state it is the Psyker that gets to choose.

That is whats meant by not providing any rules.

I agree. The pro-side is making their case made of assumptions. They assume that the "benefit" will force the psyker to activate. To override something stated in the BRB it must be specifically pointed out in the rules.
As I have said before, if something would be able to let you shoot at any target, a ranged weapon for an example it must follow the rules for LoS, range and so on if not specifically stated in the rules that they override a rule in the BRB

Neorealist wrote:Well that, and believing that getting to use any ability of a weapon give you the right to choose to activate a force weapon, which in turn 'forces' the psyker to pay the warp charge and take a leadership check as per the Force USR. You know, that sort of thing. I'm a bit hurt that you don't think the Pro-MSS side has brought forth any rules-specific information in our arguments.

Xzerios wrote:

Yad wrote: The weapon does not let a psyker spend the charge. The Force USR requires them to (if the psyker chooses to activate it).

Thats not how the rule reads though. Its worded that upon the first Unsaved Wound, the Psyker can immediately choose to spend a Warp Charge point and take a psychic test.
'Choose' and 'Force' both carry different meanings within the English language.

Second edit: I noticed this on the post. The way this rule reads out in that terminology is it requires a choice to be made.

nosferatu wrote:Be hurt if you want, but you have yet to provide the permission required to override the Controlling Player rules which state it is the Psyker that gets to choose.

My particular theory regarding this is that the psyker's controlling player 'has' to choose to activate the force weapon in order for the MSSs' controlling player to be considered to have access to any of the benefits and penalties of the weapon. (specifically, the 'instant death' benefit).

Except you do not have permission to override the Controlling Players abiltiy to make the choice, not you.

If a non psyker wields a Force weapon you still benefit from Force, as the rule is still present on the Weapon. The fact you cannot cause Instant Death does not alter this.

RAW, this is a fundamental breakdown of how this process works

MSS kick in, Necron player gains control of the outlined objects that the model has.

An Unsaved Wound occurs, caused by this model controlled by MSS.

MSS chooses to use Force.

Force now calls for a second choice for the Psyker to either expend/test, or not. He cannot not spend and then test as the rules in Force prevent him from doing so.

Since this choice was invoked by Force, page eights Controlling Player Vs Opposing Player states that the owner of the model is the one who makes the choice. Since MSS doesnt state that it either makes it the owner of the model for these choices specifically, or give it the option to make choices within Special rules (both of which would trump this rule by page seven) the rule from page eight stands.

Controlling player now choices. Either yes and follows the rest of the rules to activate the weapon; or no, and the rules for Force end.

Allocate Unsaved Wounds per page 25 and continue with the Fight Sub-phase to its conclusion.

 Neorealist wrote:

nosferatu wrote:Be hurt if you want, but you have yet to provide the permission required to override the Controlling Player rules which state it is the Psyker that gets to choose.

My particular theory regarding this is that the psyker's controlling player 'has' to choose to activate the force weapon in order for the MSSs' controlling player to be considered to have access to any of the benefits and penalties of the weapon. (specifically, the 'instant death' benefit).

You assume that it is working that way, but text in the rule that specifically says what you are saying is nowhere to be found. Feel free to speculate if you believe that this is the way GW is gonna change it, but do not claim cheesy rule interpretations from something that is based on assumptions.

Stoff3 wrote:You assume that it is working that way, but text in the rule that specifically says what you are saying is nowhere to be found. Feel free to speculate if you believe that this is the way GW is gonna change it, but do not claim cheesy rule interpretations from something that is based on assumptions.

I'm going by a plain-english definition of the word 'any' here, i don't believe there is a specific rule attached to the word.

 Neorealist wrote:

Stoff3 wrote:You assume that it is working that way, but text in the rule that specifically says what you are saying is nowhere to be found. Feel free to speculate if you believe that this is the way GW is gonna change it, but do not claim cheesy rule interpretations from something that is based on assumptions.

I'm going by a plain-english definition of the word 'any' here, i don't believe there is a specific rule attached to the word.

So if you for an example can shoot at any target, then all rules for LoS, range, movement vs heavy weapon don't apply anymore? I would believe that, just as they have done for the shooting attacks that ignore some of the basic rules in the brb, would be clear what kinds of overrides to the basic rule that the rule in question does.

 Neorealist wrote:

Stoff3 wrote:You assume that it is working that way, but text in the rule that specifically says what you are saying is nowhere to be found. Feel free to speculate if you believe that this is the way GW is gonna change it, but do not claim cheesy rule interpretations from something that is based on assumptions.

I'm going by a plain-english definition of the word 'any' here, i don't believe there is a specific rule attached to the word.

So an allowance to shoot at "any" target ignores los, range, whether the weapon is one shot and has already been used, etc?

Or does it only lift the restrictions explicitly mentioned?

I wasn't talking about shooting, and would thank the both of you to remember that we are discussing MSSs' effects; not rules abiguities with regard to shooting something and/or it's interaction with the word 'any'

Regarding the weapon properties itself, yes i believe 'any' refers to all of them, not just a specific sub-set of them as you've been indicating.

 Neorealist wrote:
I wasn't talking about shooting, and would thank the both of you to remember that we are discussing MSSs' effects; not rules abiguities with regard to shooting something and/or it's interaction with the word 'any'

Regarding the weapon properties itself, yes i believe 'any' refers to all of them, not just a specific sub-set of them as you've been indicating.

Examples that clearify the rules don't have to be about MSS. And if "any" isn't having the same meaning in other examples how can you stay with your interpretation? You are linking the wording "any" to your interpretation, but for it to be correct we have to be able to use it in other situations too with the same interpretation.

The MSS ARE benefiting from all abilities.

the MSS gives the psyker the choice to activate, just like when the psyker hits and wounds.

DeathReaper wrote:The MSS ARE benefiting from all abilities.

the MSS gives the psyker the choice to activate, just like when the psyker hits and wounds.

isn't being able to instant-death something 'also' an ability of force weapons?

isn't being able to instant-death something 'also' an ability of force weapons?

Only if you are a psyker choosing to expend the warp charge to activate it as the ability requires. Otherwise no.

Schrödinger's Force USR: Collapses the wave-function on wether or not it contains the 'instant death' benefit only if the choice is made to activate it.

Yes, same as any other conditional ability. If you dont meet the conditions you dont get all the benefits.

Our example of the use of the word "any" as applied to other situaitons shows your position is unsound - you cannot apply your reasoning uniformly, indicating an error in your logic.

 Neorealist wrote:
Schrödinger's Force USR: Collapses the wave-function on wether or not it contains the 'instant death' benefit only if the choice is made to activate it.

if they wanted Force to instant ID, they would have just bypassed making this rule and just given the damn weapons the ID USR. :|

umm... okay...

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes, same as any other conditional ability. If you dont meet the conditions you dont get all the benefits.

Our example of the use of the word "any" as applied to other situaitons shows your position is unsound - you cannot apply your reasoning uniformly, indicating an error in your logic.

Just because some randomly half-quoted rule says a model can fire at any target, and this cannot be inferred to mean that you'd therefore ignore every shooting rule in the game means my use the words 'any benefits' as equivelent to 'all benefits' is somehow invalid? Can explain the logic behind that? as it seems like a rather counter-intuitive stretch to me.

I met your off tangent with one of my own. Now get back on topic, MSS doesnt affect the shooting phase.

 Neorealist wrote:
umm... okay...

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes, same as any other conditional ability. If you dont meet the conditions you dont get all the benefits.

Our example of the use of the word "any" as applied to other situaitons shows your position is unsound - you cannot apply your reasoning uniformly, indicating an error in your logic.

Just because some randomly half-quoted rule says a model can fire at any target, and this cannot be inferred to mean that you'd therefore ignore every shooting rule in the game means my use the words 'any benefits' as equivelent to 'all benefits' is somehow invalid? Can explain the logic behind that? as it seems like a rather counter-intuitive stretch to me.

We are making the example because you obviously don't get that you are not able to overrule the BRB rules unless specifically stated. Now as people have been trying to tell you numerous times here the rules for MSS are quite clear in this department. They are not specifically stating that you can make choices or that you are in full control of the model, and because of that you do not meet the requirements to activate force, since it is not your choice according to the BRB. You can't, as I have told you many times already, assume that is does override the BRB rules, unless you have clear proof in the rule. Just as you can't override the BRB rules for shooting, even if able to shoot at any target, unless otherwise stated!

Your picture of the wording "any" isn't applyable to other examples and therefore it is not logical.