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2012/08/20 06:17:50
Subject: Re:Republicans talk about "Legitimate rape"
http://www.mrc.ac.za/mrcnews/july2005/mom.htm Research has already demonstrated that psychosocial stress - stress related to one's psychological state and social environment - may significantly affect not only the mother's wellbeing, but also the physical development of the child she is carrying.
I have some disagreement with relying on the stress of being raped to cause a miscarriage, which is not a 100% guarantee. If this is what the politician's solution is, it is a flawed one in the extreme.
So in order for what the senator said to be utterly stupid we need a translation of legitimate rape that sounds stupid, which is unlikely as every Senator (and I would suggest almost everyone else) would know that rape is a crime and can never be formally legitimate in the US.
Or evidence that rape is unlikely to cause stress or anxiety in women.
It is known that some people are a little more heartless than others in their definitions of rape. In addition, the Senator's definition is probably not based on the law but on his perception of rape.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/20 06:20:58
2012/08/20 06:24:54
Subject: Re:Republicans talk about "Legitimate rape"
AegisGrimm wrote:I agree. Does he seriously think the a woman's body will react to a rapists sperm like some kind of immune response and destroy the potential fetus? He's a high school grad, right? Because that's the stupidest thing I have ever heard.
Sometimes High school education doesn't actually mean very much. Example.
And when Akin says "legitimate rape", I'm willing to bet he means one or more of the following:
-when she wasn't asking for it -when she wasn't dressed like she wanted it -when she wasn't married to her attacker -when she wasn't on a date first -when she wasn't a slut -when she wasn't a prostitute -when she wasn't subconsciously enjoying it -when she wasn't just making it up
How about:
And when Akin says "legitimate rape", I'm willing to bet he means the following: - when sexual intercourse actually is rape.
We all get tongue twisters.
Take these two statements:
1. "First of all, from what I understand from doctors, that's* really rare, If it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down"
2. "First of all, from what I understand from doctors, that's* really rare, If someone really is raped, the female body has ways to try to stop pregnancy."
*pregnancy resulting from rape from context.
Are we even sure that isnt true? Can the mental state of the mother, or a desire to conceive or a lack of desire to conceive actually effect the chances of conception or the chances of miscarriage
Dear Orlanth;
Women are not Bene Gesserit witches
sincerely, ~Science
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/08/20 06:27:16
Melissia wrote: Orlanth apparently has never heard of Occam's Razor.
Funnily enough I didn't see that until after I wrote my post.
Occams Razor suggest the word 'legitimate' in reference to rape is simply a mispoken word, just as the Senator says it is. Because assuming a Senator manages to have a political career yet is unaware that rape is an illegitimate act is horribly unlikely.
Occams Razor also suggests that if he said 'First of all, from what I understand from doctors', marries up nicely to what some websites says happens medically then the simples explanation is that he garbled a sentence through the unfortunate choice of a single word.
Perhaps I can wield Occams Razor to suggest that those who oppose the Republicans will want to misrepresent what they say for political gain. Its simple to believing that morons who do not undertsrtand rape is illigitimate actually managing to get selected to stand then elected Senator.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2012/08/20 06:30:14
Subject: Re:Republicans talk about "Legitimate rape"
He is a fething Senator, it must be fairly difficult to be that stupid and get that far. Occams razor suggests that the simplest answer is that as the Senator said, he mispoke, he garbled a sentence, nothing more.
Or you could do 2 minutes of research, instead of spending that time typing out speculation, and find his clarification. Which pretty much shows that he was using "legitimate rape" as a means of hand waving the issue in order to focus on denying access to abortion.
I recognize that abortion, and particularly in the case of rape, is a very emotionally charged issue. But I believe deeply in the protection of all life and I do not believe that harming another innocent victim is the right course of action.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2012/08/20 06:30:30
Subject: Idiot Poltician (R, MO) talks about "Legitimate rape"
Orlanth, stress may cause miscarriage, but miscarriage requires a pregnancy in the first place; ergo that is not a proper defense of that man's misguided beliefs-- or quite possibly just plain lies in order to reinforce his political position, but Hanlon's razor leads me to believe in incompetence instead.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
0002/08/20 06:37:03
Subject: Re:Republicans talk about "Legitimate rape"
I have some disagreement with relying on the stress of being raped to cause a miscarriage, which is not a 100% guarantee. If this is what the politician's solution is, it is a flawed one in the extreme.
Senator Akin seems to agree with you here. If I read him right he thinks the womans biology will try to shut down the pregnancy, a 100% guarantee is something he does not claim.
Its ambiguous, and even the article claims such. I think there is room to suggest he was misreported misheard or garbled his words.
No, not really. That little "video" tab in Google is your friend here.
Thankyou for that. So he want misheard, and he wasn't misreported by the interviewer - but may well be misreported here by those who assume a literal application of the word legitimate.
Its very plain from context senator Akin meant "in cases where it is legitimate to say rape caused the pregnancy".
There isn't actually a fair story here, he mispoke a single word.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/20 07:20:11
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2012/08/20 06:41:22
Subject: Idiot Poltician (R, MO) talks about "Legitimate rape"
Occams Razor also suggests that if he said 'First of all, from what I understand from doctors', marries up nicely to what some websites says happens medically then the simples explanation is that he garbled a sentence through the unfortunate choice of a single word.
Except it doesn't. The sources you cited indicate that psychological duress can impact the state of a fetus in an already pregnant woman, not prevent the woman from becoming pregnant.
Considering that the rate of pregnancy following from rape, in the US, is ~5%, (and ~15-20% in developing nations) and the natural rate of pregnancy (again, in the US) is ~7%, it seems unlikely that there is any natural response that makes it less likely for a woman to become pregnant if she is raped. Especially given that IVF, AI, and general fertility treatments are likely to account for the 2% discrepancy.
This took me 20 minutes to research, and I'm not on Akin's staff. Either his staff is incompetent, or he was looking to dodge an issue, and did so in a particularly inept way.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2012/08/20 06:49:20
Subject: Idiot Poltician (R, MO) talks about "Legitimate rape"
Personally I prefer the interpretation of incompetence in dodging, myself.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/20 06:49:52
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2012/08/20 06:50:40
Subject: Re:Republicans talk about "Legitimate rape"
AegisGrimm wrote:I agree. Does he seriously think the a woman's body will react to a rapists sperm like some kind of immune response and destroy the potential fetus? He's a high school grad, right? Because that's the stupidest thing I have ever heard.
Sometimes High school education doesn't actually mean very much. Example.
And when Akin says "legitimate rape", I'm willing to bet he means one or more of the following:
-when she wasn't asking for it
-when she wasn't dressed like she wanted it
-when she wasn't married to her attacker
-when she wasn't on a date first
-when she wasn't a slut
-when she wasn't a prostitute
-when she wasn't subconsciously enjoying it
-when she wasn't just making it up
How about:
And when Akin says "legitimate rape", I'm willing to bet he means the following:
- when sexual intercourse actually is rape.
We all get tongue twisters.
Take these two statements:
1. "First of all, from what I understand from doctors, that's* really rare, If it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down"
2. "First of all, from what I understand from doctors, that's* really rare, If someone really is raped, the female body has ways to try to stop pregnancy."
*pregnancy resulting from rape from context.
Are we even sure that isnt true? Can the mental state of the mother, or a desire to conceive or a lack of desire to conceive actually effect the chances of conception or the chances of miscarriage
Dear Orlanth;
Women are not Bene Gesserit witches
sincerely,
~Science
If they were, the wyrding way would probably stop the whole rape issue flat out.. At least from what I remember of Dune.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
No. Even so you tell me how someone gets elected to a very high office without knowing that rape is always illegitimate?
Senator Akin seems to agree with you here. If I read him right he thinks the womans biology will try to shut down the pregnancy, a 100% guarantee is something he does not claim.
There isn't actually a fair story here, he mispoke a single word.
I ask that question a lot.
Which would beg the question, what separates the life inside of a woman who had a miscarriage and the life inside of a woman who had an abortion.
I doubt the man did any real research. He had an agenda, after all. I doubt research would have mattered.
How is any of this up for debate?
2012/08/20 07:01:05
Subject: Re:Idiot Poltician (R, MO) talks about "Legitimate rape"
He is a fething Senator, it must be fairly difficult to be that stupid and get that far. Occams razor suggests that the simplest answer is that as the Senator said, he mispoke, he garbled a sentence, nothing more.
Or you could do 2 minutes of research, instead of spending that time typing out speculation, and find his [url=http://www.akin.org/updates/akin-statement-jaco-report-interview?
Already ahead of you by working out what he was saying rather than crying LOLWUT.
That isn't a clarification of how he mispoke. It doesn't say what he meant be 'legitimate rape' but it can only logically mean 'pregnancy from intercourse legitimately classed as rape'.
As for the intent that was clear enough first time around in the video you kindly posted.
0:05 to 0:09 - asked directly about whether abortion is acceptable in rape cases
0:31 to 0:37 - gives strong indication the unborn child should not be 'punished' for the rape.
I recognize that abortion, and particularly in the case of rape, is a very emotionally charged issue. But I believe deeply in the protection of all life and I do not believe that harming another innocent victim is the right course of action.
Which pretty much shows that he was using "legitimate rape" as a means of hand waving the issue in order to focus on denying access to abortion.
- I cannot share this conclusion, in fact its a little loaded. You can say Akin recommends that the foetus is not killed to account for the crime of rape but the rapist is punished instead. This is an encouragement for women who are raped to keep the child, but is not a direct denial of access to abortion. Any but the most rabid pro-choicer will understand that Akin is entitled to make a moral suggestion as to what a pregnancy rape victim ought to do. he need not be forced into silence for having an opinion while in possession of a Y chromosome.
- I see no evidence to suggest whether Akin actually would ban abortion for rape victims, at the point he goes that far he crosses the line. Moral suggestion is fine, it was his stated answer, he made no promise of legislation and it would be unfair therefore to assume he is planning such without further evidence to back that up.
- I can't call it 'hand waving' as the issue is addressed directly. It acknowledged that rape exists, it causes unexpected pregnancy and sometimes those pregnancies can come to full term. It shows an understanding of the issue and sympathy for the women involved. Whether individuals endorse his message that women should consider the life of the foetus first and not abort is separate in that one can endorse that decision or reject it and still consider the question raised by the interviewer as having been addressed properly, not evaded.
There isn't actually a fair story here, he mispoke a single word.
I suspect you wouldn't be nearly so forgiving if this had been a politician that you were not sympathetic towards.
I hadn't heard of Akin before today. I have no opinion on him. In fact the only US politician I have a personal opinion on is Obama, who I will state for the record is a fething disaster. I find Romney a 'disappointing' opponent, but have no real comment on his policies.
I wasnt being forgiving I was merelty giving the 'scandal' more analysis than most people tried. I do not see an issue here in what he said. Akin answered a direct question on abortion, he didn't try to avoid the subject though it is a dangerous question with polarised points of view. He placed his own point of view firmly accross in a non offensive manner showing sympathy for women and went no further than to suggest hat women choose to keep a child conceived of rape.
For the record I dont even agree with that. In my opinion rape is good immediate grounds for termination regardless of the health of the foetus or religious preferences so long as the decision to abort is taken within the legal time limit for abortion.
I was disgusted when news broke of IIRC a sixteen year old from the Republic of Ireland was denied abortion on religious grounds after having conceived due to rape. I was content to learn she fled the country to have an abortion elsewhere.
So in fact I DONT agree with him, I am just analysing what Akin said with a fairness that has so far been denied him on this thread.
Occams Razor also suggests that if he said 'First of all, from what I understand from doctors', marries up nicely to what some websites says happens medically then the simples explanation is that he garbled a sentence through the unfortunate choice of a single word.
Except it doesn't. The sources you cited indicate that psychological duress can impact the state of a fetus in an already pregnant woman, not prevent the woman from becoming pregnant.
Senator Akin said "the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down".
He did not clarfy how or when, only that doctors told him the body tries to achieve this.
There is no certainty and Akin gave no specific methodology of how a pregnancy is stopped only that it could occur due to a natural process. This is why I translated his comment as such. as below:
"First of all, from what I understand from doctors, that's really rare, If someone really is raped, the female body has ways to try to stop pregnancy."
'Impacted state of foetus' leading to miscarriage is a pregnancy stopped, yes?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/20 07:17:13
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2012/08/20 07:20:53
Subject: Re:Idiot Poltician (R, MO) talks about "Legitimate rape"
OK, we get it. You are sure his he misspoke and it's no big. So maybe now we can talk about what he unambiguously believes, as per his clarification: that American women who are raped should be forced to carry their rapists's child to term; and that's his vision for America.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
djones520 wrote: Oh that is a load of crap. Republicans are not attacking women
Yes they are, all the goddamend time. For example, quite a damned few Republicans, even ones on this very forum, argued that effectively "You're a slut if you use birth control!" Even if you're using it for medical reasons to control your menstrual cycle.
The first question would be, why are you getting worked up over an idiot making an obviously contradictory statement? Secondly, who has said that and has anything they said ever had merit to it? If not, why care?
Melissia wrote:Or for that matter, nevermind the stereotypical "welfare mother" that Republicans love ranting about, because oh no, how DARE someone who takes three jobs while trying to raise four kids accept some government help. Or the constant attack by Republican evangelists on any woman who works for a living, bashing them for not staying at home watching the kids-- how DARE a man do that. Or the fact that almost all of these attacks are combined with claims of sexual promiscuity and personal insults.
Evangelists are known nutcases, why do you care what they think? If you think the 'stereotypical welfare mother' doesn't exist, you're in denial. There are far too many (of course anything over 0 is too many) mothers who don't work, are not married/in a committed relationship, or do not have a SO collecting a paycheck, so naturally they are on welfare. I've had minority coworkers bitch about that because it makes all poor unwed mothers look bad, when its only really applicable to a few.
Here's the real question, if you're not in a financially stable situation, why would you even getting pregnant? And once you have the first child, why would you continue to have more when you're on minimum wage? Sure, they should be commended for working hard, making ends meet, and dealing with their mistakes, but the thought process that led to those mistakes needs to be rectified.
Unless you're a fething idiot you should know having sex, even protected sex, brings the risk of pregnancy and STDs. Unless you are willing and capable of dealing with those situations, you should probably not have sex. Making the argument that people don't have the self control to not have sex is foolish. If we can't expect people to control their base desires, why should we expect rape, violence, verbal abuse, etc to not occur? Humans are animals, but we have minds. Use your fething head.
Melissia wrote:Protestors at clinics screaming synonyms of "slut" and "prostitute" (many of which would be censored here) at any woman who enters (Even if they're going for reasons completely unrelated to abortion) is a long time standard of the movement.
Yes, there are nutters in the movement. This isn't news.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/20 11:39:35
Melissia wrote: Personally I prefer the interpretation of incompetence in dodging, myself.
Which could be a ephemism for honesty.
he may appear bad at dodging difficult questions because he was choosing not to dodge difficult questions.
Just because his an 'R' from 'MO' doesn't mean he is incapable of answering a question honestly.
....The Arrs from Moe, out to persecute Melissia.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2012/08/20 07:25:27
Subject: Re:Idiot Poltician (R, MO) talks about "Legitimate rape"
Already ahead of you by working out what he was saying rather than crying LOLWUT.
See, this is what you don't seem to understand. I know what he was saying. He was differentiating between rape that is real, and "rape" that is not. This in itself is a contentious issue, with thousands of pages of academic, journalistic, and personal debate surrounding it. For many people it is a "LOLWUT" issue, because it plants Akin quite firmly in the noninclusive camp.
I in no way, ever, thought he was claiming that there are legitimate forms of rape, but that doesn't make what he said any less stupid. He would have been better served by stating, simply, that he did not believe the suffering of the mother should be passed on to the child; which is essentially what his clarification amounted to.
- I cannot share this conclusion, in fact its a little loaded.
Of course it is, its a conclusion based upon limited information. It has to be loaded. I would think you would be comfortable with loaded conclusions, seeing as that's basically your shtick.
You can say Akin recommends that the foetus is not killed to account for the crime of rape but the rapist is punished instead. This is an encouragement for women who are raped to keep the child, but is not a direct denial of access to abortion. Any but the most rabid pro-choicer will understand that Akin is entitled to make a moral suggestion as to what a pregnancy rape victim ought to do. he need not be forced into silence for having an opinion while in possession of a Y chromosome.
He's running on a pro-life platform in Missouri, which already has extremely restrictive laws regarding birth control and abortion.
And shut up about being forced into silence. He's having his, very public, opinion mocked by people that disagree. If you say something, in that position, then you should expect dissent. It is funny, however, that you would become terribly upset that someone is being mocked while having a history of "PC dogma" complaints.
Melissia wrote:Protestors at clinics screaming synonyms of "slut" and "prostitute" (many of which would be censored here) at any woman who enters (Even if they're going for reasons completely unrelated to abortion) is a long time standard of the movement.
Yes, there are nutters in the movement. This isn't news. There are also Muslims who like to crash planes into buildings, strap bombs onto their chests and kill civilians, etc. Stereotypes work both ways. If you're going to stereotype the entire Republican party as a bunch of Bible thumping, gun loving, hypocritical, anti abortion donkey-caves, you should expect to be stereotyped and insulted back as an uneducated, lazy, minority prostitute that is good for nothing but sucking on the government's teat and lives for vengeance against whitey. Instead of spewing vitriol perhaps you should look for solution or better yet control your anger and mouth if you can't bring any positive elements to a discussion.
Someone hasn't had their coffee this morning.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/20 07:28:10
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
Already ahead of you by working out what he was saying rather than crying LOLWUT.
See, this is what you don't seem to understand. I know what he was saying. He was differentiating between rape that is real, and "rape" that is not. This in itself is a contentious issue, with thousands of pages of academic, journalistic, and personal debate surrounding it. For many people it is a "LOLWUT" issue, because it plants Akin quite firmly in the noninclusive camp.
Citation please.
'Legitimate rape' can be most simply defined as differentiating between causes of pregnancy that can be legitimately classified as rape and those that cannot.
its an unfortunately choice of phrase as it opens opportunities for you to assume stuff that isnt there such as 'legitimate rape'.
Just ignore that, is was a mispoken word because he was in TV and nervous and answering dangerous questions. Its not uncommon this sort of thing happens. Normally over here when a politician mispeaks in the house the opposition and the guys own backbenchers howl for a few seconds but then he/she lives it down. I think there is something to learn from this. Senator Akin shouldn't be raked over the coals for an errant word.
There is no need to go differentiating between rape that is real and rape that is not. The simplest explanation is that Akin meant 'actual rape', 'actually when raped', 'in the real event of rape'. However you want to phrase it without having to invent up a category of 'fake rape' or 'rape that is not' and assume the Senator thinks it exists and can make policy on it on the strength of one errant word.
Give the man that much of a break.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2012/08/20 07:36:18
Subject: Re:Idiot Poltician (R, MO) talks about "Legitimate rape"
- I see no evidence to suggest whether Akin actually would ban abortion for rape victims, at the point he goes that far he crosses the line.
This is, unfortunately, where you cross the rubicon from "reasonable dude in a discussion" to "culture war foot soldier" in my book. From his clarification
"I recognize that abortion, and particularly in the case of rape, is a very emotionally charged issue. But I believe deeply in the protection of all life and I do not believe that harming another innocent victim is the right course of action.
This was, like, the second google result from searching for "Akin abortion ban":
HOST: I wanted to get to the actual morning-after pill. So are you saying that you would like that to be banned for everyone, or do you have exceptions for rape and incest?
AKIN: As far as I’m concerned, the morning-after pill is a form of abortion, and I think we shouldn’t have abortion in this country. [...] The life of the mother, the situation there is one where what you want to do is optimize life, you try to save the mother’s life, you try to save the child. [...]
HOST: Just to be clear, though, you would like to ban the morning after pill totally for everyone?
AKIN: Yeah. I think that is a form of abortion and I don’t support it.
Emphasis mine. Those are his plain, unambiguous words he presented in an unrushed fashion. By all means, spin away. I understand you want to believe, so go to it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/20 07:40:19
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2012/08/20 07:43:30
Subject: Re:Idiot Poltician (R, MO) talks about "Legitimate rape"
- I see no evidence to suggest whether Akin actually would ban abortion for rape victims, at the point he goes that far he crosses the line.
This is, unfortunately, where you cross the rubicon from "reasonable dude in a discussion" to "culture war foot soldier" in my book. From his clarification
"I recognize that abortion, and particularly in the case of rape, is a very emotionally charged issue. But I believe deeply in the protection of all life and I do not believe that harming another innocent victim is the right course of action.
Those are his plain, unambiguous words he presented in an unrushed fashion. By all means, spin away. I understand you want to believe, so go to it.
How are you getting he wants to ban abortion for rape victims out of that? All he said was that he believes it is not "the right course of action." I agree and disagree with him. I don't think abortion is usually a good idea, there are better ways of dealing with pregnancy, adoption for instance (depending on your ethnicity sadly...>.<, or better yet don't get pregnant in the first place. Rape victims are stuck with raising the child, having an abortion, or putting it up for adoption. I don't know how it would effect someone if they learned that they were both adopted and the product of rape. I wish our society was past the point where our origins matter, but we're not and I could see how that would be emotionally devastating.
There really is no good choice for dealing with it and the worst part is that its not the victims fault at all. The rape alone is severely traumatic, but having to deal with pregnancy as a result of it as well is just maddeningly horrific.
"First of all, from what I understand from doctors, that's really rare, If someone really is raped, the female body has ways to try to stop pregnancy."
'Impacted state of foetus' leading to miscarriage is a pregnancy stopped, yes?
When he said "...that's really rare..." he was referring to pregnancy as a result of rape. Because the question asked was regarding pregnancy as a result of rape.
Again, you talk about context all the time, but you're ignoring it now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/20 07:46:46
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2012/08/20 07:49:21
Subject: Re:Idiot Poltician (R, MO) talks about "Legitimate rape"
"First of all, from what I understand from doctors, that's really rare, If someone really is raped, the female body has ways to try to stop pregnancy."
'Impacted state of foetus' leading to miscarriage is a pregnancy stopped, yes?
When he said "...that's really rare..." he was referring to pregnancy as a result of rape. Because the question asked was regarding pregnancy as a result of rape.
Again, you talk about context all the time, but you're ignoring it now.
Context still in place. Perhaps you just dont like what reading his comments in context tells you.
It indicates no plans to ban abortion for rape victims, denying you a legitimate excuse to get angry at his policies.
Maybe you wont be happy until Akin says. "I am a raving sexist fundamentalist bigot who wants to ban all abortion for rape victims. Make them interrupt their lives to raise the kids of violent criminals for 18 years."
Akin is not a Senator, he is runnng for Senate. At the moment he is a Congressman.
Good job though, you have proven that you're talking out your ass.
Picky, picky.
Took you (and everyone else reading my posts) a while to work out he wasn't a Senator, been calling him that for the last x pages so you didn't realise either. At least I have an excuse in that it doesn't make a blindest bit of difference whether what actual office title he holds for someone outside the country. He is an elected senior politician for Missouri. I cannot immediately point out Missouri on a map either, knowing which country Missouri is in is enough for me. If I need to know I will find out.
If I met the guy and called him by the wrong title I would feel suitably embarrassed. Outside of that I couldn't care if his actual official title was Senator, Congressman or Warmaster of Chaos. Who cares outside the US, the fact he is a senior US elected official is what's relevant, it ought to change nothing but.....
Hey look, I mispoke a word. Have no mercy, rah, rah.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/20 08:01:19
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2012/08/20 07:59:24
Subject: Re:Idiot Poltician (R, MO) talks about "Legitimate rape"
Really? You're that lazy, and that ignorant? There have been extensive debates on this forum regarding the nature of rape. A forum about little plastic men. Just peruse this. There are more, but its Google Scholar, which is awful.
'Legitimate rape' can be most simply defined as differentiating between causes of pregnancy that can be legitimately classified as rape and those that cannot.
Which is what I said regarding my interpretation of the statement, and why I brought up the debate regarding the nature of rape.
Just ignore that, is was a mispoken word because he was in TV and nervous and answering dangerous questions.
No, he does this for a living. He's a politician, speaking in interviews is part of the job description. I'll tolerate a gaffe here and there, but his platform is consistent with what he said, and his clarification was as well.
The simplest explanation is that Akin meant 'actual rape', 'actually when raped', 'in the real event of rape'.
As I said above, I know that's what he meant, but the nature of rape is a topic of much discussion. To state that "legitimate rape" instead of just "rape" is to state that some things that others classify as rapes are not rapes at all.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
Amaya wrote: The first question would be, why are you getting worked up over an idiot making an obviously contradictory statement? [...] Evangelists are known nutcases, why do you care what they think? [...] Why care?
I don't care. But it serves as an excellent example for the statement I made.
Amaya wrote: I've had minority coworkers bitch about that because it makes all poor unwed mothers look bad, when its only really applicable to a few.
Ah, so you agree with me. Okay, glad to hear it.
Amaya wrote: Here's the real question, if you're not in a financially stable situation, why would you even getting pregnant?
And are you deluded enough to think that they really intended it? Gak happens to people, and they have to deal with it one way or the other.
Amaya wrote: If you're going to stereotype the entire Republican party as a bunch of Bible thumping, gun loving, hypocritical, anti abortion donkey-caves
Then I'd be pretty accurate, given the way they depict themselves in their own primary election cycles.
Speaking in generalities about a political party's politicians (Especially one which enforces party loyalty like the Republican party tends to) does not indicate that there are no exceptions, but I assumed most reasonable people would realize this.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2012/08/20 08:16:15
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
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2012/08/20 08:09:06
Subject: Re:Idiot Poltician (R, MO) talks about "Legitimate rape"
Context still in place. Perhaps you just dont like what reading his comments in context tells you.
It indicates no plans to ban abortion for rape victims, denying you a legitimate excuse to get angry at his policies.
Maybe you wont be happy until Akin says. "I am a raving sexist fundamentalist bigot who wants to ban all abortion for rape victims. Make them interrupt their lives to raise the kids of violent criminals for 18 years."
Took you (and everyone else reading my posts) a while to work out he wasn't a Senator, been calling him that for the last x pages so you didn't realise either.
Because I only just got here, and have had to parse you're needlessly verbose nonsense.
Who cares outside the US, the fact he is a senior US elected official is what's relevant, it ought to change nothing but.....
Hey look, I mispoke a word. Have no mercy, rah, rah.
There is a massive difference between being a Senator and a Congressman. It isn't that hard to be elected to Congress, because you only need to appeal to your district.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/20 08:09:38
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2012/08/20 08:18:52
Subject: Re:Idiot Poltician (R, MO) talks about "Legitimate rape"
Maybe you wont be happy until Akin says. "I am a raving sexist fundamentalist bigot who wants to ban all abortion for rape victims. Make them interrupt their lives to raise the kids of violent criminals for 18 years."
In this conversation you do need to know, and you didn't attempt to find out.
So i need to be able to find Missouri on a blank map to talk about rape? or Akin? Which one. It pays for you to explain just how much BS you are spouting.
Evidently not as ignorant as some. Where is there any reference to this "rape"-that-is-not, you claim Akin believes in.
That was what I was asking for a citation about. Funnily enough I know what rape is, so sending me a Google scholar link to 'rape' is a little low, even for you.
I would also like to see how you back up the idea that Akin could believe in a form of rape or not rape that has a different chance of causing pregnancy. Remembering the context here set by the interviewer to Akin for pregnancy caused by rape, so anal rape doesn't count as an answer.
There have been extensive debates on this forum regarding the nature of rape.
Then you might have started by linking to the thread that hopefully defines "rape"-that-is-not.
Instead of guessing you might profit from learning from the law on this issue. Thats the clearest indication of whether full sexual intercourse is rape or not. You will find that if you have sexual intercourse with someone the circumstances and partner involved will in seperation or combine to legally define whether an act is rape. If full sexual intercourse is illegal either through denial of choice or age of partner its rape, if its otherwise legal its not rape. Two options, nice and easy. No phantom third option for you to claim Congressman Akin believes in because her one mispoke the words 'legitimate rape'.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/20 08:23:24
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2012/08/20 08:20:16
Subject: Re:Idiot Poltician (R, MO) talks about "Legitimate rape"
Amaya wrote: How are you getting he wants to ban abortion for rape victims out of that?
How are you getting anything other then that? Granted, I edited my post to add a second example and your post was so lengthy that you almost certainly missed my expanding upon this, but I think his stance on this is pretty unambiguous. When asked directly if he'd ban abortion even for rape victims, he replied we shouldn't have abortion in this country, when asked more specifically about the morning after pill, he reiterates the same.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
I did a Google search on 'legitimate rape'. After 24 pages still hadn't found any title reference to anything other than the current issue.
Well of course that's what you're going to get, this is a big story that's just broken, it's going to dominate news on the subject. It's also a particularly novel, odious way of phrasing the concept, worse than most have used in the past, so just typing those exact words into google will get you little of value.
So here's some examples of this culture among anti-abortions folk; Eric Turner, member of the House in Indiana and sponsor of the bill there that aimed to heavily curtail abortion rejected an exception for women who were raped, stating - “Someone who is desirous of an abortion could simply say that they’ve been raped or there’s incest." http://www.newser.com/story/115351/indiana-rep-women-will-lie-about-rape-to-get-abortions.html
Idaho senator Chuck Winder sponsored a bill stated the following when asked about having a rape exception entered into his own bill "I would hope that when a woman goes in to a physician with a rape issue, that physician will indeed ask her about perhaps her marriage, was this pregnancy caused by normal relations in a marriage or was it truly caused by a rape."
I stand by my original premise, it is fairer for us to wait until the Senator has had fair chance to explain himself giving the voting public in Missouri (therefore by extension everyone else) the opportunity to understand precisely what he meant.
And I'm going to be fair to you and assume you're entirely unaware of the culture shown by, but not at all exclusive to congressmen Akin, Turner and Winder, and that unfamiliarity has led you to be far more generous than is sensible.
Because this is a thing that is not at all common among anti-abortion political groups in the US. And as such there is absolutely nothing unreasonable about someone using plain language to explain something that is commonly believed by people like him.
Fixed.
Absolute crap. There is simply no way to explain away his comments as anything other than what they were. He believes that there is some kind of anti-rape defence in the body that magically knows if the woman is really resisting the man or not, and if so then it produces some kind of anti-sperm measure. He believes this in spite of the fact that no medical practioner has ever located any such mechanism in the body, or even speculated about such. Basically he believes it because it makes it easier for him to believe certain things about rape, and likely other things about women who are carrying babies they don't want.
Sure, it will get used for political advantage. But that's what should happen when people say odious, idiotic things. Pretending to be 'fair' by not bothering to read the statement in question is frankly ridiculous approach.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/20 08:33:04
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2012/08/20 08:25:58
Subject: Re:Idiot Poltician (R, MO) talks about "Legitimate rape"
Orlanth wrote: If full sexual intercourse is illegal either through denial of choice or age of partner its rape, if its otherwise legal its not rape. Two options, nice and easy. No phantom third option for you to claim Congressman Akin believes in because her one mispoke the words 'legitimate rape'.
Good job, you finally stumbled on the crux of the "What is rape?" question.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
