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Most folks (myself included) have been playing that Flat Out happens in the Shooting phase. Upon a closer reading of the rule, I suspect that Flat Out happens in the Movement phase. This reading of the rule would "fix" a lot of things like whether passengers can fire from a vehicle before the vehicles moves Flat Out and actually makes grav chute and skies of blood a little worth it.

Flat Out pg 72 - A vehicle can elect to move Flat Out instead of firing in the Shooting phase, immediately moving up to 6"

The key word for me there is immediately. You move "immediately" in the movement phase by electing not to shoot in the shooting phase. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised in GW further clarified this in the FAQ as the RAW makes most sense - Flat Out is a continuation of movement. The Flat Out rule doesn't state that the movement happens in the shooting phase and why should this be the one form of vehicle movement that DOESN'T happen in the movement phase.

The reading boils down to whether the clause "instead of firing in the Shooting phase" refers to when the Flat Out moves occur (i.e "in the Shooting phase") or whether "instead of firing in the Shooting phase" is the qualifier that allows the vehicle to move Flat Out as movement as long as it doesn't fire in the subsequent Shooting Phase.

Add to that that the Run rule (pg 14) explicitly states that it happens in the Shooting Phase. Flat Out (at least by my reading) does not.

I honestly don't expect anyone to change the way they play this until (or if) GW FAQs it. Just thought I would bring it up for grins.

It's a matter of grammar.

It does say " A vehicle can elect to move Flat Out instead of firing in the Shooting phase..."

The addition of a simple comma would make it clear.

" A vehicle can elect to move flat out instead of firing, in the shooting phase..."

A better way for it have been written would be; "In the shooting phase, a vehicle can elect to go flat out instead of firing..."

Here is a similar example.

"I shot an elephant in my pajamas."

How he got into my pajamas is a mystery to me! Obviously, it was I that was wearing the pajamas.

 Idolator wrote:

"I shot an elephant in my pajamas."

How he got into my pajamas is a mystery to me! Obviously, it was I that was wearing the pajamas.

Or you're Groucho Marx

 MorgrimDark wrote:
The key word for me there is immediately. You move "immediately" in the movement phase by electing not to shoot in the shooting phase.

Except that the shooting phase is where you decide who is shooting. So the 'immediately' is actually just saying that in the shooting phase, when you elect to not shoot, you immediately move.


Flat Out and Turbo Boosting were specifically moved to the shooting phase this edition in order to make it easier for people to remember that it happened.

 Idolator wrote:
The addition of a simple comma would make it clear.

" A vehicle can elect to move flat out instead of firing, in the shooting phase..."

That would be appalling grammar.

Pg 78, Transports, Embarking
If a vehicle moved before its passengers embarked it may not move any further that turn (including pivoting on the spot or moving flat out).

Pretty good evendence that you move flat out in the shooting phase. I think that the flat out section comes after the shooting section not the movement section might be another reason.

insaniak wrote:

Idolator wrote:The addition of a simple comma would make it clear.

" A vehicle can elect to move flat out instead of firing, in the shooting phase..."

That would be appalling grammar.

That's why I put the second one. Appalling as it is, it's still better than what exists.

 insaniak wrote:

 Idolator wrote:
The addition of a simple comma would make it clear.

" A vehicle can elect to move flat out, instead of firing, in the shooting phase..."

That would be appalling grammar.

That sentence needs a comma between "out" and "instead" to make it grammatically correct.

I put it in for you.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Idolator wrote:
The addition of a simple comma would make it clear.

" A vehicle can elect to move flat out, instead of firing, in the shooting phase..."

That would be appalling grammar.

That sentence needs a comma between "out" and "instead" to make it grammatically correct.

I put it in for you.

Thanks, dude.

I missed that, when I was typing, then missed it again! I no type de engrish too goodly.

My point was valid, however.

Not being a reader of White Dwarf, I am wondering whether any of the battle reports indicate when Flat Out takes places. I realizing I am likely kicking against the pricks with my statement, but I am still puzzled by the use of the word "immediately".

As one poster put it, this means that when its the vehicle's turn to shoot, it can instead move immediately. Given that the order of operation is entirely up to the player whose turn it is, the word "immediately" is seemingly redundant in that context.

As far as where commas go, my re-read of the rule was drawn to the notion of "instead of firing in the Shooting phase" being the a qualifier (indeed the only qualifier) that allows a vehicle to elect to move Flat Out and not as a definitive statement viz when the Flat Out move actually takes place.

Had GW intended the action to take place in the shooting phase, then the aforementioned commas would have been included "..., instead of firing, in the Shooting phase." This then would be a definitive statement as to when the movement takes place and out qualify it as a movement that takes places outside of the official Movement Phase.

I am guessing though that there is some WD battle report that refutes my point. If anyone finds it let me know.

 MorgrimDark wrote:
As one poster put it, this means that when its the vehicle's turn to shoot, it can instead move immediately. Given that the order of operation is entirely up to the player whose turn it is, the word "immediately" is seemingly redundant in that context.

No, the immediately just makes it clear that the movement happens at that point (in the shooting phase), since you can't normally move in the shooting phase.

But when else would the movement happen?

To me the biggest problem is that this explanation renders "in the Shooting phase" redundant. You would just be able to say "instead of shooting" if it was intended to mean what you say it means, right?

Without an explicit permission to move in the shooting phase, we would have no way of knowing just when the movement is supposed to happen.

But if it meant definitely that you move in the shooting phrase, it would give you permission without the immediately:

" A vehicle can elect to move Flat Out instead of firing in the Shooting phase, moving up to 6" "

 MorgrimDark wrote:
...I am still puzzled by the use of the word "immediately".

I'm honestly a bit unclear as to why GW ever uses that word at all. I don't think there are any rules it makes more clear, but there have been several where it's been argued over.

The hilarity from my perspective is that the argument inevitably involves somebody using "immediately" to mean "at another time altogether" - practically its opposite.

Pyrian wrote:

 MorgrimDark wrote:
...I am still puzzled by the use of the word "immediately".

I'm honestly a bit unclear as to why GW ever uses that word at all. I don't think there are any rules it makes more clear, but there have been several where it's been argued over.

They use it to keep it consistant with the 'Run' rule. When a unit runs, you roll a D6 to determine the distance they may run. "Models in the unit may then immediately move up to that distance in inches."

Run and flat out are 2 rules that allow a unit to move in the shooting phase.

You select a unit, it either shoots (immediately) or runs or makes a flat out move, if allowed, and also "immediately". No big mystery here.

 Doomhunter wrote:
Pg 78, Transports, Embarking
If a vehicle moved before its passengers embarked it may not move any further that turn (including pivoting on the spot or moving flat out).

Pretty good evendence that you move flat out in the shooting phase. I think that the flat out section comes after the shooting section not the movement section might be another reason.

Seems to me that since you can't really embark/disembark in the shooting phase, why would this rule even bother mentioning flat out if vehicles did in fact move in the shooting phase? Not to mention it lumps flat out with pivoting (which happens during movement).

NoneSuch wrote:

Seems to me that since you can't really embark/disembark in the shooting phase, why would this rule even bother mentioning flat out if vehicles did in fact move in the shooting phase? Not to mention it lumps flat out with pivoting (which happens during movement).

The rule forbids both pivoting and moving Flat Out, but that doesn't mean both would happen in the movement phase. That sentence doesn't clarify the question at hand at all.

There is a chart in the rulebooks appendex, pg 428, titled "Moving in the shooting phase". Flat out is present on that chart.

Definatly better evdence that flat out happens in the shooting phase.

I wish it did still happen in the movement phase, it would make a CCB extremely nasty again.

But, alas, i fear 'tis not so.