Switch Theme:

Eldar warlock powers and deny the witch  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Iron Fang





In the Eldar codex, warlocks can buy psychic powers that are permanently available and don't need to be tested for. Also warlocks are mastery level 0. The power in question is "destructor", which is just a heavy flamer.

When using destructor on enemies, does it count as a psychic power that can be nullified by using deny the witch?

Khador 
   
Made in bg
Cosmic Joe





Bulgaria

No.


Nosebiter wrote:
Codex Space Marine is renamed as Codex Counts As Because I Dont Like To Loose And Gw Hates My Army.
 
   
Made in us
Iron Fang





So are they immune to nullification and psyker hoods or whatever too?

Khador 
   
Made in bg
Cosmic Joe





Bulgaria

A true psyhic power takes a warp charge and is tested for, the "warlock psyhic powers" are only such in name but not in rules.


Nosebiter wrote:
Codex Space Marine is renamed as Codex Counts As Because I Dont Like To Loose And Gw Hates My Army.
 
   
Made in fi
Confessor Of Sins




Destructor is classified as a PSA in the Eldar FAQ - it's certainly a psychic power, you just don't need charges to use it.
   
Made in us
Irked Necron Immortal







Yes, the unit targeted may not Deny the Witch. However, a Necrons Canoptek Spyder with the Gloom Prism upgrade can still nullify your power. Im sure theres other instances like this with other armies, but as its written, no Deny the Witch or the Psychic Hood nullification process. :3

Actually, I reread the Gloom Prism upgrade. No stopping the Warlock there either.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/22 04:57:23


 
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Kansas City, Missouri

So this means you can Ruke the Witch against such attacks? Even against overwatch and the like?

" I don't lead da Waagh I build it! " - Big-Mek Wurrzog

List of Da Propahly Zogged!!!
 
   
Made in us
Irked Necron Immortal







Nope, no Deny the Witch against a Warlock model. Do note though, your unable to use Destructor in Overwatch as its limited to use during the Shooting Phase.

All in all though, this aint too bad for the Eldar. They could use a leg up and this certainly helps.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





US

Xzerios wrote:
Nope, no Deny the Witch against a Warlock model. Do note though, your unable to use Destructor in Overwatch as its limited to use during the Shooting Phase.

All in all though, this aint too bad for the Eldar. They could use a leg up and this certainly helps.


This is a very lofty interpretation, not one that many will enforce unless they feel like being TFG. Warlocks have no warp charges, they don't cast powers, their power is always on, and in EVERY other respect the power is just a manifestation of a heavy flame thrower. While assuming GW will FAQ correct this a fleeting prayer, It is pretty blisteringly obvious that the power is meant to act just like the model was holding a heavy flamer.

Craftworld Uaire-Nem pics "Like shimmering daggers of light our fury shall rain down and cleanse this battlefield." Autarch of Uaire-Nem
BlueDagger's Nomad pics - "Morality, my friend, is merely a price tag." - BlueDagger, Contraband Dealer. Holo-recording played during the murder trial of an undercover PanOceania officer. Court Record 9002xaB, . Infinity Nomads - Come see what it's all about!
|Looking for War-gaming matches in the Colorado area? Colorado Infinity
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Anacortes

Did they say it can only be used in the shooting phase, cuzisnt over wathc just another shooting phase out of sequence. Makes ya think twice on charging them for sure.

In a dog eat dog be a cat. 
   
Made in us
Iron Fang





Lungpickle wrote:
Did they say it can only be used in the shooting phase, cuzisnt over wathc just another shooting phase out of sequence. Makes ya think twice on charging them for sure.


I don't know the exact wording off the top of my head, but if it says shooting phase only, then that means no overwatch. Overwatch is a part of the assault phase, even if it uses shooting attacks. I think it says it's a psychic shooting attack though, iirc I don't think it specifies the phase it has to be used in

Khador 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





US

The wording of the power states that you can use it as a normal shooting attack in the shooting phase. However it is a 4th ed codex, so it wasn't even imagined back then that there would be shooting in the assault phase.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/22 20:39:03


Craftworld Uaire-Nem pics "Like shimmering daggers of light our fury shall rain down and cleanse this battlefield." Autarch of Uaire-Nem
BlueDagger's Nomad pics - "Morality, my friend, is merely a price tag." - BlueDagger, Contraband Dealer. Holo-recording played during the murder trial of an undercover PanOceania officer. Court Record 9002xaB, . Infinity Nomads - Come see what it's all about!
|Looking for War-gaming matches in the Colorado area? Colorado Infinity
 
   
Made in us
Irked Necron Immortal







 BlueDagger wrote:

This is a very lofty interpretation, not one that many will enforce unless they feel like being TFG. Warlocks have no warp charges, they don't cast powers, their power is always on, and in EVERY other respect the power is just a manifestation of a heavy flame thrower. While assuming GW will FAQ correct this a fleeting prayer, It is pretty blisteringly obvious that the power is meant to act just like the model was holding a heavy flamer.

I understand your point of view. I dont play Eldar myself but I understand the dire straights the codex is in (Tau as well). However, this forum is the debate of RAW, not RAI. :3

 
   
Made in us
Iron Fang





@ xzerios, I'd say it's more of a discussion of a gray area in the RAI. Everything's changed, so we have to interpret how it would've been written, had it been written for the modern edition.
Just think- the dark reaper lord has acute senses, which made them largely immune to night fighting in 4th and 5th, and now it let's them re-roll outflanking, for the heavy support unit that sits and mows down meq. Granted they don't get any night fighting bonuses just becaus they're supposed to in 4th, but raw is a little too literal in some cases now that Eldar are two editions old.

But if it says that destructor is used only in the shooting phase, then that's just another unfortunate thing that got lost in translation, and we'll have to wait until the new Eldar to see how raw wants them played.

The rai question here is whether or not destructor is technically wargear, or a deniable psyker power

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/22 21:03:44


Khador 
   
Made in us
Irked Necron Immortal







Personally, Id give the Eldar player the power for Overwatch as they dont have any ranged weapons outside of the Singing Spear. Your correct though in that the codex is two editions old and hasnt translated to 6th well.

To the 6th edition Eldar, perhaps?

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Can someone supply the logic for why you can't Deny the Witch on Destructor?

   
Made in us
Iron Fang





They do have a pistol, but I'd take the spear since it's fleshbane! But the trick is that once 6th comes out, all questions will be answered and there'll be no arguing it anymore, since they will have accounted for such things as deny the witch and overwatch in the new wording. Time to cross my fingers and hope for the best (wording possible)!

Khador 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





US

RAW and RAI for desructor is clear, you never roll a psy test therefor the power can not be fought with DtW.

"If a psychic power is targeted on an enemy unit, and the Psychic test is passed, the target can attempt to Deny the Witch before the psychic power is resolved"

The power never takes a psy test nor does it automatically pass them.

Craftworld Uaire-Nem pics "Like shimmering daggers of light our fury shall rain down and cleanse this battlefield." Autarch of Uaire-Nem
BlueDagger's Nomad pics - "Morality, my friend, is merely a price tag." - BlueDagger, Contraband Dealer. Holo-recording played during the murder trial of an undercover PanOceania officer. Court Record 9002xaB, . Infinity Nomads - Come see what it's all about!
|Looking for War-gaming matches in the Colorado area? Colorado Infinity
 
   
Made in us
Iron Fang





coredump wrote:
Can someone supply the logic for why you can't Deny the Witch on Destructor?



I'd say it's because warlocks don't have a mastery level, don't get warp charges, and their powers are permanently available instead of being tested for. Also, it's a heavy flamer, and not some psychic shooting attack trickery. So basically all the criteria that makes something a psa, or general psyker power, is missing here.

Khador 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





US

 phxlord Eldrad wrote:
They do have a pistol, but I'd take the spear since it's fleshbane! But the trick is that once 6th comes out, all questions will be answered and there'll be no arguing it anymore, since they will have accounted for such things as deny the witch and overwatch in the new wording. Time to cross my fingers and hope for the best (wording possible)!


You take the spear now on most offensive warlocks because it's still S9 + D6 vs vehicles, not the new terrible S3+2D6. ;D

Craftworld Uaire-Nem pics "Like shimmering daggers of light our fury shall rain down and cleanse this battlefield." Autarch of Uaire-Nem
BlueDagger's Nomad pics - "Morality, my friend, is merely a price tag." - BlueDagger, Contraband Dealer. Holo-recording played during the murder trial of an undercover PanOceania officer. Court Record 9002xaB, . Infinity Nomads - Come see what it's all about!
|Looking for War-gaming matches in the Colorado area? Colorado Infinity
 
   
Made in us
Iron Fang





 BlueDagger wrote:
 phxlord Eldrad wrote:
They do have a pistol, but I'd take the spear since it's fleshbane! But the trick is that once 6th comes out, all questions will be answered and there'll be no arguing it anymore, since they will have accounted for such things as deny the witch and overwatch in the new wording. Time to cross my fingers and hope for the best (wording possible)!


You take the spear now on most offensive warlocks because it's still S9 + D6 vs vehicles, not the new terrible S3+2D6. ;D


Is that right? I thought spears went the way of witch blades with user+2d6. Or are singing spears not in the weapon section of the brb?

Khador 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 phxlord Eldrad wrote:
...if it says shooting phase only, then that means no overwatch.
The text is not that clear. It says shooting phase, but there is no "only". Of course, it's not enough to not be restricted to the shooting phase, they must also have permission to fire in the assault phase. Where could that permission come from? The overwatch rule itself.

It's worth noting specifically that there is no functional wording difference in this respect between firing destructor and firing any ranged weapon. You fire destructor in the shooting phase. You fire a bolt pistol in the shooting phase - yes, that's a rule, too (not bolt pistol specific, of course, that's just an example). You can fire a bolt pistol on overwatch because overwatch overrides the normal shooting sequence and allows you to fire ranged weapons in the assault phase instead of the shooting phase. I see no reason - and indeed no relevant distinction - why the same logic would not apply to Destructor.
   
Made in us
Iron Fang





Pyrian wrote:
 phxlord Eldrad wrote:
...if it says shooting phase only, then that means no overwatch.
The text is not that clear. It says shooting phase, but there is no "only". Of course, it's not enough to not be restricted to the shooting phase, they must also have permission to fire in the assault phase. Where could that permission come from? The overwatch rule itself.

It's worth noting specifically that there is no functional wording difference in this respect between firing destructor and firing any ranged weapon. You fire destructor in the shooting phase. You fire a bolt pistol in the shooting phase - yes, that's a rule, too (not bolt pistol specific, of course, that's just an example). You can fire a bolt pistol on overwatch because overwatch overrides the normal shooting sequence and allows you to fire ranged weapons in the assault phase instead of the shooting phase. I see no reason - and indeed no relevant distinction - why the same logic would not apply to Destructor.


I tend not to remember the brb word for exact word, so I'm actually not 100% on raw. But you make a good point on the pistols, so by the same logic destructor is overwatch approved.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/22 22:14:21


Khador 
   
Made in us
Irked Necron Immortal







phxlord Eldrad wrote:
coredump wrote:Can someone supply the logic for why you can't Deny the Witch on Destructor?




I'd say it's because warlocks don't have a mastery level, don't get warp charges, and their powers are permanently available instead of being tested for. Also, it's a heavy flamer, and not some psychic shooting attack trickery. So basically all the criteria that makes something a psa, or general psyker power, is missing here.

Close, its the wording of the powers for Warlocks.

Pg 28 Eldar Codex wrote:
Warlock Powers
A Warlock's power is available permanently, so he does not need to take a Psychic test to use it.


In order to use Deny the Witch, you roll after they have passed their Psychic test. As above outlines, no test was made and the power goes off as normal; Thus no Deny the Witch.

Pyrian wrote:It's worth noting specifically that there is no functional wording difference in this respect between firing destructor and firing any ranged weapon. You fire destructor in the shooting phase. You fire a bolt pistol in the shooting phase - yes, that's a rule, too (not bolt pistol specific, of course, that's just an example). You can fire a bolt pistol on overwatch because overwatch overrides the normal shooting sequence and allows you to fire ranged weapons in the assault phase instead of the shooting phase. I see no reason - and indeed no relevant distinction - why the same logic would not apply to Destructor.

No, no relative difference by the definition. However, the rules for these powers specifically state they may only be used in the Shooting Phase and the Eldar FaQ did not adjust the wording so they may be used for Overwatch, which as we all know happens in the Assault Phase.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/22 23:25:05


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





What other Psy powers are there that do not require a psy test?

Any?


   
Made in us
Irked Necron Immortal







All Psychic powers require a Psychic test. The Warlock model is the only model that (I know of) has such rules wording to prevent a Deny the Witch roll currently as it doesnt need to roll for the Pyschic test. :3

 
   
Made in ca
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller






The only other unit I know of that auto passes psychic tests is Typhus but it states that he always successfully passes, which would allow DtW. Warlocks are just stated to never having to roll anyway.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Autopassing in one form or another is still passing a psychic test. So targeted powers "PSA" will trigger DTW.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Xzerios wrote:
No, no relative difference by the definition.
And yet in your next sentence you will claim otherwise.

Xzerios wrote:
However, the rules for these powers specifically state they may only be used in the Shooting Phase...
No, it does not. Specifically, the word "only" is notably absent. The destructor's own rules allow you to use it in the shooting phase. The rules for overwatch allow it to be used in the assault phase. There is no corresponding restriction preventing destructor from being used in the assault phase. And if you read the permission to fire in the shooting phase as a restriction on firing in any other phase, then no weapons can use overwatch.
   
Made in gb
Boosting Space Marine Biker




England, West sussex.

Fragile wrote:
Autopassing in one form or another is still passing a psychic test. So targeted powers "PSA" will trigger DTW.


I would argue that you can not pass a test you do not take, auto or otherwise.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/23 02:45:25


Fritz40k forum: 40k only warhammer forum.

http://www.thewarmaster.com

Warmachine Menoth 60 points

SalamanderMarine

High Elves 2000 points

200 points
1000 points
1250 points
1500 points
300 points (in progress)
Tomb kings: 1000
High elves 2000 points


6th ed slate

2/0/3

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat440134a&categoryId=1000018%C2%A7ion=&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&start=2&multiPageMode=true

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/News/Downloads.html 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K You Make Da Call
Go to: