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You're saying you cannot pass a test you autopass?

That seems contradictory.

Basically psychic powers breakdown. Nothing in the breakdown of the Warlock shows that they are exempt from any of the pysker rules.

1. Expend warp charge.

Eldar FAQ. "Warlocks don't need Warp Charge to activate their powers, they are always on"

2. Declare Target.

By FAQ, Destructor is a PSA, which requires a target. pg 69

3. Psychic Test.

The Psyker must now pass a Psychic test to see if he can control the power.... A Psychic test is a Leadership Test

Codex.. "A warlock's power is available permanently, do he does not need to take a Psychic test to use it." This rule allows him to skip the Psychic Test. aka Auto pass.

If the psychic test is passed, the Psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved.

4. Deny the Witch.
If a power is targeted on an enemy (PSA's are targeted) and the test is passed (The test was passed, by the codex rule), the target can attempt to DTW.


Obviously there is no need for someone to DTW, if the Psychic Test failed, hence the language of the rule.

Fragile wrote:
Basically psychic powers breakdown. Nothing in the breakdown of the Warlock shows that they are exempt from any of the pysker rules.

1. Expend warp charge.

Eldar FAQ. "Warlocks don't need Warp Charge to activate their powers, they are always on"

2. Declare Target.

By FAQ, Destructor is a PSA, which requires a target. pg 69

3. Psychic Test.

The Psyker must now pass a Psychic test to see if he can control the power.... A Psychic test is a Leadership Test

Codex.. "A warlock's power is available permanently, do he does not need to take a Psychic test to use it." This rule allows him to skip the Psychic Test. aka Auto pass.

If the psychic test is passed, the Psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved.

4. Deny the Witch.
If a power is targeted on an enemy (PSA's are targeted) and the test is passed (The test was passed, by the codex rule), the target can attempt to DTW.


Obviously there is no need for someone to DTW, if the Psychic Test failed, hence the language of the rule.

"Does not need to take a Psychic test" is not not NOT the same thing as auto-passing a psychic test. The Warlock does NOT auto pass, he simply does not need to make one, the dice are not and never can be rolled for this.

This whole argument is basically the Warlock attempting to skirt the DTW, by using "he didnt have to pass a test therefore the rule that says [f a power is targeted on an enemy (PSA's are targeted) and the test is passed] doesnt apply to me.


Its the basic, old editions not fitting 100% with 6th. However, if the Warlock did not "pass" a test. Then the new psychic rule "If the psychic test is passed, the Psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved." means that the Warlock can never manifest a power, because he never "passed" a test and if it was not manifested, it cannot be resolved. pg 67.

Fragile wrote:
This whole argument is basically the Warlock attempting to skirt the DTW, by using "he didnt have to pass a test therefore the rule that says [f a power is targeted on an enemy (PSA's are targeted) and the test is passed] doesnt apply to me.


Its the basic, old editions not fitting 100% with 6th. However, if the Warlock did not "pass" a test. Then the new psychic rule "If the psychic test is passed, the Psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved." means that the Warlock can never manifest a power, because he never "passed" a test and if it was not manifested, it cannot be resolved. pg 67.

Your second paragraph amused me, so I'm jumping in.

It's true. If that was the only wording that applied, than a warlock would never activate a power. However, if you bother to read the Eldar codex, you'd know that they already covered that. Warlock powers are given permission to always be active. They don't have a time they are activated on the tabletop. It was this reasoning that stopped them from being victim to Psychic Hoods in 5th, and it also skirts that argument.

No Amanax, we are arguing over semantics of how a power is resolved.

In basic form, Warlocks are allowed to skip the Psychic Test.
The ability to skip the Psychic Test does not stop someone from using DTW.

Im well aware of what that second paragraph meant. It was pointing out the fallacy of harping on single words in rules. Obviously I did read the Codex, there since I quoted from it. FAQ gives them the rule to ignore the Warp Charge, Codex lets them ignore the Psychic Test, Neither allows them to ignore the DTW. And if someone were to make that claim that RAW, they "dont pass a test", then you can simply point to pg 67 and say RAW, if No test is made, no power is resolved.

Fragile wrote:
And if someone were to make that claim that RAW, they "dont pass a test", then you can simply point to pg 67 and say RAW, if No test is made, no power is resolved.

Except that the FAQ states that the power is always on. Therefor the power is always manifested.

"Warlocks dont need Warp Charge to activate their powers, they are always on"

Very clearly states that they dont need Warp charge, which is Step 1 in resolving a psychic power.

Manifesting the power comes from taking the Psychic Test. Step 3. Note that (they are always on) does not use the word Manifest.

Fragile wrote:
No Amanax, we are arguing over semantics of how a power is resolved.

In basic form, Warlocks are allowed to skip the Psychic Test.
The ability to skip the Psychic Test does not stop someone from using DTW.

Im well aware of what that second paragraph meant. It was pointing out the fallacy of harping on single words in rules. Obviously I did read the Codex, there since I quoted from it. FAQ gives them the rule to ignore the Warp Charge, Codex lets them ignore the Psychic Test, Neither allows them to ignore the DTW. And if someone were to make that claim that RAW, they "dont pass a test", then you can simply point to pg 67 and say RAW, if No test is made, no power is resolved.

No, Fragile. I understand exactly what you guys are talking about. I am pointing out, that your argument doesn't hold up. They say, that since steps are not taken as per the DtW rules, no DtW is taken. Your argument to that is if you want to go down that path, than since no test is taken to be passed, no power went off. Building upon your premise, I have pointed out that while you would be correct in most cases, the Eldar codex continues on to say that the power does work, despite it not meeting that particular condition of psychic tests, so you using it as an example failed to prove anything.

Personally, I can see it going either way, and will most likely leave it up to the opponent depending on how mad they will get about it. (Something to be discussed before the game). Until it is faq'd (If ever) than that will likely be the best way to handle it.

The codex says the power is "on", it does not say it "Manifests"

Yeah, Amanax, the core problem with all this stuff is Eldar is what 4th edition still?. In 5th you only had to pass the LD test and nothing more. Now we have a bunch of steps to go through. But using those steps you can infer certain things.

he Eldar codex continues on to say that the power does work, despite it not meeting that particular condition of psychic tests

And since it did work, by the new procedure that states "If the psychic test is passed, the Power manifests...."

Since the Warlock manifests the power, obviously he passed the test. Since he didn't need to roll 2d6, it is an "autopass"

But hopefully something will come out.. (personally I hope its a new codex) to clear it up.

See, right there, that logic seems to be a huge jump.

it does not say "doesn't need to roll" it doesn't state "autopass" or anything like that. It states you do not need to take one. This does not equate to it being an autopass. In fact, if you follow the line of thinking of the rule, and that it is permanently available (Including during your opponents first turn when you go second, which other psykers can't do) I would feel safe in saying that your chance to deny that power lies back before the game ever started. As such, you were never presented with the opportunity.

I'm with you, they just need to stop letting books be two editions out of date. One? Fine. Two? Horrible.

 Amanax wrote:
Personally, I can see it going either way, and will most likely leave it up to the opponent depending on how mad they will get about it. (Something to be discussed before the game). Until it is faq'd (If ever) than that will likely be the best way to handle it.

I'd probably negotiate it - maybe allow Destructor for Overwatch in return for it being subject to DTW?

Seeing the wordings does make it seem DTW applies anyway. It is a Psychic Shooting Attack and DTW isn't IMO dependent on the psy test, you're just reminded of it as a step in resolving a power. It's still a psychic power hitting an enemy unit.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Amanax wrote:
Personally, I can see it going either way, and will most likely leave it up to the opponent depending on how mad they will get about it. (Something to be discussed before the game). Until it is faq'd (If ever) than that will likely be the best way to handle it.

I'd probably negotiate it - maybe allow Destructor for Overwatch in return for it being subject to DTW?

Seeing the wordings does make it seem DTW applies anyway. It is a Psychic Shooting Attack and DTW isn't IMO dependent on the psy test, you're just reminded of it as a step in resolving a power. It's still a psychic power hitting an enemy unit.

And that is exactly why I can see it going either way. On one hand, it does skip most of the steps for DtW, and is a power that has already technically been activated. On the other hand, it is clearly stated as a psychic attack.

Xzerios wrote:
All Psychic powers require a Psychic test. The Warlock model is the only model that (I know of) has such rules wording to prevent a Deny the Witch roll currently as it doesnt need to roll for the Pyschic test. :3

Harlequin Shadowseer's Veil of Tears?

Homer

 Homer S wrote:

Xzerios wrote:
All Psychic powers require a Psychic test. The Warlock model is the only model that (I know of) has such rules wording to prevent a Deny the Witch roll currently as it doesnt need to roll for the Pyschic test. :3

Harlequin Shadowseer's Veil of Tears?

Homer

We are discussing all warlock power in Codex Eldar. The Shadowseer's entry states that his power is cast just like that of the warlocks

Um, unless I'm missing something, it's the exact same situation as the every power in the demons codex?

Powers in the Daemons Codex are not psychic. They are just shooting attacks.

and that would be the something I'm missing ;D

 airmang wrote:
Powers in the Daemons Codex are not psychic. They are just shooting attacks.

I've always played the Warlock powers this way as well, they function just like wargear.

I agree that Warlock powers should be affected by DtW, it seems like quite a stretch that you can *only* DtW if a test was passed.

Yes it is listed as a general step, but it is not listed as a requirement, just a step in the process.

OTOH, I would also allow Destructor for Overwatch.

I reread the rules for Destructor and it does not have the "only" that was pointed out earlier. It can be fired as a Overwatch due to the lack of that word.

The argument above that claims its an auto-pass is incorrect. The sentence lays it out verbatium that no test is ever initiated and due to the wording of the rules for the model and the written rules for Deny the Witch, you may not try for Deny the Witch against powers cast by Warlocks. The FaQ would have touched on this (as it seems like a slight oversight, but again, I think the Eldar could use some cheese like this) and cleared up the wording so it worked with Deny the Witch; Yet they didnt, so here we are.

Fragile wrote:
Basically psychic powers breakdown. Nothing in the breakdown of the Warlock shows that they are exempt from any of the pysker rules.

1. Expend warp charge.

Eldar FAQ. "Warlocks don't need Warp Charge to activate their powers, they are always on"

2. Declare Target.

By FAQ, Destructor is a PSA, which requires a target. pg 69

3. Psychic Test.

The Psyker must now pass a Psychic test to see if he can control the power.... A Psychic test is a Leadership Test

Codex.. "A warlock's power is available permanently, do he does not need to take a Psychic test to use it." This rule allows him to skip the Psychic Test. aka Auto pass.

If the psychic test is passed, the Psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved.

4. Deny the Witch.
If a power is targeted on an enemy (PSA's are targeted) and the test is passed (The test was passed, by the codex rule), the target can attempt to DTW.


Obviously there is no need for someone to DTW, if the Psychic Test failed, hence the language of the rule.

So, the Pro-DtW v. Warlock Powers people are saying since step 1 above doesn't happen, we can just skip to the blocking step. That would mean in targeting units with shooting if your target is out of line of sight because your models are in reserve, we can just skip to the resolving wounds step.

Homer

I'm in the "can't be DtW'd (simply put, there is no psychic test, and like others posted, there is nothing indicating it automatically passes), and it can be shot in Overwatch (as can any Witchfire attack, including those that use Warp Charge, as Warp Charge is generated per player turn, and the same locus that allows shooting attacks as Overwatch allows Witchfire as Overwatch, following all Snapfire fire rules, i.e. assuming it doesn't use a Blast).

As an aside, my interpretation of the Singing Spear is that it gains Armourbane (as a Witchblade) but retains its str9 against vehicles (as nothing contradicts the set value from the codex).

I think you mean Fleshbane, not Armourbane.

Happyjew wrote:
I think you mean Fleshbane, not Armourbane.

In fact I do not; Witchblades have both Fleshbane and Armourbane, and Armourbane is relevant to the aside I made (as we're discussing vehicles).

By your interpretation, Singing Spears would roll 9+2D6 vs vehicles, instead of 9+D6 or 3+2D6 against vehicles.

Happyjew wrote:
By your interpretation, Singing Spears would roll 9+2D6 vs vehicles, instead of 9+D6 or 3+2D6 against vehicles.

Indeed; this appears to be "Rules as Written".

The Eldar Codex declares Singing Spears to be Witchblades, but with a 12" range, and likewise provides a "set value" of str9 against vehicles.
40k6 BRB grants any Witchblade Armourbane and Fleshbane. (This is, of course, a change from how Witchblades were defined in 40k4 and 40k5 BRBs, i.e. this is where all Witchblades used to have str9 against vehicles.)
However, because the Singing Spear rules are more specific, they're the more "advanced" rule (a term from the BRB), so their specific rules (str9 vs. vehicles and 12" range Assault 1) continue to apply on top of the change to Witchblades (which they've always inherited their "basic" rules from).

To change how Singing Spears function (that is, from the RAW str9+2d6 vs. vehicles) would take:

[list][*]a definition in the BRB (not there)
[*]a BRB FAQ (not released)
[*]or a codex FAQ (not mentioned)
[/llist]

GW has yet to provide us with any of those.

It certainly is the silver lining to the Witchblade nerf, and really makes that 3pts worth it. That said, I would not be surprised if this was not RAI (but I do hope that it is), and thus it may be later FAQ'd... but who knows?

austinitor wrote:
The Eldar Codex declares Singing Spears to be Witchblades, but with a 12" range, and likewise provides a "set value" of str9 against vehicles.

I'm assuming you have a page reference for this?

C:Eldar, page 27 wrote: The singing spear is a psychically-charged weapon similar to the witchblade...

This part we can ignore as it is fluff, but does tell us the two weapons are similar in construction and how they work.

Like witchblades, singing spears wound on a X, but when rolling to damage a vehicle they have a Strength of Y.

This gives us the actual rules for Singing Spears. Also note that while the weapon does appear in the back of the BRB, it does not have Armourbane or Fleshbane.

Hmm... I'll stand corrected, then; as is probably obvious, I hadn't chosen to ignore that bit as "fluff, not crunch".