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I just back into Fantasy after over a decade and a friend and I are making 2500 point armies. I say competitive though because I know my buddy is going to be buying a tier 1 army so I need a high elf army to match him. Please rip this list to pieces because I haven't bought anything yet so anything and everything can be changed.

Teclis (Life) 475

Noble - BSB 168
-Great Weapon
-Armor of Caledor
-Phoenix Guardian

Mage - lvl 2 (Shadow) 165
-Seerstaff of Saphery

65 x Spearmen- Full Command with Banner of Movement 625

29 x White Lion-Full Command with Banner of Sorcery 515

23 x Swordmaster - Full Command 375

3 x Great Eagle 150

Total 2473

I have 25 points to spend on something. I don't remember the name of the banner for the spearmen but its the one that gives +1 to movement. I don't know if its very good but It seemed like it would be useful. The strategy is to put the BSB in the spearmen, Teclis with the lions and the mage in the swordmaster. Eagles fly around and either destroy war machines or just are generally annoying.

Like I said earlier, please pick this apart. I know that my friend will bring the most disgustingly overpowered army to play against me so I need every advantage I can get.

As far as good ideas go, putting Teclis in white lions is not in the top 3. Put your BSB in the lions and teclis in the MASSIVE spearmen bunker alongside the mage.

I'd bulk up the white lions to close to 40 and put them into horde formation, smaller swordmaster units can usually take care of themselves. Something to deal with fear might also help as that and counting on a good magic phase seem you be your only weaknesses.

Teclis (Life) 475

Noble - BSB 168
-Great Weapon
-Armor of Caledor
-Phoenix Guardian

Mage - lvl 2 (Shadow) 165
-Seerstaff of Saphery (Miasma, Enfeeble)

64 x Spearmen- Full Command with Lion Standard 626

40 x White Lion-Full Command with Banner of Sorcery 680

14 x Swordmaster - Full Command 240

3 x Great Eagle 150

Total 2499

Teclis and the Mage jon the spearmen, BSB with the Lion horde.

Does Dwellers below and Enfeeble work how I think it does, because reducing someone to ST 1 and then doing ST tests and they die is brutal.

First off Teclis will make for a boring game for you and your opponent And the idea is really to have fun at the end of the day.

But if your dead set on a WAAC list try this

Lords

Teclis
Moon Staff of Lileath, Scroll of Hoeth, Sword of Teclis, War Crown of Saphery
Heroes

Noble
Dragon armour, Great Weapon, Hand Weapon
Battle Standard Bearer
Banner of the World Dragon

Core

Spearmen
Musician, 65x Spearman, Standard Bearer

Special

Phoenix Guard
Keeper of the Flame, Musician, 57x Phoenix Guard
Standard Bearer
Banner of Sorcery

Rare

Great Eagle
Great Eagle
Great Eagle
Great Eagle

Put the BSB in your big unit of PG with Teclis with the flank held by your Spearmen. Use the eagles to keep the enemy at arms length while you magic everything into the ground. Its boring as piss to play with and against Let me know if you want a competive list that is fun (with some ideas on what models you like) and I will whip something up. Oh and its for 2400 hundred not 2500 just bump up the spearmen to mke the points.

Jubear- I wonder how you actually win with a list like that. What lore do you run with Teclis? I feel like any kind or war machine heavy list would really cause some problems; you only have 2 units and 4 individual models. If you could elaborate behind why you choose to have a horde of phoenix guard over white lions or swordmasters.

Also, and this is just a point I like to make, I have fun playing WAAC lists and I don't understand people who don't. No one goes into a game with the mindset that they want to lose, and no one makes a list that they know will lose. Doesn't that mean that everyone plays a WAAC list, or do you intentionally not bring good units? Also, I want to play the best lists against other really powerful lists. Thats what I consider to be fun.

 bepp90 wrote:

Also, and this is just a point I like to make, I have fun playing WAAC lists and I don't understand people who don't. No one goes into a game with the mindset that they want to lose, and no one makes a list that they know will lose. Doesn't that mean that everyone plays a WAAC list, or do you intentionally not bring good units? Also, I want to play the best lists against other really powerful lists. Thats what I consider to be fun.

Not everyone plays to win. Sure, everyone enjoys winning, but winning=/=FUN. There is no fun to be had in just steamrolling an opponent. It makes for a boring game. If at the end of your game you could have just rolled a 2+ to decide the game from turn 1, then you are doing it wrong.

WAAC lists are exactly that: win at any/all cost. They do not consider the opponent's level of fun in the game. So if EVERYONE took WAAC lists all the time, every single game would result in one person being pissed off that they didn't win, instead of focusing on having fun.

Now, there is a distinction between taking a balanced list, a WAAC list, and a handicap list. Most of the time handicap lists are those that are designed with a heavy theme, even if that theme means taking subpar units or builds. WAAC lists of course take nothing but beatstick units and characters with tactics designed solely to win. Balanced lists are somewhere in the middle of the other two. Balanced lists generally take strong options, but not ludicrously OP units(like Teclis).

TL;DR No one enjoys playing against a WAAC army. If you use a WAAC army in non tourney games, you will run out of people willing to play you rather quickly. If you run a WAAC army in a tourney, you will get destroyed on your Sportsmanship score.

 bepp90 wrote:
Jubear- I wonder how you actually win with a list like that. What lore do you run with Teclis? I feel like any kind or war machine heavy list would really cause some problems; you only have 2 units and 4 individual models. If you could elaborate behind why you choose to have a horde of phoenix guard over white lions or swordmasters.

Also, and this is just a point I like to make, I have fun playing WAAC lists and I don't understand people who don't. No one goes into a game with the mindset that they want to lose, and no one makes a list that they know will lose. Doesn't that mean that everyone plays a WAAC list, or do you intentionally not bring good units? Also, I want to play the best lists against other really powerful lists. Thats what I consider to be fun.

Sorry forgot to add the lore its Life BTW. Its a point denial list, you simply dump the PG in the corner of the board with the spearmen behind them. Between the +4 ward PG have and the buffs from Teclis (that you cant really fail to get off) The whole army just sits in one place and uses eagles to redirect anything stupid enuff to try and feth with a horde of buffed PG (who thanks to the world banner are immune to all magic) While Teclis Dwellers units into the ground. Once (if) the enemy gets close to your PG you pop Teclis out the back and hide him in the spearmen. Warmachines dont really bother toughness 6 +4 ward PG (or anything else for that matter) and the PG will win 99% of matchups in the game because they are good in combat and dont give up much in the way of combat res. Even 40 Mindrazored corsairs with the cauldron will only kill about 15 after the PG swing and kill about the same. Next turn the PG will be at an advantage.

I am not advocating bringing weak list but I also dont advocate making stupid list like I mentioned above. Normally massive death star list dont work but in this case they do as the enemy simply cant get to your points (other then the eagles) But its massively boring to play and requires zero skill. I have about 200 plus games of 8th edition under my belt and I know what I am talking about.

Jubear isn't selling a lie here, what he's saying is true. For obvious reasons, there are VERY few who will call Teclis any less than overpowered, and those that do will absolutely refuse to not at least admit that he is powerful and he loses you friends. Furthermore, playing a WAAC list, like the one described above, does prove both successful and boring; it's a mirror of my list at 2000, unit adjustment as needed, for when my FLGS gets a jerk running a steamroll list that is annoying everyone. It shuts people up, no mess, no fuss, and definitely no fun.

As far as all list being WAAC, there's a slight point to note. There's a difference between wanting to win with the army you play, and building an army that will win. You're right in thinking that there aren't many who start a battle and try to lose. Everyone plays to win to some extent, but the list being built doesn't always go right after that goal.

A good example is a Skaven list I have for 2000 points. I build it to have fun and see what kind of ridiculous mayhem I can cause, so I put in every possible unit that can have a random and disastrous effect (bells, rattling runs, cannons, warplock engineers, etc). I try to win, but the list was built with a less efficient and much more entertaining way about going about it.

Now, with THAT being said, from your original lists, I'd change the white lions into two squads of 21 and run them 7 wide 3, drop the sword masters, grab another great eagle, get rid of the lvl 2 mage, keep Teclis, and lower the number of the spearmen horde appropriately, along with losing the mage and swordmasters, to get a block of 25 or so phoenix guard. Maybe 30 if the points allow, but 21-21-25, without upgrades, should put you a little over 1000 if my math is correct, which it is.

Food for thought.

Thanks so much for the feedback, its really helpful. Below is the updated list based upon some of the ideas that you guys have given.

*I have just found out that my friend is bringing an empire WM spam list, if that has any influence on your critique or analysis*

Teclis (Life) 475

Noble - BSB 168
-Great Weapon
-Armor of Caledor
-Phoenix Guardian

69 x Spearmen- Full Command 646

39 x White Lion-Full Command with Banner of Sorcery 665

21 x Swordmaster - Full Command 345

4 x Great Eagle 200

Total 2499

Run Teclis with the spearmen and BSB with the lions.

I combined the ideas that a lot of you guys had into this list. I don't think the second mage was doing much and since teclis is mostly unstopable, all the oppenents dispel dice will probably just be used against him. Having two hordes that are supported by the strongest mage in the game is pretty daunting. Also four eagles is better than three.


As for the WAAC list building, I don't disagree with you guys that playing simply to win and without regard for your opponent is not the way to play this game. Its no fun to play against "That Guy" and I don't plan on being that person. However, my friends and the group of people I play with only bring WAAC lists and if you aren't pushing the boundary, then you're going to get beaten and beaten badly. Also I find its more of the person playing that list that ruins the game, than the list itself. I can remember many games that I get absolutely murdered but had a great time doing it;so long as you're not a jerk I think WAAC lists or really competitive lists have a place in friendly play.