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I was looking throught the 6th edition rulebook and I noticed that dark angels and space wolves can only be allies of convenience and I'm just wondering why is that? did something happen between them? im not familiar with the history between the two races at all btw.

The Allies chart is, in a number of cases, sadly not representative of existing fluff about the relationship between various armies.

In case of the Space Wolves + Dark Angels, however, I believe there is some rivalry between them ever since the Primarch of one knocked the Primarch of the others out?

There are three instances where Leman Russ and the Lion came to blows, but after the Heresy these made their relationship stronger, but I guess over time, only the animosity between the legions is remembered not the bond of brotherhood forged by the Primarchs.

The first instance was on Dulan, which Lynata mentions, the second was en route back to Terra during the Heresy, where once again they come to blows as a Traitor is revealed in their midst, and the third was at the end of the Siege where Russ blamed Lion for the death of the Emperor and the Lion stabs Russ in the heart.

All from WD #233

During the Great Crusade, Russ and Jonson were both trying to conquer the same palace as a matter of honour and glory. However, they couldn't agree and came to blows on it. Eventually, Russ realized how silly them fighting about it was and started laughing. Jonson thought he was laughing at him and punched him square in the face, knocking out Russ. While he was knocked out, Jonson then went and conquered the palace by himself, which ticked off Russ when he came to.

Since then, the Space Wolves and Dark Angels haven't trusted one another, and each Chapters' quirks and reputations (supposed barbarism and secrecy) haven't helped matters at all.

Pilau Rice wrote:There are three instances where Leman Russ and the Lion came to blows, but after the Heresy these made their relationship stronger, but I guess over time, only the animosity between the legions is remembered not the bond of brotherhood forged by the Primarchs.

That's a pretty good theory. I could totally see the Primarchs themselves not thinking too much about it - but the Chapters themselves, following the usual Astartes Pride, manage to see only the insults. Imagine one Chapter immortalising their Primarch's victory over the other in a legend, and how the Marines of the other Chapter would react if they are "taunted" this way.

Pilau Rice wrote:Russ blamed Lion for the death of the Emperor and the Lion stabs Russ in the heart.

lol, ouch

first fight started with a sucker punch and ended in a sucker punch
2nd was when SW had encounter with Alpha legion also ended draw (both of them drew swords - news of Heresy interrupted them)
3rd was like this Lion stabs Russ after Siege of Terra when the Lion blames Russ for stopping on the way to Terra( defending some planets ). Russ is saddened by the Emperors fall and merely bares his chest to the Lion. Lion stabs him but at the last second realises what he is doing and turns the blade so Russ survives. Russ awakes to the Lion and Dorn standing over his bed with the Lion asking for forgiveness. Thats quoting WD



and aside their differences - 2 legions did respect each other quite well

and last duel was Ragnar Blackmane vs Belial - Blackmane won

Actually, I think Marko has it right Lynata about the stabby thing.

Russ bares his heart for the blade but Lion turns it at the last minute.

As far as I recall though Marko, it is a Daemon on the bridge of one of their ships not an Alpha Legionnaire.

Lynata wrote:That's a pretty good theory. I could totally see the Primarchs themselves not thinking too much about it - but the Chapters themselves, following the usual Astartes Pride, manage to see only the insults. Imagine one Chapter immortalising their Primarch's victory over the other in a legend, and how the Marines of the other Chapter would react if they are "taunted" this way.

It's like every thread that involves Thousand Sons and Space Wolves

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Actually, I think Marko has it right Lynata about the stabby thing.

Russ bares his heart for the blade but Lion turns it at the last minute.

As far as I recall though Marko, it is a Daemon on the bridge of one of their ships not an Alpha Legionnaire.

Lynata wrote:That's a pretty good theory. I could totally see the Primarchs themselves not thinking too much about it - but the Chapters themselves, following the usual Astartes Pride, manage to see only the insults. Imagine one Chapter immortalising their Primarch's victory over the other in a legend, and how the Marines of the other Chapter would react if they are "taunted" this way.

It's like every thread that involves Thousand Sons and Space Wolves

Ooo my memory doesn't serves me well this days....:-)
and just a speculation - there was duel - Logan vs Azrael on the matter who will be the leading dude against Abby

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Actually, I think Marko has it right Lynata about the stabby thing.

Russ bares his heart for the blade but Lion turns it at the last minute.

As far as I recall though Marko, it is a Daemon on the bridge of one of their ships not an Alpha Legionnaire.

Lynata wrote:That's a pretty good theory. I could totally see the Primarchs themselves not thinking too much about it - but the Chapters themselves, following the usual Astartes Pride, manage to see only the insults. Imagine one Chapter immortalising their Primarch's victory over the other in a legend, and how the Marines of the other Chapter would react if they are "taunted" this way.

It's like every thread that involves Thousand Sons and Space Wolves

Ooo my memory doesn't serves me well this days....:-)

The Space Wolves were engaged by the Alpha Legion on the way to Terra if I recall, and the White Scars had to leave them to fight on their own I think that's from Collected Visions the Wolf and the Khan.

I wonder how they get all of this stuff to fit in with each other.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Actually, I think Marko has it right Lynata about the stabby thing.

Russ bares his heart for the blade but Lion turns it at the last minute.

As far as I recall though Marko, it is a Daemon on the bridge of one of their ships not an Alpha Legionnaire.

Lynata wrote:That's a pretty good theory. I could totally see the Primarchs themselves not thinking too much about it - but the Chapters themselves, following the usual Astartes Pride, manage to see only the insults. Imagine one Chapter immortalising their Primarch's victory over the other in a legend, and how the Marines of the other Chapter would react if they are "taunted" this way.

It's like every thread that involves Thousand Sons and Space Wolves

Ooo my memory doesn't serves me well this days....:-)

The Space Wolves were engaged by the Alpha Legion on the way to Terra if I recall, and the White Scars had to leave them to fight on their own I think that's from Collected Visions the Wolf and the Khan.

I wonder how they get all of this stuff to fit in with each other.

Hats down to you sir...

Also when ever the SW and DA are involved in the same campaign they will put forward their best fighters so that they can re-enact the fight between the Lion and the Wolf.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
During the Great Crusade, Russ and Jonson were both trying to conquer the same palace as a matter of honour and glory. However, they couldn't agree and came to blows on it. Eventually, Russ realized how silly them fighting about it was and started laughing. Jonson thought he was laughing at him and punched him square in the face, knocking out Russ. While he was knocked out, Jonson then went and conquered the palace by himself, which ticked off Russ when he came to.

Since then, the Space Wolves and Dark Angels haven't trusted one another, and each Chapters' quirks and reputations (supposed barbarism and secrecy) haven't helped matters at all.

You got the order of events wrong.

Both were trying to take down a palace, like you said. Russ vowed that he would be the one to claim the head of the tyrant (iirc, the tyrant insulted the emperor or Russ or something like that), and led a headlong rush at the gates. The Lion ignored Russ's antics, and proceeded with his existing plan. Without the Dark Angels' support, the Wolves suffered disproportionate casualties. To make matters worse, the Lion beat Russ to claiming the tyrant's head.

Russ, supposedly angry over his losses (but in actuality bitter about being upstaged), attacked the Lion. They fought to a standstill for a while, until Russ finally got over it and saw the humor in the situation, but the Lion was not amused and knocked him the feth out.

Think of it like this: When the Ultramarines and the Blood Angels work together, they work in concert and form one cohesive force. When the Space Wolves and the Dark Angels work together its more like a friendly rivalry with both forces trying to out do each other.

 Omegus wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
During the Great Crusade, Russ and Jonson were both trying to conquer the same palace as a matter of honour and glory. However, they couldn't agree and came to blows on it. Eventually, Russ realized how silly them fighting about it was and started laughing. Jonson thought he was laughing at him and punched him square in the face, knocking out Russ. While he was knocked out, Jonson then went and conquered the palace by himself, which ticked off Russ when he came to.

Since then, the Space Wolves and Dark Angels haven't trusted one another, and each Chapters' quirks and reputations (supposed barbarism and secrecy) haven't helped matters at all.

You got the order of events wrong.

Both were trying to take down a palace, like you said. Russ vowed that he would be the one to claim the head of the tyrant (iirc, the tyrant insulted the emperor or Russ or something like that), and led a headlong rush at the gates. The Lion ignored Russ's antics, and proceeded with his existing plan. Without the Dark Angels' support, the Wolves suffered disproportionate casualties. To make matters worse, the Lion beat Russ to claiming the tyrant's head.

Russ, supposedly angry over his losses (but in actuality bitter about being upstaged), attacked the Lion. They fought to a standstill for a while, until Russ finally got over it and saw the humor in the situation, but the Lion was not amused and knocked him the feth out.

Ah ok, I was going from memory. Thanks

I thought the old feud had taken on a more ritualistic form in the present day? If the two Chapters meet somewhere facing the same enemy they'll appoint champions to fight a ritual duel in memory of the Primarchs, then go in and smash some heads. They're not mortal enemies and don't even dislike each other more than any other First Foundings, they just have a history. Seeing how the Primarchs made up it should even tie the Chapters closer together.

Spetulhu wrote:
I thought the old feud had taken on a more ritualistic form in the present day? If the two Chapters meet somewhere facing the same enemy they'll appoint champions to fight a ritual duel in memory of the Primarchs, then go in and smash some heads. They're not mortal enemies and don't even dislike each other more than any other First Foundings, they just have a history. Seeing how the Primarchs made up it should even tie the Chapters closer together.

Exactly, but the 6th Edition allies chart seems to suggest otherwise, that the bonds formed by the Primarchs are not as strong today.

I suppose the Dark Angels being an even more secretive bunch hasn't helped their relations with some other chapters, not specifically the Wolves. Are there any recent instances of conflict like with the the Black Templars where they had a Fallen captured?

Either Chapter isn't exactly close to the Ecclesiarchy or Inquisition so can't imagine it would be anything because of that.

My understanding is that there was never any bond formed between the Primarchs. The Lion is not the type to make friends.

 Omegus wrote:
My understanding is that there was never any bond formed between the Primarchs. The Lion is not the type to make friends.

After Russ healed they were supposed to have become close buddies during the period of the Scouring. As with all 40k stuff there are many contradictions, the WD article says they were, the 2nd ed Space Wolves codex says they weren't and the the 5ed says that they became friends.

The 5ed does say though that since the passing of the Primarchs the Chapters have drifted apart.

 DarthMarko wrote:

3rd was like this Lion stabs Russ after Siege of Terra when the Lion blames Russ for stopping on the way to Terra( defending some planets ). Russ is saddened by the Emperors fall and merely bares his chest to the Lion. Lion stabs him but at the last second realises what he is doing and turns the blade so Russ survives. Russ awakes to the Lion and Dorn standing over his bed with the Lion asking for forgiveness. Thats quoting WD

I thought it was the other way around - Russ wanted to rush to the Emperor's defense, while the Lion inisted that they stopped to defend/reconquer several critical planets to the Imperium on the way, causing them to arrive too late. Though the bit about Lion stabbing Russ is correct, though I recall it going something like this: Russ blames Lion for arriving too late, Lion, maddened with grief, anger and despair draws his sword and stabs him for the insult.

The irony, of course, is that it wouldn't have mattered when the two arrived, as the course of events that started with Horus lowering his shields to draw the Emp on board was triggered by the impending arrival of the Wolves and Dark Angels on Terra to relieve the Imperial forces and kick Horus' backside good and proper...

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
My understanding is that there was never any bond formed between the Primarchs. The Lion is not the type to make friends.

After Russ healed they were supposed to have become close buddies during the period of the Scouring. As with all 40k stuff there are many contradictions, the WD article says they were, the 2nd ed Space Wolves codex says they weren't and the the 5ed says that they became friends.

The 5ed does say though that since the passing of the Primarchs the Chapters have drifted apart.

Yet this flies in the face of everything we've seen from the Horus Heresy novels regarding the Lion. He doesn't even have a trusted confidant or friend among his own Legion, and his somewhat ostentatious sensibilities would probably have him looking down at a "savage" like Russ.

40K fluff is annoying.

Bran Dawri wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

3rd was like this Lion stabs Russ after Siege of Terra when the Lion blames Russ for stopping on the way to Terra( defending some planets ). Russ is saddened by the Emperors fall and merely bares his chest to the Lion. Lion stabs him but at the last second realises what he is doing and turns the blade so Russ survives. Russ awakes to the Lion and Dorn standing over his bed with the Lion asking for forgiveness. Thats quoting WD

I thought it was the other way around - Russ wanted to rush to the Emperor's defense, while the Lion inisted that they stopped to defend/reconquer several critical planets to the Imperium on the way, causing them to arrive too late. Though the bit about Lion stabbing Russ is correct, though I recall it going something like this: Russ blames Lion for arriving too late, Lion, maddened with grief, anger and despair draws his sword and stabs him for the insult.

The irony, of course, is that it wouldn't have mattered when the two arrived, as the course of events that started with Horus lowering his shields to draw the Emp on board was triggered by the impending arrival of the Wolves and Dark Angels on Terra to relieve the Imperial forces and kick Horus' backside good and proper...

You didn't read WD?
Russ, Jonson and their legions were deliberately sent far from the galactic centre by Horus, so that when the events of the Heresy started and Horus assaulted Earth they were far from the main conflict. Russ and Jonson went for Earth, losing many ships as the very Warp itself seemed to try and impede their progress. Jonson wished to head straight for Earth to aid the Emperor, however Russ refused to leave beleagured worlds to their fate and kept stopping to aid loyalist forces, much to Jonson's rage.

As such, they reached Earth but far too late; the events upon Horus' battlebarge had reached their conclusion and Russ and Jonson could only watch as Dorn teleported carrying the body of their Emperor. Dorn told them of the Emperor's last words to him, but Russ would not hear it; despondent at the Emperor's condition, Russ left his brothers and slumped before a statue of the Emperor. Jonson approached Russ and blamed him for the Emperor's status; had Russ not kept stopping they woud have arrived in time to save the Emperor. Russ, upset, told Jonson to go away and fell asleep below the statue.

There, he had a dream from the Emperor. The Emperor told him to stifle his sorrow, for now the Imperium needed the loyalty of all his brothers and their combined strength of arms if the Imperium were to survive.

Russ awoke to find Jonson standing before him, fully armoured and with sword drawn. Jonson demanded that Russ fight him; Russ merely pulled his armour apart, revealing his chest. Jonson struck, piercing Russ' primary heart, but as he struck he snapped out of his madness and turned his blade, missing Russ' secondary heart.

When Russ awoke, he was in a hospital bed, with Jonson and Dorn standing before him. Jonson begged his forgiveness; Russ gave it, and the three brothers agreed never to fight amongst themselves again, to use their legions to ensure the continuation of their Emperor's dream.

I'm not sure if that stuff applies anymore, since the Horus Heresy novels are supposedly the "definitive" source on what happened during these times.

Dark Angels are currently busy chasing down the Night Lords, and after that they will likely get held up dealing with their own issues at home. Space Wolves were misdirected to go after Prospero, and are struggling to get back since the Warp is all messed up.

Plus, it's questionable whether Primarchs have a secondary heart and very unlikely that even if they do and they were both pierced that this would be a fatal wound. I mean, Magnus basically punched Russ' chest out, and it barely slowed the guy down.

This would also mark the second time Russ didn't follow the Emperor's orders, since instead of "ensuring the continuation of the Emperor's dream" he just takes off for the Warp.

I'd be inclined to dismiss this as outdated fluff. Ugh, 40K and its loose not-really-canon is so annoying sometimes.

 Omegus wrote:
I'm not sure if that stuff applies anymore, since the Horus Heresy novels are supposedly the "definitive" source on what happened during these times.

Dark Angels are currently busy chasing down the Night Lords, and after that they will likely get held up dealing with their own issues at home. Space Wolves were misdirected to go after Prospero, and are struggling to get back since the Warp is all messed up.

Plus, it's questionable whether Primarchs have a secondary heart and very unlikely that even if they do and they were both pierced that this would be a fatal wound. I mean, Magnus basically punched Russ' chest out, and it barely slowed the guy down.

This would also mark the second time Russ didn't follow the Emperor's orders, since instead of "ensuring the continuation of the Emperor's dream" he just takes off for the Warp.

I'd be inclined to dismiss this as outdated fluff. Ugh, 40K and its loose not-really-canon is so annoying sometimes.

Hm, I' think not...you and Void_Dragon stick to the stories which suit you(read : TS PoV and constantly praising Magnus), but I' look at 40k from a wider perspective ( codex ,books and WD )...like there is 3. versions of Russ vs Magnus
1st, Russ was to escort Magnus back to terra to face daddy, but M told russ to sod off , so Russ all ready enraged with Magnus for disobeying orders , sacks Prospero. (old text it mentions )
2nd, (Collected Visions) The Emperor sent Russ to SACK IT.
3rd Horus manipulates Russ in to doing it.

and on topic - somebody pulled this theory and I backed it down with a full story...and you didn't answer me about spies in SW....again:


Truth is, like you said - in the Middle somewhere

 Omegus wrote:
I'm not sure if that stuff applies anymore, since the Horus Heresy novels are supposedly the "definitive" source on what happened during these times.

Dark Angels are currently busy chasing down the Night Lords, and after that they will likely get held up dealing with their own issues at home. Space Wolves were misdirected to go after Prospero, and are struggling to get back since the Warp is all messed up.

Plus, it's questionable whether Primarchs have a secondary heart and very unlikely that even if they do and they were both pierced that this would be a fatal wound. I mean, Magnus basically punched Russ' chest out, and it barely slowed the guy down.

This would also mark the second time Russ didn't follow the Emperor's orders, since instead of "ensuring the continuation of the Emperor's dream" he just takes off for the Warp.

I'd be inclined to dismiss this as outdated fluff. Ugh, 40K and its loose not-really-canon is so annoying sometimes.

It's not out dated until they actually have re - written this part of the story, but the Dark Angels being all the way off in the Eastern Fringe and possibly going to meet up with the Roboute at Ultramar does make this difficult.

It is still possible that they somehow meet up with the Wolves after Prospero, according to Visions the Wolves are engaged by a numerically superior fleet of the Alpha Legion, which could delay them even further along with the Warp situation.

Would be nice if there weren't instances like this but in 40k all fluff is fluff.

Which WD was this?
All I recall it really saying from memory goes something like: "afterwards, Russ was to rage against the events that conspired to keep him from his beloved Emperor in his hour of need".
Then again, GW have pretty much the worst track record for characterisations of any company that I know, so it may well be the other way around

The old fluff I remember had Horus engaging in his last gambit because the Wolves and Angels were about to descend on the traitor forces.
While he did scatter the loyalist forces across the galaxy, the Wolves and Angels together have (fluffwise) always been described as more than the sum of the parts, despite their distrust for one another, so it's not inconceivable that despite the delays, the two Legions were still much quicker to approach Terra than Horus had anticipated.

Edit: I also absolutely loathe GW's habit of completely reversing previous background stories for no good reason whatsoever.

Bran Dawri wrote:
Which WD was this?
All I recall it really saying from memory goes something like: "afterwards, Russ was to rage against the events that conspired to keep him from his beloved Emperor in his hour of need".
Then again, GW have pretty much the worst track record for characterisations of any company that I know, so it may well be the other way around

The old fluff I remember had Horus engaging in his last gambit because the Wolves and Angels were about to descend on the traitor forces.
While he did scatter the loyalist forces across the galaxy, the Wolves and Angels together have (fluffwise) always been described as more than the sum of the parts, despite their distrust for one another, so it's not inconceivable that despite the delays, the two Legions were still much quicker to approach Terra than Horus had anticipated.

Edit: I also absolutely loathe GW's habit of completely reversing previous background stories for no good reason whatsoever.

White Dwarf 233 which I am the proud owner of, solely for this background story. It also is the source of the Russ vs a Titan piece.

Bran Dawri wrote:
Which WD was this?
All I recall it really saying from memory goes something like: "afterwards, Russ was to rage against the events that conspired to keep him from his beloved Emperor in his hour of need".
Then again, GW have pretty much the worst track record for characterisations of any company that I know, so it may well be the other way around

The old fluff I remember had Horus engaging in his last gambit because the Wolves and Angels were about to descend on the traitor forces.
While he did scatter the loyalist forces across the galaxy, the Wolves and Angels together have (fluffwise) always been described as more than the sum of the parts, despite their distrust for one another, so it's not inconceivable that despite the delays, the two Legions were still much quicker to approach Terra than Horus had anticipated.

Edit: I also absolutely loathe GW's habit of completely reversing previous background stories for no good reason whatsoever.

233 -story written by William King ...Also Russ vs Titan in that number


Edit: Damn you @Rice :-)ha,ha,ha,ha you took words out of my mouth -and do you remeber how Dorn was cool back then?

Oh, William King? Pfft, totally irrelevant then.

 Omegus wrote:
Oh, William King? Pfft, totally irrelevant then.

For TS fan, maybe....for everybody else "King"....

 Pilau Rice wrote:


White Dwarf 233 which I am the proud owner of, solely for this background story. It also is the source of the Russ vs a Titan piece.

Was that released around the 3rd edition SW Codex release? Or earlier? If the former, I should have a copy myself at home, and must have misremembered. No biggie; though personality-wise I would still say the Lion is the more likely source of insisting to aid loyalist forces for strategic reasons, I can easily see Russ demanding they not abandon their comrades-in-arms for reasons of honour.