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So I'm thinking of getting a new army but I dont know what one to chose.. I got the Daemon codex and the Bood angel codex should arrive tomorrow. The Daemons have many cool models, i'd make a Tzeentch and Slaanesh army, And they are compleately diferent to what anyone else plays in our group. While the Blood Angels are similar to my Space Wolves, But still have a few models I realy like and I have realy fallen inlove with the Flesh Tearers paint scheme. So I dont know what army to get.. Could people give some strengths and weaknesses of both armies and give some tips of what army of the two you like and why?

Blood Angels are basically like taking the Vanilla codex and mixing it with the SW's codex after a fashion.

For example, Grey Hunters are considered the game's top Troops choice because they have the traditional shooting ability of plain 'ol Tactical Marines, but then get easier access to special weapons & are better at close combat to boot!
Now look at BA assault squads. They're a Troops choice, can still take those same special weapons that GH's get, have ready access to better close combat gear and trade off weaker firepower for 'free' turret upgrades on 'fast' type razorbacks! And sure, while the BA's don't get counter-attack, for a single Elites slot they can get FnP + furious assault instead.

BA's should be looked at being everything Codex: Space Marines are, but +1!
They're an easier army to learn, have alot of variety built into their list, can take one of the game's best flyers, and have very few real 'dud' units.



Now, as for Chaos Daemons! Well, for starters, they're easily the hardest army in the game to learn to play well! The screwy dividing up your army into two separite 'waves' and then rolling off with a 33% chance of getting the wrong units to start with is a massive handi-cap. Actually, if you build your list poorly enough and divide up your forces improperly, you can lose the game outright with a dice roll!
The army is also viewed as weak due to a lack of long ranged anti-tank and almost no answers to enemy flyers.

However, the army is ungodly strong in melee, boosting some of the game's best assault units like Screamers, Fiends, Bloodcrushers or the nearly impossible-to-charge-and-live 9 strong Flamer squads! (in combat itself though, Flamers are pretty poop - but throwing out 9D3 auto-hits that wound on 4+ and ignore armour means only horde units will ever think of charging you!)
While Daemons are more limited in their army selection when wanting a competitive list, those combos are still just as deadly as the other 'top tier' armies. A shooty Tzeentch focus w/a few Slaaneshy combat units makes a solid 'all comers' type of force, while an Epidemius based list with Nurgle CSM allies is just silly-good.

Daemons also allow to play a far more agressive game since your army will always deep strike into play, thus it's almost impossible for an opponent to defend their entire line before your initial strike hits home. The main problem is maintaining the momentum you build when the first half of your army drops in! No transports means you need to rely on either hitting right on top of your target/s and/or ensuring you have plenty of fast units who can chase down important targets.



In the end, I'd choose the army you think you want to build/paint most of all!

If you're looking for a strong army right away, then go BA's. If you want a strong army that's a true challenge to play well, by all means, go Daemons! (plus we're rumored to be getting a new codex within the next 8 months'ish, so there's that bonus too!)

I play Chaos IG with Demon Allies and love Demons. I have played with BA and found them very fun, but the suffer from being Space Marines (although with special rules). Regarding Demons being difficult to learn, I have to agree with that. However I would hope that would not stop you from playing with them since there is a learning curve with all armies.

Another plus for Daemons; if/when you beat-up a GK player and table them, it's one of the best moments you'll ever experience playing 40k! (even more-so when the GK player is TFG who tailors their list and still manages to lose!)

Merellin wrote:
So I'm thinking of getting a new army but I dont know what one to chose.. I got the Daemon codex and the Bood angel codex should arrive tomorrow. The Daemons have many cool models, i'd make a Tzeentch and Slaanesh army, And they are compleately diferent to what anyone else plays in our group. While the Blood Angels are similar to my Space Wolves, But still have a few models I realy like and I have realy fallen inlove with the Flesh Tearers paint scheme. So I dont know what army to get.. Could people give some strengths and weaknesses of both armies and give some tips of what army of the two you like and why?

Looks like the bases are covered here. One thing to keep in mind is that Blood Angels are space marines so are just as easy/forgiving to play as other space marines, even though their "focus" is more close combat than long ranged shooting. The only thing with Blood angels is that so many people play space marines of one sort or another already. I suggest daemons because they are much more rarely seen.

The biggest weakness in the list (the 50% split and then roll off to see which you start with) is easily addressed by building a relatively balanced force and "smartly" balancing certain types of units in each half. Don't completely stack all of your hardest hitting units in the first half and then try and win the game starting out with just a bunch of less capable lesser daemon units. I find nurgle units in both halves is a must. That gives you at least 1 or 2 units in each half that will be hard to dispose of until your reserves arrive.

The biggest thing to remember when playing daemons is that their ranged abilities are very limited with Tzeentch magics and soul grinders. Soul grinder tongue attacks are VERY good anti-vehicular attacks and a well placed deep strike and shot with one early on can put an opponent on their back foot right from the start. Everything else in the army needs to squash the enemy in close combat.

Beyond that balance is your friend. Use units from all 4 of the chaos powers and stay away from single god lists if at all possible. As a combined whole the daemons can be quite nasty on the table. When focused in a single deity they become one hit wonders that are easy to remove from their element and destroy. The staying power of nurgle, combined with the close in might of khorne, the shooting magics of tzeentch and the controlling powers of slaanesh can be tough to beat.

Anyone can succeed playing Blood angels, but you have to be a decent player to succeed consistently with Daemons. You need to be able to still perform well if the initial dice roll or later reserve rolls go against you. You need to be able to use cover effectively to get your forces into contact with the enemy without giving them free turns of shooting at you. You will also have a hard time dealing with flyers, unless you buy yourself a helltalon fighter from forge world. That will come as quite the nasty surprise for an opponent expecting flying domination. You also need to be ready to play your next game if all of your rolls go against you and your army arriving piecemeal and in the least useful order gets wiped out. It will happen playing Daemons. No way around it, really.

I have played games as daemons and gotten the 50% I wanted on the first turn *and* got the whole 2nd half of my army from reserve on turn 2. Wiped out the opponent and they couldn't stop me. I've also played games where I didn't get my prefered half of the army and none of my extra heavy hitters showed up before I was tabled by my opponent. Continually failing reserve rolls sucks. :(

I also agree that beating a current GK list is quite satisfying with Daemons these days, though I really enjoyed hosting multiple player games with my daemons on one side and my Daemonhunters/Grey knights on the other. The forever swarm of wave attacks with all lesser daemon and beast units continually returning to the battle on destruction to see how long the grey knights could last was just awesome to play out. Shame they don't play that way any more. :(

Of course if all of the comments in the thread make you nervous you may not be a true daemon player at heart. Nothing wrong with that since you really do need the right mindset to enjoy playing them.

Skriker

Thanks for the amazing replies! ^_^ With Daemons i'd go for Tzeentch with some Slaanesh, I dont like Khorne or Nurgle at all. And I'm a bit unusure about Daemons because, Well, I'm not a very good player..

I'm the worst player by far in my group and rarely win even with my Space Wolves. But then again, I play mostly for fun and want a fun match over big victories. Though getting compleately stomped into oblivion because you are a bad player is no fun..

Merellin wrote:
Thanks for the amazing replies! ^_^ With Daemons i'd go for Tzeentch with some Slaanesh, I dont like Khorne or Nurgle at all. And I'm a bit unusure about Daemons because, Well, I'm not a very good player..

I'm the worst player by far in my group and rarely win even with my Space Wolves. But then again, I play mostly for fun and want a fun match over big victories. Though getting compleately stomped into oblivion because you are a bad player is no fun..

Nah! You're not a terrible player at all, you, like myself are simply ment to not play any army that relies on armour saves my friend!

The one and only time I was ever succesful with a space marine army was back in ye olden days of 3rd edition and the Codex: Armageddon Salamanders list which made basic marines into esentially 40k 'dwarfs in power armour'. Everyone and their mothers for the most whined that "Sallies sucked" because of the lower initiative and reduced pursuit/fallback moves. So, siezing up on a challenge and realising that 'sucky space marines' couldn't be any worse than 'non-gimped space marines', I built a Salamander army... And I started winning too! Then I damn near tabled Phil Kelly's Ulthwe army with my supposidly 'sucky' Sallies!
Outside of that one instance of momentary glory however, I found that as soon as it came time to make armour saves, my army just fell over dead! Hell, at the local GW store, to everyone I became widely known as the 'Failmarines' player! (aka: ultramarines or dark angels who couldn't pass a single save!) And once the Codex: Armageddon list was replaced by the 4th edition marine codex, my beloved 'dwarfs in power armour' also joined the sad legion of retired Failmarines... (because they were no longer 'gimped marines' you see, but plain 'ol regular marines!)

So I shelved/sold most of my marines to start a new project. First came an all deep striking IG list which became a local terror, and then after 5th edition & Kill Points completely killed that army, I came to Daemons! And ever since, for some reason, I'm amazing at passing those 5++ saves with my Daemons! Perhaps it's simply Tzeentch rewarding me for finally getting on board with his grand scheme?
Who knows, but sometimes it seems that some of us simply aren't ment to play Space Marines!



A Tzeentch/Slaanesh mix is likely the most balanced type of Daemon list right now in all seriousness.

Tzeentch shooting is scary good! Yes, Pink Horrors may seem expensive if you only take them in a squad of 5 and use Bolt to hunt transports. But then, you're doing it wrong!!! Horrors in squads of 9 or more for example become terrifying infantry killers. Even those haughty space marines start to fear facing down 27+ S4 shots, and anything not in power armour is simply dead due to the pinkies Warpfire ability being ap4! Now imagine what 12, or 15 or god forbid that magical 18 strong unit can dish out in a shooting phase! Oh, and never forget to take The Changeling in one of your squds... For his paltry cost, he's halariously good fun!
Then you have those lovely Flamers. Jump infantry who not only have higher BS and Warpfire, thus giving them a serious threat range, but their real jewel is Breath of Chaos which is a template attack that always wounds on 4's and ignores armour saves!

Combine those two main infantry units together, and you're got a super mid-range shooting game that can even take on the likes of GK's in terms of sheer dice output.

For combat and speed, you've got access to Fiends who are true 'kill all-comers' thanks to a boatload of attacks, S5 and rending. Work them alongside the newly updated Screamers who can munch down on armoured units with their 'armourbane' attacks or else they can kill termies and other 2+ saves as they have a decent number of S5/ap2 attacks vs non-vehicles.

Round out your force with things like some Tzeentch Heralds on chariots w/Bolt to quickly get side/rear shots on armour, Princes which can just crush enemy walkers and small elite units, Seekers who are basically like 'mini-Fiends', Slaanesh Heralds who can use the Pavane of Slaanesh ability to bunch-up enemy units, (perfect for then hitting with Breath!), Keepers of Secrets who are almost as killy as Bloodthirsters AND can be upgraded with fun abilities like Transfixing Gaze or 'hit-and-run'... Or else the new Slaaneshy chariots which while made of paper armour, hit like a frieght train on steroids! (well, the Exalted Chariot does since it can get a potential 4D6 HoW hits which can also rend! )

Making a fun yet competitive Daemon army with just Tzeentch & Slaanesh isn't too hard, and it'll really throw your regular mates for a loop if they've never seen a Daemonarmy in action before!

I wouldn't go daemons then. If you don't like nurgle or khorne AT ALL it's like hating half your army? And only having half the choice!

You must be making some serious mistakes to lose with Space wolves, they're considered one of the most overpowered armies in the game!

But seriously, if you can't love to learn nurgle I'd quit whilst your ahead. T5 with a 5++ and 5+ FNP for just 15 pts is great! And not to mention wounding ANYTHING in cc on a 4+ is just awesome the new models look pretty sweet too


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And I wouldn't say your doing it wrong if you take pink horrors in squads of 5 :S another 4 horrors on top of that is is 68 pts! Now.... How many flamers will that get me

Well, with the Daemons I just like Tzeentch and Slaanesh best.. If I pick Daemons, I'm likely gonna get Chaos Space Marines with Thousand Sons as allies. For Khorne and Nurgle, I dont like their models much. Bloodcrushers arent too bad, I dont like Nuglings, Plaguebearers or Bloodletters models, I dont like the Beast of Nurgle, Flesh Hounds I'm unsure of.. While the Tzeentch and Slaanesh models I realy like most of them.

Nurgle is my least favorite Chaos God. In order my favorites are Tzeentch, Slaanesh, Khorne, Nurgle. With Nurgle beeing FAAAAAR down on the bottom of the skyscraper and Khorne in the middle while Tzeentch and Slaanesh are in the penthouse.

Merellin wrote:
Well, with the Daemons I just like Tzeentch and Slaanesh best.. If I pick Daemons, I'm likely gonna get Chaos Space Marines with Thousand Sons as allies. For Khorne and Nurgle, I dont like their models much. Bloodcrushers arent too bad, I dont like Nuglings, Plaguebearers or Bloodletters models, I dont like the Beast of Nurgle, Flesh Hounds I'm unsure of.. While the Tzeentch and Slaanesh models I realy like most of them.

Nurgle is my least favorite Chaos God. In order my favorites are Tzeentch, Slaanesh, Khorne, Nurgle. With Nurgle beeing FAAAAAR down on the bottom of the skyscraper and Khorne in the middle while Tzeentch and Slaanesh are in the penthouse.

Don't worry, you won't be gimping yourself if you don't take any Khorne or Nurgle units.
Sure, Plaguebearers are good at sitting on objectives and they're hard to shift, but then so are Horrors due to their better 4++ save. They're not as hard to kill as the Plaguies, but they can still soak up a silly amount of punishment.
And yes, Bloodcurshers are one of the scariest combat units in the game, but then hitting a unit with a combo charge of Fiends + Screamers will achieve the same results as well!

Another option is to simply play 'counts as'. So for example, if you want say a unit of 5 or 6 Plaguebearers to camp on an objective, why not just convert a Tzeentchian themed model and rename it something new?! Or else if say you want to include a large unit of Bloodletters for slicing & dicing 'oodles of MEQ's, why not convert them to look like armoured Daemonettes or animated suits of burning armour for a Tzeentchian proxy?!

The best thing about Daemons imho are the endless conversion opportunities!

Are you looking at Blood Angels / Flesh Tearers because you like the rules or the imagery? If it's the latter, you could play a lookalike army... that has fallen to Chaos. Perhaps a company of Blood Ravens dabbled a little too close to the line and something in their geneseed's history was awoken...

Then you field a lightly converted SM army using CSM with Daemon Allies!

Blood Angels and Khorne demons should be allies being they both worship the same god.

I think you underestimate khorne.
It's big units of brutal combat. Only units with armour save, of a marine, with a power weapon at S5 on a charge.
I know the furious charge nerf of 6th ed hurt, but like tzeentch pours out shooting dice, khorne pours out the combat.

And he seems to generate more table fear than other gods.
Even as a meat shield they are a real threat.

Part of a demons list is letting the right units get shot up worst.
Using fateweaver and a bloodthirster together is a huge target so most of your other stuff can not be dead.

Unless you run a mono tzeentch 1st wave you will have stuff that stands and takes it for a turn.
Deployment also plays a big part in this.
And I think is where nurgle comes king. Throwing them at the front is great fun before everything else shows up without to many wounds in it.

It's why the list split is so important.
And why having tzeentch arrive in both halfs of your list is vital. You don't want everything to be shot up, cause those saves only go so far.

Plus they are in general way more fun than marines. Faith in the gods can have some madness dice roll moments.
Even fear can give a chuckle once or twice.

27 screamers.

That is all.

Saw it come 1st in a tournament

I know fateweaver and bloodthirster is a common combo, but I made a 1500 point list and if I added fateweaver I'd still have quite a minimal list for that amount of points 0.o I know fateweaver is Awesome, but I prefer a herald or 2 I think?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/471683.page


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And how do you define a well rounded first wave?

Fateweaver is really strong but totally not needed for a great list. Honestly, I am leaning away from Flying Circus builds and back towards Tzeentch heralds on chariots. It was nice to be able to fill 50% of your army with MCs since Fiends were pretty much the only unit worth taking other than the MCs but now that Flamers and Screamers are awesome it is hard to justify the points.

That said, I love MCs so I will continue to run 3 at 1250 and 4 at 1500. It isn't quite as effective and struggles against anybody that can put out a lot of skyfire shots, but it looks damn good. Heck, I sometimes run Fatey at 1000.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Another plus for Daemons; if/when you beat-up a GK player and table them, it's one of the best moments you'll ever experience playing 40k! (even more-so when the GK player is TFG who tailors their list and still manages to lose!)

Don't forget to make trophies so TFG remembers for a long time.

For Blood Angels I realy like the Flesh Tearers paint scheme so everyone told me to make Blood Angels cus the Flesh tearers are a BA successor chapter. And the main thing I like about BA is the Librarian Dreadnought and the Sanguinary Guard. Dont know the rules for either one yet though, The codex dident show up today so I'm hoping ti will arrive tomorrow.. With BA I can ally them with my space wolves too if BA have anything to offer SW.

For Daemons, I can also make a allied CSM force with a Thousand Sons force. For that I'd wait for the new CSM codex though.