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 TBD wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 TBD wrote:
Archaon is a special character and still considered one of the best sculpts in GW's entire line by many people.

Quality of sculpt shouldn't be a factor at all - there's some terrible sculpts at premium prices too.

I agree, but when perception of value for money comes into play it does play an important part.

Perception of value dictates that these are models/toys. PLASTIC models/toys. Most at only two inches high, and with as much material as a marble in them. While they are very finely made, a lot of them aren't worth the price tag put on them. Craftsmen who sell their wares on the streets don't charge the price GW does. But GW gets away with it because they are a company, and people still buy their products. Whether it makes sense or not is irrelevant, since they get away with it, but then people are always enablers.

I just bought a 2750 Point Necron army brand new with Codex for £321 delivered. That's as big an army as I'm ever likely to need.

That's a lot of money, but not as bad as it can be (Imperial Guard) and the fact is that I was unable to realistically collect the army I want (blob guard) because of price - it's just too daunting to me and would take too long to get the money together but I compromised.

I think anyone can hobby within their own limits easily enough.

Having said that, I do feel the urge to get out of the hobby altogether now and then but it's usually at times like this when GW release something I have no interest in and the rumours don't excite me

 heartserenade wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
When one of those cheaper companies makes a model which isn't ugly, bad proportions, visually 'wrong' or all around uninteresting, I will buy them. So far, the only models which actually look good either all have similar prices as GW or are more than GW.

Corvus Belli's infantry models are sold 8.75 euros each (that's roughly $11). Looking at GW's website, most single infantry metal/finecast models are priced $15 or above. And CB has arguably one of the best sculpts right now, and at the very least their females look like actual females and not men with cleavages.

Dark Sword miniatures also has fine sculpts (especially their George R.R. Martin line), and they're selling it $10 or less each piece.

Both lines are as visually appealing (or more so) than GW's, and they both charge less.

http://www.darkswordminiatures.com/mainwebsite_html/store.html
Let's see... Xmas Honey Badger, Bewbtastic Barbarian chick... Grim Reaper Frog. Uninspired generic animals. I am straining to find a single miniature on that page which is visually interesting and I would want to paint for the sake of painting let alone being a model i would use in any form of gaming.

http://www.corvusbelli.com/en/02_tiendainf_rtdo.asp?IDNOTICIA=353
40$ for 6 28mm infantry men is not a bad price but not drastically cheaper than PP or GW or other parties out there. It is on average lower... but 11$ per singal man-sized model when I can get an orc or goblin for 9-15$ US from GW I really don't see a huge difference or why I would strain my neck looking towards Corvus Belli unless I was interested in their fluff.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440078a&rootCatGameStyle=
Infantry heroes for 9-15$ us

http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/minions/solos
Infantry characters for 10-16$

Being in the US... I get no benefit about buying Euro models... and since I don't live in Australia, I don't really care about thier prices. They are free to shop elsewhere.

The people who make excellent figures which I am interested in already make them at a price which is in the middle of what EVERYONE ELSE already charges. I am not going to buy inferior sculpts or uninteresting good sculpts from other lines because I might save 1$.

I will also pay a premium when there is a model I really love like much of the AoW line.http://www.avatars-of-war.com/eng/web/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&rscroll=0&id=74&Itemid=134

If I buy a single model... how much someone else needs to play a game has no impact on me the same way what someone in another country pays has no impact on me. I am not going to buy poorly sculpted or generally uninteresting models, especially ones which don't fit with the gaming systems I play or models I collect because there is maybe a 1$ per difference.

The comparisons are getting ridiculous to be honest... besides since when the quality of one mini is exclusively dependant of personal tastes? You can only avaluate if a miniature has quality or not if you look at the sum of all parts of that makes a mini ( the sculp ittself/ the design and the cast) These are palpable things that dont require personal tastes. Avaluating the quality of one mini by basing it on your totally random personal tastes is irrelevant.

nkelsch wrote:
[http://www.corvusbelli.com/en/02_tiendainf_rtdo.asp?IDNOTICIA=353
40$ for 6 28mm infantry men is not a bad price but not drastically cheaper than PP or GW or other parties out there. It is on average lower... but 11$ per singal man-sized model when I can get an orc or goblin for 9-15$ US from GW I really don't see a huge difference or why I would strain my neck looking towards Corvus Belli unless I was interested in their fluff.

The difference is that you buy that 6 men Infinity box + 5 or 6 more blisters and you have the fully playable & competitive equivalent of a 2000 pts 40K force.

You basically spend about 90,- euros (often even less) on ANY faction in the game, in almost any combination of blisters/boxes/mini's you like, and you have everything you need (to play the equivalent of 2000pts 40K). Both GW and PP can't say the same. They both have good starter kit deals, but those are only those specific few sets.

If you like a futuristic urban warfare skirmish game I would really look into this game. Imo Corvus Belli has hit the jackpot with this on all fronts. They offer very good value for your money.

 NAVARRO wrote:
The comparisons are getting ridiculous to be honest... besides since when the quality of one mini is exclusively dependant of personal tastes? You can only avaluate if a miniature has quality or not if you look at the sum of all parts of that makes a mini ( the sculp ittself/ the design and the cast) These are palpable things that dont require personal tastes. Avaluating the quality of one mini by basing it on your totally random personal tastes is irrelevant.

But... even if I don't compare the quality... they all cost about the same anyways... so why not buy what people want to buy based upon their personal tastes?

The reason people haven't ditched GW to starve in a ditch and buy these other models is because people like GW models, GW games and GW fluff and are not drawn to these alternatives.

If you see these models as nothing more than expensive tokens, then go for the cheapest models you can find. Knock yourself out. When you boil it down, per model almost all the companies cost similar ammounts and GW is in the middle of the pack with most of the big model producers with many small premium figure companies and 3rd party limited runs being more, and people intending to provide mass cheap token-based models being less.

This idea that somehow the number of models needed to play a game changes a 12$ model to be cheaper than another 12$ model is still not valid.

People seem to think that the statement "If you don't like the costs or can't afford it, don't play, do something else" to be unreasonable.......I really don't understand why.

There's a whole host of things I'd love to do, Formula 1 racing, 50/50 Shares in the Playboy mansion, maybe a trip or two to the outer atmosphere curtesy of Virgin.....but heres the bind, I can't really afford to do it.

I could lament the fact, maybe go onto forums dedicated to those pastimes and complain about the insane price of entry and ongoing costs to stay in the "game".......

Ultimately you have to realise that this hobby, like many others, isn't an "every-man" hobby, people who wish to partake must decide to do so either based on an unlimited income, or based on the sacrifice of other financial outlets.....Warhammer and GW games in general may once have been touted as products for the masses, well, maybe you didn't get the memo, it's as elitist as every other highend, high cost hobby on the planet.

Bottom line is pay up, or go elsewhere! The prices arn't going to drop, and when you think about it, why should they. If you can't afford to spend £20 on five miniatures GW doesn't want to know you, same as the expensive Golf club in your area, if you can't spend £1000+ on golf shoes don't even think about stepping on the green.

 TBD wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
[http://www.corvusbelli.com/en/02_tiendainf_rtdo.asp?IDNOTICIA=353
40$ for 6 28mm infantry men is not a bad price but not drastically cheaper than PP or GW or other parties out there. It is on average lower... but 11$ per singal man-sized model when I can get an orc or goblin for 9-15$ US from GW I really don't see a huge difference or why I would strain my neck looking towards Corvus Belli unless I was interested in their fluff.

The difference is that you buy that 6 men Infinity box + 5 or 6 more blisters and you have the fully playable & competitive equivalent of a 2000 pts 40K force.

You basically spend about 90,- euros (often even less) on ANY faction in the game, in almost any combination of blisters/boxes/mini's you like, and you have everything you need (to play the equivalent of 2000pts 40K). Both GW and PP can't say the same. They both have good starter kit deals, but those are only those specific few sets.

If you like a futuristic urban warfare skirmish game I would really look into this game. Imo Corvus Belli has hit the jackpot with this on all fronts. They offer very good value for your money.

1. Apocalyptic human future genre does zero for me... and the models are uninteresting. Personally, I like the 40k universe and I like fantasy models, especially single models which are neat, and can be combined with models from other lines for RPG games.

2. If I want a skirmish game or a low-model count game, I will need a game others actually play. There isn't even a store near me who sells Corvus Belli which makes it hard for me to 'pay where I play'. Besides... I prefer Bloodbowl or other board games for low-model count.

3. Value for my money? I have literally thousands of Minis... a 12$ model doesn't become cheaper than another 12$ money simply because the game requires 12 models vs 120 models. There is no savings, no change in value and no deal... especially for a game I can't buy locally, that no one plays and is totally uninteresting. An AoW model which costs twice as much has more value because it fills multiple needs for me as both a WH Fantasy model, a RPG dungeon hero or villain, as well as nice shelf eyecandy and is an excellent sculpt. How is generic woman with butt in air on a future bike good value for my money?

I can see no different in the price per mini and that is all that matters. This idea of cost of entry to game systems is a red herring as not all minis are purchased for gaming systems and sometimes they are bought per mini. If you value things differently, go ahead... but that hardly makes things cheaper for everyone.

nkelsch wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
The comparisons are getting ridiculous to be honest... besides since when the quality of one mini is exclusively dependant of personal tastes? You can only avaluate if a miniature has quality or not if you look at the sum of all parts of that makes a mini ( the sculp ittself/ the design and the cast) These are palpable things that dont require personal tastes. Avaluating the quality of one mini by basing it on your totally random personal tastes is irrelevant.

But... even if I don't compare the quality... they all cost about the same anyways... so why not buy what people want to buy based upon their personal tastes?
.

They all cost about the same? Really? Companies like hasslefree, reaper among others do seem to produce high quality sculpts at cheaper prices to me... or since they are cheaper they are as you say "inferior sculpts"? or because they are not "visually interesting" to You personally they are auto excluded from the discussion?

Not to buy what you want? That makes no sense to the point Im addressing.

Me personally? I can spend 100 euros, as I did, on one 28mm if the quality is there. I also dont have any tabus regarding labels or brands.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:


I can see no different in the price per mini and that is all that matters. This idea of cost of entry to game systems is a red herring as not all minis are purchased for gaming systems and sometimes they are bought per mini. If you value things differently, go ahead... but that hardly makes things cheaper for everyone.

Its cheaper for infinity players... and thats the diference!

 Delephont wrote:
People seem to think that the statement "If you don't like the costs or can't afford it, don't play, do something else" to be unreasonable.......I really don't understand why.

There's a whole host of things I'd love to do, Formula 1 racing, 50/50 Shares in the Playboy mansion, maybe a trip or two to the outer atmosphere curtesy of Virgin.....but heres the bind, I can't really afford to do it.

I could lament the fact, maybe go onto forums dedicated to those pastimes and complain about the insane price of entry and ongoing costs to stay in the "game".......

Ultimately you have to realise that this hobby, like many others, isn't an "every-man" hobby, people who wish to partake must decide to do so either based on an unlimited income, or based on the sacrifice of other financial outlets.....Warhammer and GW games in general may once have been touted as products for the masses, well, maybe you didn't get the memo, it's as elitist as every other highend, high cost hobby on the planet.

Bottom line is pay up, or go elsewhere! The prices arn't going to drop, and when you think about it, why should they. If you can't afford to spend £20 on five miniatures GW doesn't want to know you, same as the expensive Golf club in your area, if you can't spend £1000+ on golf shoes don't even think about stepping on the green.

Well, I suppose the point would be that many of us remember when this was not the case. GW paints itself as the only way in the miniature wargaming hobby, while at the same time pricing out a pretty high percentage of kids who will therefore never get to try or experience it.

Sure there are other wargames out there, but in the UK at least the FLGS is only just starting to make it's presence known again. The chances are a lot of kids will go into a GW store, have a really fun intro game, tug at their parents shirt sleeve in eager hope and then be told "you must be joking" after they have totalled up the costs.

That to me, and I don't care what else you say, makes me rather sad about the whole situation. And ultimately in terms of the wider industry there will be less fresh blood coming into it, which is good for absolutely no-one.

 Delephont wrote:
People seem to think that the statement "If you don't like the costs or can't afford it, don't play, do something else" to be unreasonable.......I really don't understand why.



Bottom line is pay up, or go elsewhere! The prices arn't going to drop, and when you think about it, why should they. If you can't afford to spend £20 on five miniatures GW doesn't want to know you, same as the expensive Golf club in your area, if you can't spend £1000+ on golf shoes don't even think about stepping on the green.

Bottom line is the only reasonable parallel that you can make between golf and 40k is that both golf balls and finecast have holes in it... the rest is just ridiculous... Funny how some of you do seem to embrace the fallacy that these kits are some kind of premium thing or activity... I guess GW gospel did really bend some minds into believing in that nonsense.

The prices are mental imo, i've bought everything off ebay so far and had some great deals.

I

 NAVARRO wrote:
Bottom line is the only reasonable parallel that you can make between golf and 40k is that both golf balls and finecast have holes in it... the rest is just ridiculous... Funny how some of you do seem to embrace the fallacy that these kits are some kind of premium thing or activity... I guess GW gospel did really bend some minds into believing in that nonsense.

I perceive it as premium, and not with regards to because it's expensive (which all hobbies are). The kits are high quality. Yes there have been issues such as finecast, but on the whole GWs products cannot be said to be 'meh' in their quality. Yes they are also expensive, but if you actually look into the production costs etc etc then you see why that is.

flonky wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
Bottom line is the only reasonable parallel that you can make between golf and 40k is that both golf balls and finecast have holes in it... the rest is just ridiculous... Funny how some of you do seem to embrace the fallacy that these kits are some kind of premium thing or activity... I guess GW gospel did really bend some minds into believing in that nonsense.

I perceive it as premium, and not with regards to because it's expensive (which all hobbies are). The kits are high quality. Yes there have been issues such as finecast, but on the whole GWs products cannot be said to be 'meh' in their quality. Yes they are also expensive, but if you actually look into the production costs etc etc then you see why that is.

On the whole you have both high quality and the lowest quality on the market ( FC)... that IMO does not make a High quality product overall. Production costs the only reason of the prices? I dont think so my friend... there are more things on the table ( and one of them is the " we are the ferrari" stance)

You say high quality, but compared to what? If GW are correct in that the majority of people buying their stuff don't play, then maybe they should be compared to display models. In which case comparisons with many other fantasy and military model companies can be made. And there are many companies doing far more impressive things with resin and plastic kits than GW offer. And these companies sell to adults as requiring an adult level of skill, and they still don't have all the nonsense problems that Finecast has when GW know they are selling largely to an age group of people that will be inexperienced modellers.

Actually, trying to explain their prices as being due to production costs, hmm I don't think so. They aren't that high, most of GW's overheads result from propping up their retail arm full of shops in city centres. Like so many manufactured goods, the cost of production is low in the final produced goods, even though they are still made in the UK. Though they did try to make a move into production in China all the same.

Also they are the biggest wargames company around and should benefit from economy of scale regarding manufacturing costs, yet apart from some very small premium companies (Studio McVey), their models are all top prices. While they charge premium prices I really don't see GW as a premium product overall because there's so many other people that have been doing better for longer. Don't get me wrong, they are good, but all this 'premium' stuff is overstating it a bit.

 Delephont wrote:
People seem to think that the statement "If you don't like the costs or can't afford it, don't play, do something else" to be unreasonable.......I really don't understand why.

There's a whole host of things I'd love to do, Formula 1 racing, 50/50 Shares in the Playboy mansion, maybe a trip or two to the outer atmosphere curtesy of Virgin.....but heres the bind, I can't really afford to do it.

I could lament the fact, maybe go onto forums dedicated to those pastimes and complain about the insane price of entry and ongoing costs to stay in the "game".......

Ultimately you have to realise that this hobby, like many others, isn't an "every-man" hobby, people who wish to partake must decide to do so either based on an unlimited income, or based on the sacrifice of other financial outlets.....Warhammer and GW games in general may once have been touted as products for the masses, well, maybe you didn't get the memo, it's as elitist as every other highend, high cost hobby on the planet.

Bottom line is pay up, or go elsewhere! The prices arn't going to drop, and when you think about it, why should they. If you can't afford to spend £20 on five miniatures GW doesn't want to know you, same as the expensive Golf club in your area, if you can't spend £1000+ on golf shoes don't even think about stepping on the green.

I do agree with this, trust me there are a lot more expensive and worse 'hobbies' out there. Its not just the cost of the models for me, its also the social aspect, ive only just got back into it and already met a few cool people, its a way to use my brain which even with running my own companies its not exactly hard for me, and painting converting etc. I used to play 2nd ed when I was about 14, so 15 years ago and I stopped then as it was too expensive I have thought about getting back into it a few times but didnt spend the time going to gaming clubs to see what they are like, now I have and its prompted me to start collecting a army. I have been reading the BL HH books for the past year or more though and with the new FW HH book coming out that has tipped it in the favour of starting again.

This weekend alone Ive spent over 400pound on models, all of them core troops or armour plus 2 box sets ive still yet to buy dreads or Land raiders so thats another 100. And my oringal plan was to do a 30k RG army using FW bits so that will be next on the list after the 30k book comes out, yes its quite a bit of money (GBP by the way) but why not, I plan to at least have a game a week, most probably two so I should get my moneys worth out of them in time and enjoyment, if not I am sure I will be able to ebay them for a resonable amount.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Production costs the only reason of the prices? I dont think so my friend... there are more things on the table ( and one of them is the " we are the ferrari" stance)

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Actually, trying to explain their prices as being due to production costs, hmm I don't think so. They aren't that high, most of GW's overheads result from propping up their retail arm full of shops in city centres. Like so many manufactured goods, the cost of production is low in the final produced goods, even though they are still made in the UK. Though they did try to make a move into production in China all the same.

Read my post again. Production etc etc. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I didn't mean just production costs. Anyways, read GW financial report. Their profit margin is about average for a business their size. Perhaps they could be doing business more efficiently, but the whole idea of them making sky-high profits is a myth.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
You say high quality, but compared to what? If GW are correct in that the majority of people buying their stuff don't play, then maybe they should be compared to display models. In which case comparisons with many other fantasy and military model companies can be made. And there are many companies doing far more impressive things with resin and plastic kits than GW offer. And these companies sell to adults as requiring an adult level of skill, and they still don't have all the nonsense problems that Finecast has when GW know they are selling largely to an age group of people that will be inexperienced modellers.

Also they are the biggest wargames company around and should benefit from economy of scale regarding manufacturing costs, yet apart from some very small premium companies (Studio McVey), their models are all top prices. While they charge premium prices I really don't see GW as a premium product overall because there's so many other people that have been doing better for longer. Don't get me wrong, they are good, but all this 'premium' stuff is overstating it a bit.

GW caters to young and adult, and people really into the modelling aspect and those who just want to game ASAP. So I feel it is a tad unfair to compare to display model companies that cater to a different crowd.

I guess the whole idea of what is premium is so subjective, anyway. It depends on a variety of factors such as income. Some people think warhammer is expensive, some see it as peanuts. Some think it is good quality, some not, for various subjective reasons.

I will tell something that is not subjective for sure... Wargamming is not expensive or a premium hobby... Its a peoples game and anyone who has time and money to think on hobbies ( many unfortunatly are on the limiar of poverty) can have fun with this.

Well I was mostly arguing that the models are premium, but whatever.

What does 'peoples game' mean?

Oh look. its this thread again.

Kidding aside, it is ridiculous some of the stuff GW sells. I don't know how they think they get away with it, or if they even do. I cant remember its exact name, but a vampire count units, blood knights(?) cost a bleedin £60. 60. QUID. Its ridiculous.

flonky wrote:
Well I was mostly arguing that the models are premium, but whatever.

What does 'peoples game' mean?

I could post some pics of the models you call premium that would scare the most lazy & incompetent caster in the industry
It's a open game/activity that can be played by anyone that wishes to, can be shared by all ages and by all familly and more importantly to this topic its not something limited to some self entitled elite with deep pockets...

Actually you should be happy with my argument because I'm not even comparing GW stuff with the display models industry

nkelsch wrote:


1. Apocalyptic human future genre does zero for me... and the models are uninteresting. Personally, I like the 40k universe and I like fantasy models, especially single models which are neat, and can be combined with models from other lines for RPG games.

2. If I want a skirmish game or a low-model count game, I will need a game others actually play. There isn't even a store near me who sells Corvus Belli which makes it hard for me to 'pay where I play'. Besides... I prefer Bloodbowl or other board games for low-model count.

3. Value for my money? I have literally thousands of Minis... a 12$ model doesn't become cheaper than another 12$ money simply because the game requires 12 models vs 120 models. There is no savings, no change in value and no deal... especially for a game I can't buy locally, that no one plays and is totally uninteresting. An AoW model which costs twice as much has more value because it fills multiple needs for me as both a WH Fantasy model, a RPG dungeon hero or villain, as well as nice shelf eyecandy and is an excellent sculpt. How is generic woman with butt in air on a future bike good value for my money?

I can see no different in the price per mini and that is all that matters. This idea of cost of entry to game systems is a red herring as not all minis are purchased for gaming systems and sometimes they are bought per mini. If you value things differently, go ahead... but that hardly makes things cheaper for everyone.

It was just a friendly heads up towards a very good product & game. That is why I said if...

If you don't like it that is obviously fine and you can go buy whatever floats your boat. Maybe you like miniatures of pig-men in bikinis who shoot kayfabe lightning rods out of their arses and consider those the best value for your money. That is all cool because my initial point was that something is good value for your money as long as you consider it so.

Infinity's setting is not post apocalyptic btw, and good job picking the horrible Kum Biker(s) as an example

About the 3rd point though, nobody ever said a $12 model becomes cheaper than another $12 model, but if one $12 model does a whole lot more for you in a game than the other, then that first model makes the game cheaper and thus gives you more for your $$$. We are not talking about model vs model, but what a model is within a game system. It matters quite a lot if you need, say, five $12,- models or (the equivalent of) thirty of them.
If you want to say that models should be judged 1 on 1 because people buy them for collecting purposes instead of gaming-system purposes then that is fine too, but until proven otherwise that is the exception rather than the norm. The majority is still bought with it's intended gaming purpose in mind, and this entire discussion is mostly about GW's prices, and GW happens to push large armies full of huge regiments of expensive miniatures upon us. These discussions are always about GW's prices and GW's prices compared to other companies' prices. In that regard the value the model has within the gaming system should indeed be thé #1 way to look at it, as that is the way the majority of gamers will look at it when determining what they deem fair pricing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
If GW are correct in that the majority of people buying their stuff don't play, then maybe they should be compared to display models.

I really believe that GW is only saying this because it suits their agenda and makes it easier to counter price-decision critics.

How the hell does GW know who plays and who doesn't? They can't sufficiently register who buys what and how often and what it ends up getting used for.

nkelsch wrote:

http://www.darkswordminiatures.com/mainwebsite_html/store.html
Let's see... Xmas Honey Badger, Bewbtastic Barbarian chick... Grim Reaper Frog. Uninspired generic animals. I am straining to find a single miniature on that page which is visually interesting and I would want to paint for the sake of painting let alone being a model i would use in any form of gaming.

All the while ignoring these, the minis I was describing in my previous post btw.:

http://www.corvusbelli.com/en/02_tiendainf_rtdo.asp?IDNOTICIA=353
40$ for 6 28mm infantry men is not a bad price but not drastically cheaper than PP or GW or other parties out there. It is on average lower... but 11$ per singal man-sized model when I can get an orc or goblin for 9-15$ US from GW I really don't see a huge difference or why I would strain my neck looking towards Corvus Belli unless I was interested in their fluff.

But you do need to admit that a) they are cheaper and b) they are, objectively, high quality sculpts that would require great skill to create.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440078a&rootCatGameStyle=
Infantry heroes for 9-15$ us

I don't see $9 models. They're $9.90, basically $10.

Did you notice too that the $9.90 models are smaller infantry a.k.a. goblins?

And the average GW infantry model costs? http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440271a&rootCatGameStyle=

Being in the US... I get no benefit about buying Euro models... and since I don't live in Australia, I don't really care about thier prices. They are free to shop elsewhere.

And being in the Philippines, I don't benefit from anything at all. The point still stands: you were pointing out the cheaper models are lesser in quality and I pointed out that there are quality models which are cheaper.

If I buy a single model... how much someone else needs to play a game has no impact on me the same way what someone in another country pays has no impact on me. I am not going to buy poorly sculpted or generally uninteresting models, especially ones which don't fit with the gaming systems I play or models I collect because there is maybe a 1$ per difference.

That wasn't the point. That's your personal taste. My point was other companies sell models on par or in higher quality (especially now that there's Finecast, but that's another matter) with GW, and yet they charge less.

And when has Infinity become post-apocalyptic? At the very best it's as post-apocalyptic as Appleseed, and nothing says post-apocalyptic as a pristine city that looks like this:



You can imagine all the healthy, well-adjusted zombies living there or something.

And all I see is a bunch of bland, boring generic sculpts costing 1-2$ less than GW and PP, and then I see deeply flawed sculpts from mantic costing much much less. Then I see amazing models from AoW costing 1-2$ more than GW and PP.

And all of them are pretty close in price... So I should buy what appeals opposed to somehow calling everything overpriced because one line has a few models which I don't want for less than GW.

Everyone's minis cost about the same. And telling people who mostly play fantasy and 40k and telling them to buy cheaper historical and Appleseed (whatever that is) models doesn't help. That is like telling someone who is trying to buy a 2000$ bike that it is too expensive and they should buy a 1000$ riding lawnmower because they are both forms of transportation even though the person has no grass to mow and they explicitly want to ride a bike.

flonky wrote:
GW caters to young and adult, and people really into the modelling aspect and those who just want to game ASAP. So I feel it is a tad unfair to compare to display model companies that cater to a different crowd.

Just sounds like people trying to have it both ways, in my opinion...GW models are high-quality display pieces when people bitch about prices, and gaming pieces when people complain about the lack of detail when compared to real display models. : \

There just isn't any real way to defend their prices, in my opinion. As far as gaming models go they're decent enough, but really, models are models, doesn't really matter what they're used for...so if I'm paying upwards of $80 for a tank it better damn-well be the best fething tank I've ever bought. And they're not...I can go to another model manufacturer, get a tank that has higher-quality components and an insane amount of detail that makes GW's best offerings look like the child's toys most people see them for, and end up paying about the same or less for it.

True, those other models aren't designed to be played with, they're purely for display...which, if you ask me, means GW should charge more realistic prices for their models to make up for the sacrifice in detail they have to make in order for them to be practical enough to game with. No one is forcing GW to charge $80 for a tank, so how is it "unfair" for me to compare them to a similar product? It's actually a much better comparison than the people comparing the "GW Hobby" to video gaming or yacht racing.

nkelsch wrote:
And all I see is a bunch of bland, boring generic sculpts costing 1-2$ less than GW and PP, and then I see deeply flawed sculpts from mantic costing much much less. Then I see amazing models from AoW costing 1-2$ more than GW and PP.

And all of them are pretty close in price... So I should buy what appeals opposed to somehow calling everything overpriced because one line has a few models which I don't want for less than GW.

Everyone's minis cost about the same. And telling people who mostly play fantasy and 40k and telling them to buy cheaper historical and Appleseed (whatever that is) models doesn't help. That is like telling someone who is trying to buy a 2000$ bike that it is too expensive and they should buy a 1000$ riding lawnmower because they are both forms of transportation even though the person has no grass to mow and they explicitly want to ride a bike.

Did you not get the, "need more," part of the argument? It's much more like needing three of those $2000 bikes compared to just the one $2000 bike that does just as much as those 3 other bikes combined.

Just because you don't like the models or background subjectively doesn't mean there won't be people who do (who doesn't know about Game of Thrones now anyways?); plus no one is twisting your arm to go out and buy models you don't like or want, but its a lil hard to argue over prices of models and what they do in-game or quality wise when you're only basing it on that you like Warhammer and don't like other Fantasy/Sci-fi

Yeah...

GW went to plastic-resin and increased the costs by 20%,

Mantic, Reaper and others replaced metal with plastic-resin and reduced they costs, sometimes by 50% (or more).

So, why in the hell i keep buying GW?

I like those space orkz, that is the only reason. But GW is nonsense...

Personally I really like the look of Dark Sword's stuff, since I was given books like this, and this to look at as a kid. I like that classic fantasy style.

I'm really pleased that everyone has stuck the issues without descending into a purile argument.

I always have a problem with the attitude of "If you don't like it, buy something else" or "the hobby is expensive get over yourself". Well I have to say no, on both counts because this acceptance of what is going on is akin to being an easily led sheep. GW has increased the prices year on year, regardless of financial circumstances, FINECAST has acted like a springboard for a further inflation busting price hike. My own take on this is that the current Executive Board and specifically Mr Kirby are lining their pockets handsomely. This is the fundamental problem of a Company that has generated such affection from it's fanbase, that when it goes Corporate, well the bottomline becomes Share price/investors and not the fanbase and to some degree not the products.

I believe GW is the only Model/Wargaming Company that is floated on a stock exchange, and for such a small customer base, we have to support a relatively large Corporate footprint which is expensive all round.



GW Share price has been a steadily rising. Think about the cost of the GW Rhino model, think of the cost of the mould then think how many they have sold, the Rhino is one of the top Cash cows.
The cost of Digital Editions despite the low overheads of such items, is another example of rampant profit margins. There will be a definite cut-off, the price rises cannot increase indefinitely, the company does not need the price Increases, it's profits are exceptionally health especially in such a financially unstable world.

But if you are wondering where all the money goes? It isn't into Models or GW itself anymore, it's into the pockets of the Investors.

Directors Deals for Games Workshop (GAW)
Trade Date Action Notifier Price Currency Amount Holding
15-Aug-12 Buy Dividends Mark Wells 633 GBX 1,255 137985
9-Aug-12 Buy Tom Kirby 616 GBX 8,000 2131394
29-Jun-12 Buy Dividends Kevin Rountree 575 GBX 169 6315
25-Apr-12 Sell Mark Wells 570 GBX 1,982 136730
25-Apr-12 Buy Mark Wells 569.94 GBX 4,490 136730
23-Mar-12 Buy Tom Kirby 534.57 GBX 185,000 2123394
1-Nov-11 Exercise of option Mark Wells 191.2 GBX 5,020 134222
1-Nov-11 Exercise of option Kevin Rountree 191.2 GBX 5,020 6146
27-Oct-11 Buy Mark Wells 420 GBX 3,616 129202
14-Apr-11 Buy Mark Wells 430 GBX 7,051 125586
21-Sep-09 Buy Mark Wells 305 GBX 5,510 112589

So Tom Kirby owns 2131394 x £6.47 = £13.790119.18 so a nice £13 Million Pounds give or take.... Does that influence his business decisions? The fact he is about to retire? The fact that much of the money from the Dividend payout in 2011 could have been used to re-invest and cover all of the serious flaws in the games (lack of Codexes for certain factions for 2 editions) the drought of good specialist games.

I'm not anti-capitalist, far from it, but not all companies should float on the stock exchange and considering that GW is now in the FTSE 250, well we will all be milked for every penny.

The only way to make this hobby cheaper now is to Buy shares in the Company, and hope they pay second large Dividend soon.

Of the £21 you are paying for 5 Finecast Sword master of Hoeth a good percentage is going in Tom Kirby's Pocket.

@Navarro: i'm sorry man, i respect your work, but saying tabletop wargaming is the "people's game" is a joke...
the people's game is checkers, or maybe chess...
tabletop wargaming is for people with money, not people who live in real poverty...
here in the Third World, in any place you go, you will always find people playing checkers with bottle tops, and a hand drawn board...
starting price: $0
you use what you find on the ground...
THAT'S how poor people live...
poor people buy a kilo of rice, a kilo of beans, a kilo of potatoes, and a kilo of flour with their $35 dollars and feed their family for a couple of weeks...
they don't go out and buy a box of tactical marines, and then cry online about how they used to get 30 Beakies for $20 back in 1989...

cheers
jah