Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Am I alone in thinking...that the Imperial Gurd lost a huge chunk of playability and fun when we lost the dogmas and doctrines? For me what made the Guard so cool was the ability to field your own custom made force with its own character. Alternatively the famous official regiments had a distinctive set of features which set them apart from other regiments.

In my view the official regiments should have more (but specific) D&Ds than the DIY regiments, which represents how they are elite, that they have more points than a DIY regiment but are specialists.

I know that the current system of orders and the occasional use of the word 'dogma' or 'doctrine' here and there are meant to make up for the blatant lack of vision but for me, it's just pretty weak and dull.

I can understand that the appeal of the current system is freedom for the player, but IMO the DIY D&D points system still allowed you some freedom whilst also giving you that fantastic RPG element. Space Marine chapters, Eldar, Chaos- you name it- all have variety between their 'regiments' and they have specific rules and playing styles, why shouldn't the Guard have the same?

You are not alone, but popular reflexes are not astute and only ever correct by coincidence.

At the moment, no prominent army other than codex space marines can change its army wide rules. In that book, it is not about the regiment analogue or chapter, it is usually about a specific individual or office: the forgefather and master of the hunt, not salamanders and white scars. Tau Empire have some outmoded rules linked to Farsight.

The Guard book can build steel legion that are different from jungle fighters that are different from harakoni warhawks. It did away with fatuous rules that only flattered egos and interfered with gameplay. Upgrades or options that do not affect modeling are superfluous to miniatures games, and the restricted troops portion was redundant, since if I take so many ogryn units they displace some number of rough riders.

Codex space is not infinite and should include more units to be modeled or played and more background. Invisible rules do not supply those.

pelicaniforce wrote:
You are not alone, but popular reflexes are not astute and only ever correct by coincidence.
The Guard book can build steel legion that are different from jungle fighters that are different from harakoni warhawks.

Sorry, but this is plain WRONG. With the current codex, you can only have a generic army with generic units. You can't have an all-infiltrating army (Tanith), all-Deep Striking army (Harakoni), jungle fighters (Catachan) or melee guard (Kanak). You can only have generic light infantry army, generic mech army, generic foot army, generic air-cavalry or the generic combination of any of these. The magic word here is generic.

But personally, I'm not a big fan of army-wide doctrines. It kills the possibility of a multi-regiment army, and that is uncool. Platoon level upgrades would be much better.

Agreed, I love the fact that some regiments could be very specific. Of course it's great when and if you can mix an army up as you wish, and I admit the old system wasn't perfect but surely the best of both worlds would be to have the option

I did some work on a doctrine system. Isn't exactly the same, but offers a massive amount of versatility and lets one play any combo you want. You can run a light infantry regiment right alongside a heavy infantry regiment, supported by barbarians wielding swords and rough riders in carapace armour. Here is what I made.

Basic Doctrines: Can be given to Platoons, and all squads in them. Any doctrines taken by a squad in the platoon must be applied to every squad in the platoon.
1 Point per Model: Marksmen: Models may reroll any 1s rolled to hit in shooting.
1 Point per Model: Dirty Fighters: Models may reroll any 1s rolled to hit in close combat.
2 Points per Model: Grenadiers: Replace flak armour with carapace armour.
2 Points per Model: Stealth: Take camo cloaks.
3 Points per Model: Demolitions: Take meltabombs for the entire squad and a single demo charge.
4 Points per Model: Heavy Infantry: Replace their lasguns with hot-shot lasguns.
1 Point per Model: Light Infantry: Gains the move through cover special rule.
3 Points per Model: Gland Soldiers: Every model gains +1 strength.
2 Points per Model: Fanatics: Gains the rage special rule.
1 Point per Model: Warrior Weapons: Every model replaces their lasgun with a pair of close combat weapons or a laspistol and close combat weapon.
1 Point per Model: Great Weapons: Every model replaces their lasgun or laspistol with a two handed +1 str AP 5 close combat weapon.
1 Point per Model: Advanced Recon: The squad gains the Scout special rule.
3 Points per Model: Bolters: The squad replaces any lasguns with bolters and any laspistols with bolt pistols.
4 Points per Model: Pulse Weaponry: The squad replaces any lasguns with pulse rifles or pulse carbines, and any laspistols with pulse pistols. (Must be allied with Tau)

Veteran Doctrines: Can be given to veteran squads, or for half the price company command squads.
3 Points per Model: Grenadiers: Replace flak armour with carapace armour.
3 Points per Model: Forward Sentries: Take camo cloaks and snare mines.
3 Points per Model: Demolitions: Take meltabombs for the entire squad and a single demo charge.
4 Points per Model: Heavy Infantry: Replace their lasguns with hot-shot lasguns.
1 Point per Model: Light Infantry: Gains the move through cover special rule.
2 Points per Model: Assault Specialists: Unit gains +1 WS.
3 Points per Model: Gland Soldiers: Every model gains +1 strength.
2 Points per Model: Fanatics: Gains the rage special rule.
1 Point per Model: Warrior Weapons: Every model replaces their lasgun with a pair of close combat weapons or a laspistol and close combat weapon.
1 Point per Model: Great Weapons: Every model replaces their lasgun or laspistol with a two handed +1 str AP 5 close combat weapon.
1 Point per Model: Advanced Recon: The squad gains the Scout special rule.
3 Points per Model: Bolters: The squad replaces any lasguns with bolters and any laspistols with bolt pistols.
4 Points per Model: Pulse Weaponry: The squad replaces any lasguns with pulse rifles or pulse carbines, and any laspistols with pulse pistols. (Must be allied with Tau)

Rough Rider Doctrines
2 Points per Model: Grenadiers: Replace flak armour with carapace armour.
2 Points per Model: Assault Specialists: Unit gains +1 WS.
1 Point per Model: Advanced Recon: The squad gains the Scout special rule.
4 Points per Model: Modified Mounts: The squad gains the Skilled Rider special rule.
3 Points per Model: Bolters: The squad replaces any lasguns with bolters and any laspistols with bolt pistols.

Storm Trooper Doctrines
3 Points per Model: Gland Soldiers: Every model gains +1 strength.
2 Points per Model: Assault Specialists: Unit gains +1 WS.
30 Points: Demolitions: Take meltabombs for the entire squad and a single demo charge.

Ogryn Doctrines
5 Points per Model: Grenadiers: Replace flak armour with carapace armour.
5 Points per Model: Warrior Weapons: Replaces ripper gun with a pair of close combat weapons
5 Points per Model: Great Weapons: Replaces ripper gun with a two handed +1 str AP 5 close combat weapon.

Also, this exists to represent all manner of human soldiers, "Gland Soldiers" could be genetically modified guardsmen, they could also be mutated chaos worshipers, or skitarii of the Adeptus Mechanicus, those regular guarsmen with HSLG could just be regular guys who for some reason have the best guns available to the IG, they could also be inducted guard under the control of an inquisitor and given access to the best equipment as a result.

So yeah, using such a doctrine system you can represent the vast majority of Imperial forces outside of power armour troops. Want Adeptus Arbites? Take vets with shotguns and carapace armour (TBF you can do that now). Want some Ogryn berserkers to be allied to your World Eaters? Give them Great Weapons and you get str 7 Ogryn on the charge, and can do the same with guardsmen. Am a tad worried about some combos being broken, but since these are house rules meant for fluff and fun most people would call you out on being a guy who makes his own rules to boost an already good army.

 AtoMaki wrote:

pelicaniforce wrote:
You are not alone, but popular reflexes are not astute and only ever correct by coincidence.
The Guard book can build steel legion that are different from jungle fighters that are different from harakoni warhawks.

Sorry, but this is plain WRONG. With the current codex, you can only have a generic army with generic units. You can't have an all-infiltrating army (Tanith), all-Deep Striking army (Harakoni), jungle fighters (Catachan) or melee guard (Kanak). You can only have generic light infantry army, generic mech army, generic foot army, generic air-cavalry or the generic combination of any of these. The magic word here is generic.

But personally, I'm not a big fan of army-wide doctrines. It kills the possibility of a multi-regiment army, and that is uncool. Platoon level upgrades would be much better.

I think his point (and one with which I am in agreement) is that the only thing that makes those 'generic' is a lack of focus during army construction. Special rules are a sop for folks without imagination.

You can make a very interesting Catachan fighter army with the rules presented (veterans + Harker + Straken) or Steel Legion (all chimera + Yarrick), but you can also have the option built in of making jungle fighters who're lead by a strategic genius (the above + creed) which gives folks more chances to make the army their own, not less.

It's like the notional "all-in-one Space Marine Codex" that folks like to talk about, some would no doubt decry it as generic, but to really work it would need many options which work for multiple conceptual choices (i.e. assault marines as troops who can but counterattack covers ~3 troop types from existing codices, but no doubt people would complain that they're not 'really' black templars or space wolves without random special rules to help their imagination).

Jack

 Jackmojo wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

pelicaniforce wrote:
You are not alone, but popular reflexes are not astute and only ever correct by coincidence.
The Guard book can build steel legion that are different from jungle fighters that are different from harakoni warhawks.

Sorry, but this is plain WRONG. With the current codex, you can only have a generic army with generic units. You can't have an all-infiltrating army (Tanith), all-Deep Striking army (Harakoni), jungle fighters (Catachan) or melee guard (Kanak). You can only have generic light infantry army, generic mech army, generic foot army, generic air-cavalry or the generic combination of any of these. The magic word here is generic.

But personally, I'm not a big fan of army-wide doctrines. It kills the possibility of a multi-regiment army, and that is uncool. Platoon level upgrades would be much better.

I think his point (and one with which I am in agreement) is that the only thing that makes those 'generic' is a lack of focus during army construction. Special rules are a sop for folks without imagination.

You can make a very interesting Catachan fighter army with the rules presented (veterans + Harker + Straken) or Steel Legion (all chimera + Yarrick), but you can also have the option built in of making jungle fighters who're lead by a strategic genius (the above + creed) which gives folks more chances to make the army their own, not less.

It's like the notional "all-in-one Space Marine Codex" that folks like to talk about, some would no doubt decry it as generic, but to really work it would need many options which work for multiple conceptual choices (i.e. assault marines as troops who can but counterattack covers ~3 troop types from existing codices, but no doubt people would complain that they're not 'really' black templars or space wolves without random special rules to help their imagination).

Jack

Except that you can only run one squad of Catachans then, or you have to run an all veteran army to represent some particularly well equipped regiment. I never saw it as a crutch so much as allowing greater customization. Using the current doctrine system I can run an all grenadier army, I don't have to take a special military genius commander if I don't want to, I can run them as some sort of incompetent haughty nobles blowing themselves up with plasma guns.

Gonna have to disagree with you there and say that I wish I had played 4th ED Guard, simply for the doctrines. More specialised rules to help play a regiment differently (e.g. Deepstriking for Harakoni Warhawks) would be very welcome in my books. It could be said that the current book allows for more variety (the aforementioned jungle fighters/ Creed combo) but some might say this is unfluffy. I don't think either cause any lack of imagination though.

 Jackmojo wrote:

You can make a very interesting Catachan fighter army with the rules presented (veterans + Harker + Straken) or Steel Legion (all chimera + Yarrick), but you can also have the option built in of making jungle fighters who're lead by a strategic genius (the above + creed) which gives folks more chances to make the army their own, not less.

Not at all. An army with all-camovets would be simply an army of all-camovets and not an army Catachan jungle fighters. Camovets don't care about jungles (with or without Harker), so they simply can't be jungle fighters just random light infantry guys. You can present that army as Catachan only with modelling. Otherwise it would be (and technically, it is, just with different models) the same as any n+1 light infantry (including Tanith, Cadian LF, Valhallan LF or whatever) army out there.

it is even vorse with Steel Legion. They are just mechguard with Yarrick . No bonuses against Orks, no emphasis on specialized mech warfare, no nothing. Just guys in Chimeras with a commissar dude.

So with the current Guard 'dex you can only have the "looks" but not the "spirit".

This is not a question of not understanding what you mean.

I understand what you mean, I have been there. It is not even a question of weighing the arguments.

Regardless of the relative merits, I decided that I was a bad person for being attracted to invisible, constraining rules. It's actually a question of moral defect; I find army-wide invisible options to be morally defective.

Which regiment is generic and not special?

They all have idiosyncrasies. The Tanith are the generic regiment, the cadians and the tallarn are the generic regiments.

pelicaniforce wrote:
This is not a question of not understanding what you mean.

I understand what you mean, I have been there. It is not even a question of weighing the arguments.

Regardless of the relative merits, I decided that I was a bad person for being attracted to invisible, constraining rules. It's actually a question of moral defect; I find army-wide invisible options to be morally defective.

Which regiment is generic and not special?

They all have idiosyncrasies. The Tanith are the generic regiment, the cadians and the tallarn are the generic regiments.

The generic regiment are guardsmen with a 5+ save, lasguns, and no special rules. No matter how you make the model, those are generic guardsmen. Yet in fluff they aren't the only regiments, there are grenadier regiments where everyone has carapace armour, there are light infantry regiments where the average trooper is able to infiltrate. The current codex limits what you can do immensely. Pray tell how I could make any of the following regiments fluffy according to rules with the current rule sets

Kanak Skull Takers: Pretty much barbarians who at best have a laspistol, besides that they get swords, axes, and other simple melee weapons.
Terrax Guards: Imperial Guard Regiments known for being disciplined and using lots of carapace armour. No note of the unit being "elite" or "veterans"
Krourk Ogryn: Ogryn who are so stupid and barbaric they cannot and do not use ripper guns, forgoing them in favour of simpler melee weapons.
Harakoni Warhawks: A drop-troop regiment known for using lots of storm troopers, and for frequently wearing carapace armour in place of flak armour

In the end the main option is to take vets with a doctrine. The problem is that the doctrines aren't all encompassing and that it automatically limits your unit size and gives an "elite" feel. If people are resorting to doctrines anyway, why not expand doctrines to other units and give people more options?

Buttons wrote:
I did some work on a doctrine system. Isn't exactly the same, but offers a massive amount of versatility and lets one play any combo you want. You can run a light infantry regiment right alongside a heavy infantry regiment, supported by barbarians wielding swords and rough riders in carapace armour. Here is what I made.

Basic Doctrines: Can be given to Platoons, and all squads in them. Any doctrines taken by a squad in the platoon must be applied to every squad in the platoon.
1 Point per Model: Marksmen: Models may reroll any 1s rolled to hit in shooting.
1 Point per Model: Dirty Fighters: Models may reroll any 1s rolled to hit in close combat.
2 Points per Model: Grenadiers: Replace flak armour with carapace armour.
2 Points per Model: Stealth: Take camo cloaks.
3 Points per Model: Demolitions: Take meltabombs for the entire squad and a single demo charge.
4 Points per Model: Heavy Infantry: Replace their lasguns with hot-shot lasguns.
1 Point per Model: Light Infantry: Gains the move through cover special rule.
3 Points per Model: Gland Soldiers: Every model gains +1 strength.
2 Points per Model: Fanatics: Gains the rage special rule.
1 Point per Model: Warrior Weapons: Every model replaces their lasgun with a pair of close combat weapons or a laspistol and close combat weapon.
1 Point per Model: Great Weapons: Every model replaces their lasgun or laspistol with a two handed +1 str AP 5 close combat weapon.
1 Point per Model: Advanced Recon: The squad gains the Scout special rule.
3 Points per Model: Bolters: The squad replaces any lasguns with bolters and any laspistols with bolt pistols.
4 Points per Model: Pulse Weaponry: The squad replaces any lasguns with pulse rifles or pulse carbines, and any laspistols with pulse pistols. (Must be allied with Tau)

Veteran Doctrines: Can be given to veteran squads, or for half the price company command squads.
3 Points per Model: Grenadiers: Replace flak armour with carapace armour.
3 Points per Model: Forward Sentries: Take camo cloaks and snare mines.
3 Points per Model: Demolitions: Take meltabombs for the entire squad and a single demo charge.
4 Points per Model: Heavy Infantry: Replace their lasguns with hot-shot lasguns.
1 Point per Model: Light Infantry: Gains the move through cover special rule.
2 Points per Model: Assault Specialists: Unit gains +1 WS.
3 Points per Model: Gland Soldiers: Every model gains +1 strength.
2 Points per Model: Fanatics: Gains the rage special rule.
1 Point per Model: Warrior Weapons: Every model replaces their lasgun with a pair of close combat weapons or a laspistol and close combat weapon.
1 Point per Model: Great Weapons: Every model replaces their lasgun or laspistol with a two handed +1 str AP 5 close combat weapon.
1 Point per Model: Advanced Recon: The squad gains the Scout special rule.
3 Points per Model: Bolters: The squad replaces any lasguns with bolters and any laspistols with bolt pistols.
4 Points per Model: Pulse Weaponry: The squad replaces any lasguns with pulse rifles or pulse carbines, and any laspistols with pulse pistols. (Must be allied with Tau)

Rough Rider Doctrines
2 Points per Model: Grenadiers: Replace flak armour with carapace armour.
2 Points per Model: Assault Specialists: Unit gains +1 WS.
1 Point per Model: Advanced Recon: The squad gains the Scout special rule.
4 Points per Model: Modified Mounts: The squad gains the Skilled Rider special rule.
3 Points per Model: Bolters: The squad replaces any lasguns with bolters and any laspistols with bolt pistols.

Storm Trooper Doctrines
3 Points per Model: Gland Soldiers: Every model gains +1 strength.
2 Points per Model: Assault Specialists: Unit gains +1 WS.
30 Points: Demolitions: Take meltabombs for the entire squad and a single demo charge.

Ogryn Doctrines
5 Points per Model: Grenadiers: Replace flak armour with carapace armour.
5 Points per Model: Warrior Weapons: Replaces ripper gun with a pair of close combat weapons
5 Points per Model: Great Weapons: Replaces ripper gun with a two handed +1 str AP 5 close combat weapon.

Also, this exists to represent all manner of human soldiers, "Gland Soldiers" could be genetically modified guardsmen, they could also be mutated chaos worshipers, or skitarii of the Adeptus Mechanicus, those regular guarsmen with HSLG could just be regular guys who for some reason have the best guns available to the IG, they could also be inducted guard under the control of an inquisitor and given access to the best equipment as a result.

So yeah, using such a doctrine system you can represent the vast majority of Imperial forces outside of power armour troops. Want Adeptus Arbites? Take vets with shotguns and carapace armour (TBF you can do that now). Want some Ogryn berserkers to be allied to your World Eaters? Give them Great Weapons and you get str 7 Ogryn on the charge, and can do the same with guardsmen. Am a tad worried about some combos being broken, but since these are house rules meant for fluff and fun most people would call you out on being a guy who makes his own rules to boost an already good army.

That looks really cool, I might use that. Thanks

Still doesn't cater for my all tank army dream...

Buttons wrote:

The generic regiment are guardsmen with a 5+ save, lasguns, and no special rules. No matter how you make the model, those are generic guardsmen. Yet in fluff they aren't the only regiments, there are grenadier regiments where everyone has carapace armour, there are light infantry regiments where the average trooper is able to infiltrate. The current codex limits what you can do immensely. Pray tell how I could make any of the following regiments fluffy according to rules with the current rule sets

Kanak Skull Takers: Pretty much barbarians who at best have a laspistol, besides that they get swords, axes, and other simple melee weapons.
Terrax Guards: Imperial Guard Regiments known for being disciplined and using lots of carapace armour. No note of the unit being "elite" or "veterans"
Krourk Ogryn: Ogryn who are so stupid and barbaric they cannot and do not use ripper guns, forgoing them in favour of simpler melee weapons.
Harakoni Warhawks: A drop-troop regiment known for using lots of storm troopers, and for frequently wearing carapace armour in place of flak armour

In the end the main option is to take vets with a doctrine. The problem is that the doctrines aren't all encompassing and that it automatically limits your unit size and gives an "elite" feel. If people are resorting to doctrines anyway, why not expand doctrines to other units and give people more options?

I won't argue that some more unit options wouldn't be nice (carapace armour on normal troopers for example seems a popular missing option being discussed here).

But as to getting the feel of the above regiments, I think its perfectly achievable, if in some cases suboptimal from a competition standpoint (as themes often are):

Kanak Skull Takers: Penal Legions as primary army component.
Terrax Guards: Carapace Vets and regular troopers with commissars (for that extra disciplined feel, use them as counts as sergeants if commissars are not the right flavor)
Krourk Ogryn: Model them without guns and forgo shooting with them
Harakoni Warhawks: Carapace Veterans (one w/ bastonne) and Stormtroopers in Valkyrie's and Vendettas.

Naturally lots of this is "counts as" but that's always the best solution for themed armies, not additional layers of special rules. In the scale 40k is played at (50-100 troopers on the table) most minor differences are not worth covering (i.e. autoguns vs lasguns).

To more completely elucidate my opinion, I feel that the better units in each codex are those which allow options for multiple uses and themes (ork boys and IG Veterans for example) without dumping lots of extraneous rules on them to do it, some variety in equipment choices which refocus the units use are the best way to differentiate units which are otherwise very, very similar, in the case of the IG human infantry for the most part.

Jack

 Jackmojo wrote:

Kanak Skull Takers: Penal Legions as primary army component.

Not really. Beyond the fact that you have on average 1/3rd of your forces specializing in shooting (Assault 2 guns instead of rapid fire), and rending is a poor way to represent soldiers armed with special close combat weapons. So only 1/3rd of your squads will really be a close-combat oriented force, and even then, not very good.

Terrax Guards: Carapace Vets and regular troopers with commissars (for that extra disciplined feel, use them as counts as sergeants if commissars are not the right flavor)

The problem is that you have to choose between commissars or carapace armour. You can't have guys with carapace armour having a commissar supporting your squad. Also I always hated vets. The cool thing about the IG is that they have an actual military organization (rather than just several squads doing their own thing, you have individual platoons), and taking vets removes that.

Krourk Ogryn: Model them without guns and forgo shooting with them

Then you are already making an inefficient unit even less efficient. It isn't even as if this is a hard upgrade implement.

Harakoni Warhawks: Carapace Veterans (one w/ bastonne) and Stormtroopers in Valkyrie's and Vendettas.

Unfortunately it is likely to get you called a WAAC jackass (which to be honest is a fair accusation with the new flyer rules), and as with the Terrax Guard example removes one of the coolest features of the IG IMO, the platoon structure.

In the end half of your solutions involved literally taking vets with a doctrine, which would be fine, but then it brings up the point, "Why not just give those doctrines to infantry squads?"

Yes, you can use count as to an extent, but it isn't that hard or that complicated to simply add some special rules or equipment upgrades. My doctrine set was extreme, and included a lot, some people like that. However, the most important thing isn't that you can let vets infiltrate, it is that you can port the simplest doctrines to other units. Now instead of being forced to take vets and abandon two of the main points of the Imperial Guard (relatively puny mortals and the platoon structure) you can take vets if it better fits your army, but you can also take regular guardsmen if that better fits your army.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
Still doesn't cater for my all tank army dream...

50 Points per Model: Unified Armoured Regiment: The armoured squadron may be taken as a troop choice instead of a heavy support choice.
30 Points per Model: Unified Artillery Regiment: The artillery battery may be taken as a troop choice instead of a heavy support choice.
50 Points per Model: Unified Valkyrie/Vendetta Squadron: The Valkyrie or Vendetta squadron may be taken as a troop choice instead of a fast attack choice.
This is mostly a joke option, but whatever, you can field 9 tanks unsquadroned for 1650 points, and could apply the same to HQ choices.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on design philosophy then, I think any of those themes is perfectly reasonably shown on the tabletop with the current codex and no special shenanigans necessary.

Jack