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Granted, it's the Flesh Tearers, and I really wouldn't compare the Blood Angels to them... yet.
(I just read the short story about Captain Tycho's last fight in an old WD a few days ago, and it actually made me like them a lot more - this is how you write the tragic end of a true hero!)

But all in all, Armageddon 3 and all the fluff surrounding this campaign really showed us a different perspective of the Space Marines, away from the clean and epic Codex legends. Of course you still had heroic feats and brave fights, but you also had deranged cannibals attacking their own allies, honourable Chapters being condemned to a meaningless death by Inquisitorial backstabbing, or enraged Guard Officers and human-hating Marines almost coming to blows over heavy collateral damage resulting out of careless Whirlwind bombardment of overcrowded refugee camps.

Quite a different side to the "veni, vidi, vici" and "rah rah honour epic rah" stories we usually get to read, no? Dirty, and realistic.

You just made me want to find out more about the fate of all those other BA Successor Chapters though ...

Renegade I can only think of 1 and even then they fight for the Imperium.

Every chapter First founding or not hase some sort of flaw, Just becouse ours was inflicted by Chaos does not mean we are any less loyal.

IIRC SoB Open fire on Flesh Terrors on more than one occasion a few times unprovoked.

If we are going to go into Friendly casualtys look at the chapter Marines Malevolent that shelled a Imperial evacuation zone becouse orks had broken the outer lines.

There's two renegade Chapters, I could have sworn there were more. 1 was forgiven after the Badab War.

2 Chapters have been "fatally undone by their gene seed".

Lemarters joined the Astral claws (Red Corsares) becouse of a honor pact they where forgiven

Knights of Blood Deamed Renegade becouse of there actions, Still loyal to the IoM

BloodAngels Brother wrote:IIRC SoB Open fire on Flesh Terrors on more than one occasion a few times unprovoked.

Do you have any more information on this? First time I'm hearing this. In terms of "unsanctioned" clashes I've heard only of an incident with the Angels Vermillion, but even there we don't know why it occurred as no details were given.

What do the Celestial Lions have to do with the renegade Red Corsairs, though?

Have to read up on the Knights of Blood. I've heard that name a few times on this forum now, but don't actually know anything about them.

Sorry Derped that one up Its the Astral Claws I was thinking about.

I dont have access to the Information while Im on shift. I will find It when I get home and PM it to you Lynata

Two points:

1) The Knights of the Blood have waffled in the fluff. Old fluff has them as full-on Chaos-worshippers, with a profile of the Juggernaut of Khorne as their symbol. The new fluff has them as brutal, violent, but essentially IoM-supporting. There is even evidence that they were just declared renegade due to politics or a misunderstanding of some kind.

2) When I made my initial list, I was intentionally being conservative and favoring the Inquisition in an effort to overcome my own natural pro-Blood Angels bias. I absolutely agree that there is an argument to be made for many of the chapters I wrote would stab the Blood Angels in the back supporting them instead.

Amaya wrote:Hey, hey, hey.

Don't ignore Lynata's quote.

"Chapter Master Seth denied me any tactical counsel whatsoever. After nearly a century in leading my Sisters to war, occasionally alongside Marine Chapters, this treatment came as no surprise. The fighting organisation and capabilities of any Sororitas Order is at least the equal to an Astartes Chapter and my Sisters are well versed in the covering of tactical errors by our alleged allies. This alone is of no concern to myself or the Order. [...]
During my service to the Order, I have heard many strange rumours concerning the Successor Chapters of the Blood Angels, but it is evident that the Fleshtearers have devolved far beyond any point reached by a loyalist Chapter. Either call in an Inquisitor or bring the Imperial Navy to bombard these animals from space, but my Order will not fight alongside the Fleshtearers again, I swear it. By the Immortal Emperor and everything I hold to be Holy, my Sisters will not risk themselves by allying with savages, regardless of your own wishes."
-- Canoness Carmina

Granted the SOB are very fond of torching stuff, but this still highlight how degenerate the Blood Angels and successors have become. They are two stumbles away from becoming worshipers of Khorne and IIRC the number of renegade Blood Angel successor chapters is by no means insignificant.

Was that aimed at me?
If so , the image of the Flesh Tearers in this current Blood Angels codex is not identical with the 3rd ed Armageddon fluff.
Sure the authors missed to get the "go down in a blaze of g(l)ory " chance and kept Seth afloat.

But the BA went berzerk in front of the imperial palace before and the plan still is to aim them at the enemy, a plan that works usually. Why change a successful tactic? The end of the timeline of codex BA has chaos and nids coming, so its not impossible to allow those who may stray from the path the Emperor envisioned to repay their debt to Emperor and Primarch, to offer themselves so the IoM can live.

Lynata wrote: I am argueing that "being a Space Marine" is not (or rather: should not) a "get ouf of jail free" card that simply negates any stupid move a Chapter Master might pull. Because some people in this thread seem convinced that this is the case.

Compared to many other imperial subjects a marine has a "get a free call home before they sentence you card ".
As i have pointed out , space marines may account for their deeds, which you could see if you stopped ignoring the fact that even a "success" to sent them on a crusade of penance based on falsified information can lead to your own destruction. Which in and itself was an example of
the Adeptus Astartes not being beyond all and surely no "get out of jail free card" .

Lynata wrote:What lies? Space Marines do not follow the One True Faith, can (depending on the Chapter) be labeled as mutants and (depending on the circumstances) be labeled as traitors if they refused a direct order from a higher authority. Such as the Inquisition.

- The one true faith was founded by a traitor.
- The label of mutants ignores they are created by the God-Emperor himself, thus to criticize them for what they are is to doubt the God-Emperor. Who doubts his works, is a heretic, so these priests shall incinerate themselves.
- There is no direct order from a "higher authority" since this so called "higher authority" can't pull this 24/7. To be precise, an Inquisitor may pull his weight in a war council and have it his way, but he can't order anyone around all day long. They are, singular figures. So this "higher authority" acts like the "secret police " they are, can't just shove their rosette in everyones face when their numbers wouldn't be enough to have one per planet. So labelling one as traitor needs evidence. This means time spent and since we know what a strain it is for the administratum to keep the data of the imperium in check with billlions of those bureaucrats availble, the oh so high authority is most likely aiming for the most dangerous offenders, the ones who start rebellions and such across whole systems. Thus not the space marines.
Becauise 6th ed stated that more worlds than ever a put under the control of the Space marines to stabilize them.
So per 6th ed, trust is in the Adeptus Astartes.

Lynata wrote:
You're mixing things up. It's not "against the forces of the IoM" when it is the IoM that does the preaching. It's called "Excommunicate Traitoris". .

The IoM as an entity would never endorse preaching against the Astartes in general and especially its heritage as the realm of the Emperor, the founder of the Astartes, would only highlight the ecclesiarchy lost on a path opposed to his will.
Last time I checked, GW fluff is filled with inquisitors and members of the ecclesiarchy turning against him on Terra, whilst the mechanicum seems pretty fine with him as the omnissiah..so lets see:
- chances of inquisitors and cardinals ruining the imperial war effort = high
- chances of space marines saving the day after that = high
- in summary = the only neccessary group is the space marines. The other two are acceptle collateral damage.

Lynata wrote:That's why there's the Sisters of Battle, to go around and kill Apostate Cardinals. Oh, and the Ordo Hereticus, which was established after the Age of Apostasy to ensure that something like this doesn't happen again.

You should remind the authors then, it seems its the other way round now. Sob sticking with the corrupt ones , ignoring the primary objective.

Lynata wrote:
I like it, I have it (both editions, and the Munitorum Manual too!), but I'd not consider everything it says as 100% representative. Really, do you believe every single trooper is issued all the stuff from that huge list of equipment? Even the Rough Riders or the Vostroyans? In fact, the Mars-Pattern Lasgun supposedly having a charge slider clearly conflicts with GW's own information in the Inquisitor RPG.

Its published on purpose, to allow a peek on what such a pamphlet could look like. I would put it above 3rd party products, as it has a GW product - code and was sold by GW itself even in places where they don't usually have FW,BL,etc to offer.
Serves its purpose too, as being funny. Now if this is 100% representative, Why has it to be this ?
Maybe I don't expect a hobby product that may sink down in a line of products over time to deliver a 100%, since a game universe can and should evolve.

Lynata wrote:
But just on a hypothetical note, even if we take the IIUP as gospel, why do you think it should include (oh, and it doesn't) the heraldry of 1.000 Space Marine Chapters? Would it have enough pages? Do Imperial Guard regiments really operate right next to Astartes Chapter on daily routine?

GW has done about ~200 IIRC heraldries of chapters, so a lot of stuff for your hypothetical missing.
Plus, the trick of GW was to add spikes, to make it chaotic.
Aside from the limits of GW, the imperium has its tacticae, who provide intel about the opposing of the future/current location.
Friend / foe recognition is part of a successful campaign and many things are identified by incomplete sightings in battle, so attacking anything that looks like a rhino is not as good as knowing the difference between a tainted vehicle of the traitor legions and the rhino of the loyal servants of the Emperor who may also field rhinos.
At least those IG regiments who operate at long range ( armored, artillery etc ) should be able to identify their targets without opening their little book each time they use their weapons. So it comes down to the abilities of the recon units and the knowledge of the commanders.
A general may not know a 1k chapters, but his staff can find this out .

Lynata wrote:I wish it had been presented as a saga, that would make it easier to swallow.
That said, Fenris' harsh environment was at least mentioned as having finished off any survivors that were both left behind and not amongst those 10k that were killed by the SW.

Agreed. A clever author had chosen better, like making it Napoleon in Russia in space for example. No 100% copy, no but taking the hint and using the environment as a threat....ah so much potential wasted...

Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:An example of such decree against anyone carriying the legacy of the Legions would be nice. I think this is something that only happens to those having weird names to begin with, whose place is with chaos as their fluff will be part of a CSM codex. So resistance is unneccessary.

You're avoiding the question. We're playing theoretical scenarios here. As in: how would it work if GW would actually be willing to sacrifice even the big names.

No you try to redirect the subject from the BA to a change that will not happen as we know GW isn't going there.
They made a mistake once with the EoT campaign. They learned. ( hard to believe but true ). OtoH they like to sacrifice sisters...
And the answer is therefore: GW creates an unimportant chapter and kills it.
Like every other company does.

PS: GW could end the ultramarines vs the tyranids and have successors re-founding them. But they did not.

Well they have 10 thousand years of loyal service to the imperium, their primarch is possibly the most beloved among the loyalist primarchs for his service and sacrifice in battle vs horus.
Frankly the inquisition couldnt care if a bunch of your guys go crazy for the blood of the enemy after ripping them to shreds. As long as its the enemies of the imperium getting killed its all good as far as they care.

The inquisition cares about everything, if they believe behavior to be deviant, nobody is beyond their gaze save for the Custodes.

1hadhq wrote:If so , the image of the Flesh Tearers in this current Blood Angels codex is not identical with the 3rd ed Armageddon fluff.
Sure the authors missed to get the "go down in a blaze of g(l)ory " chance and kept Seth afloat.

That's not true at all.
You are missing the fact that the timeline is stuck at 999.M41, and the War for Armageddon rages still. The story cannot progress, and this includes the sword of damocles looming over the Flesh Tearers' head.

Thanks for prompting me to take a look at the BA Codex, though - I didn't know the Angels Vermillion, which I recall clashed with the Sororitas in the past, were a BA Successor Chapter.
(and the BA fluff is rather interesting in any way; I've read little about them in the past and I feel this should change)

1hadhq wrote:Compared to many other imperial subjects a marine has a "get a free call home before they sentence you card ". As i have pointed out , space marines may account for their deeds, which you could see if you stopped ignoring the fact that even a "success" to sent them on a crusade of penance based on falsified information can lead to your own destruction. Which in and itself was an example of
the Adeptus Astartes not being beyond all and surely no "get out of jail free card" .

Are we talking past each other? Crusades of penance are occasionally imposed (or even self-imposed) for failing to carry out an order. Ongoing sedition from Imperial authority or critical geneseed corruption would obviously warrant a more direct approach, especially since the latter could not be resolved even if the Chapter wanted to. Or do you believe the Flesh Tearers enjoy their flaw? Chapter Master Seth is said to be quite troubled by his Chapter's apparent future.

1hadhq wrote:The one true faith was founded by a traitor.

Fatidicus wasn't a traitor but a loyal officer of the Navy.

1hadhq wrote:The label of mutants ignores they are created by the God-Emperor himself, thus to criticize them for what they are is to doubt the God-Emperor. Who doubts his works, is a heretic, so these priests shall incinerate themselves.

Chaos corrupts even His work, as was obvious during the Horus Heresy. And is mutation not the mark of Chaos? The Preacher said so!

1hadhq wrote:So labelling one as traitor needs evidence. This means time spent and since we know what a strain it is for the administratum to keep the data of the imperium in check with billlions of those bureaucrats availble, the oh so high authority is most likely aiming for the most dangerous offenders, the ones who start rebellions and such across whole systems. Thus not the space marines.

I think you are dismissing the fact that a number of Space Marine Chapters has been purged by Imperial forces in the past.
The "most dangerous offenders" can be Astartes, if their actions and motifs move them into this firing line and call down Inquisitorial scrutiny. I find it ironic how, in one moment, you stress the Space Marines as oh-so-important and influential, but in the very next breath you play them down as not posing any threat to Imperial order at all. The Adeptus Terra has the power to create and destroy Marine Chapters at will, so simply replacing a notorious troublemaker with a "fresh" group of Marines would surely be a more efficient use of the resources consumed by the Astartes?

1hadhq wrote:The IoM as an entity would never endorse preaching against the Astartes in general

Who said they would? Not me.
Unless the Astartes as an entity would move against the IoM, of course.

1hadhq wrote:Last time I checked, GW fluff is filled with inquisitors and members of the ecclesiarchy turning against him on Terra, whilst the mechanicum seems pretty fine with him as the omnissiah..so lets see:
- chances of inquisitors and cardinals ruining the imperial war effort = high
- chances of space marines saving the day after that = high
- in summary = the only neccessary group is the space marines. The other two are acceptle collateral damage.

None of these three groups is truly necessary. Though the Ecclesiarchy is arguably still the most useful of them all, simply because it unites the people with their indoctrination. It is also telling that you immediately throw in the useful Inquisitors and Cardinals with the renegade ones, but ignore the existence of the Chaos Space Marines, or the fact that even now Chapters keep on going rogue.

1hadhq wrote:You should remind the authors then, it seems its the other way round now. Sob sticking with the corrupt ones , ignoring the primary objective.

I don't see this, tbh.
Then again, I'm going by GW fluff. I'm sure there are some weird novels out there where the portrayal might be different.

1hadhq wrote:Its published on purpose, to allow a peek on what such a pamphlet could look like. I would put it above 3rd party products, as it has a GW product - code and was sold by GW itself even in places where they don't usually have FW,BL,etc to offer.

Duh, anything is published on purpose. Doesn't change that it is still a Black Library book, written by freelance authors. Where exactly does "GW itself" sell it in places where they don't offer FW/BL/etc? Because it's not their website, that one has Black Library novels also.

1hadhq wrote:Maybe I don't expect a hobby product that may sink down in a line of products over time to deliver a 100%, since a game universe can and should evolve.

And you are correct in this, at least as far how consistency in 40k is handled. Just like any BL novel, the IIUP is just "one of many lenses to look at the universe", to borrow from ADB's explanation.
I'm just saying you can't cite the IIUP as "evidence" in a discussion about GW fluff. Two different worlds.

1hadhq wrote:Plus, the trick of GW was to add spikes, to make it chaotic.

I'm fairly sure that this is not an in-universe rule on "how to identify Chaos cultists".

1hadhq wrote:A general may not know a 1k chapters, but his staff can find this out .

So, exactly like I said: The Guardsman gets told what to shoot, and he shoots.

1hadhq wrote:No you try to redirect the subject from the BA to a change that will not happen as we know GW isn't going there.

So the whole debate is useless. We all know that GW isn't going to condemn any Chapter that is actually popular on the table. Just like they'd never condemn a Major Order of the Sisters, or one of the big Guard regiments. Because in such an event they'd force a change upon a whole lot of players who would likely not appreciate it.
And even if GW would be open to do such a thing, any speculation is worthless as the timeline will not move forward. Even if something were "scheduled" to happen in M42, we ain't gonna see it.

What we were discussing here was conclusions and basics of the fluff, ignoring any such limitations like "the timeline ain't gonna move forward" or "this army is too popular with players".
I thought that was obvious?

I dare to say - Inquisition and SoB are lower then IG in popularity amongst fans - First founding legions are just indestructible unlike later random founding chapter's....I'm talking about BL perspective...

 Lynata wrote:
That's not true at all.
You are missing the fact that the timeline is stuck at 999.M41, and the War for Armageddon rages still. The story cannot progress, and this includes the sword of damocles looming over the Flesh Tearers' head.

Somehow, I don't feel you read both storys. The timeline is and always will be stuck, but that does not matter as armageddon is in 757998M41 and the current end in 995999M41 granting the story of the Flesh Tearers some space to continue.

 Lynata wrote:

(and the BA fluff is rather interesting in any way; I've read little about them in the past and I feel this should change)

 Lynata wrote:
Ongoing sedition from Imperial authority or critical geneseed corruption would obviously warrant a more direct approach, especially since the latter could not be resolved even if the Chapter wanted to. Or do you believe the Flesh Tearers enjoy their flaw? Chapter Master Seth is said to be quite troubled by his Chapter's apparent future.

As it is currently, the BA have a theme the OP didn't catch.
Its about resisting a flaw, to carry on until the end. A bit of a well done base with a touch of a theme to heavy for younger parts of the customer base to get into. Without fear to tread in my posession yet , I am not sure what to think of their past as a given.
The Blood Angels have a violent past and most likly a violent death as their future, but that does not make them fall. They carry on , like their Primarch was willing to sacrifice all he had, dedicating everything to the cause they agreed to serve 10 millenia ago.
Sedition is not their way, they serve in many campaigns and alongside the military arm of the inquisition too.
Even if Seth is troubled, and who wouldn't be, the BA have a history others are jealous of and won't taint their record with a broken oath to the master of mankind. Collateral damage on their way off of the stage is maybe acceptable if the show is epic enough...

 Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:The one true faith was founded by a traitor.

Fatidicus wasn't a traitor but a loyal officer of the Navy.

The foundation was laid by Lorgar. Isn't he an arch-traitor?

 Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:The label of mutants ignores they are created by the God-Emperor himself, thus to criticize them for what they are is to doubt the God-Emperor. Who doubts his works, is a heretic, so these priests shall incinerate themselves.

Chaos corrupts even His work, as was obvious during the Horus Heresy. And is mutation not the mark of Chaos? The Preacher said so!

Marines aren't mutants, they are human children to begin with, and the preacher who says otherwise can debate that with a chainsword in his innards and we will see what his real allegiance is...is suspect its one of a cult, but not a pro-imperial one.

 Lynata wrote:

I find it ironic how, in one moment, you stress the Space Marines as oh-so-important and influential, but in the very next breath you play them down as not posing any threat to Imperial order at all. The Adeptus Terra has the power to create and destroy Marine Chapters at will, so simply replacing a notorious troublemaker with a "fresh" group of Marines would surely be a more efficient use of the resources consumed by the Astartes?

I ? oh I just following your path.. The adeptus astartes has, as I pointed out earlier, not taken overall command even when they could.
They got however more heaped upon them by the highlords as they seem to be strained and think astartes are a safer bet than other options to keep the whole show from going down the drain. Both taken from the 6th ed timeline.
Sure a replacement could happen and in the case of a fatal loss the importance of continuing the legacy of a fromer Legion would see a name change of an existing successor or a new founding.

 Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:The IoM as an entity would never endorse preaching against the Astartes in general

Who said they would? Not me.

not you? Sure?

 Lynata wrote:
It is also telling that you immediately throw in the useful Inquisitors and Cardinals with the renegade ones, but ignore the existence of the Chaos Space Marines, or the fact that even now Chapters keep on going rogue.

Useful inquisitors? in GW background? Maybe the useless are more fun to write about because I can't actually remember the other group....they are to hidden it seems.
And how could I ignore the CSM? Their whining is in everyones ears...and soon their boasting of their oh so well made choice of choas.
If you want, consider me uncaring for the renegades as their doom is inevitable and we can agree that the newest addition to their ranks was inserted as CSM with a 'loyalist' backstory ( new starter set ) so they never had a active role as loyalists but a history to explain their fall.

 Lynata wrote:
Duh, anything is published on purpose. Doesn't change that it is still a Black Library book, written by freelance authors. Where exactly does "GW itself" sell it in places where they don't offer FW/BL/etc? Because it's not their website, that one has Black Library novels also.

Short answer: GW stores. Long Answer.

 Lynata wrote:

I'm just saying you can't cite the IIUP as "evidence" in a discussion about GW fluff. Two different worlds.

But.. my copy says I am getting shot if I lose it or allow the enemy to take a peek on the first page.
Seriously, as much as I try, can't get behind this. The existance of the IIUP is evidence that the holder of the IP liked the idea of small booklets carried by the basic grunts, something that isn't unknown in real life and I did not propose the content of the IIUP as any form of truth. Just an example of the possible form of such pamphlets. To have a general idea isn't wrong, isn't it?

 Lynata wrote:
So the whole debate is useless.

Not at all .
- A useless debate would be another x vs y universe thread
- another missing legions thread without new fluff to chew on
- bestest x or y threads
etc etc


Don't you think a OP should be active in the thread?

 Lynata wrote:
What we were discussing here was conclusions and basics of the fluff, ignoring any such limitations like "the timeline ain't gonna move forward" or "this army is too popular with players".
I thought that was obvious?

Obviously the background works within its limitations.

Either the company is accepted as what it is and its published material taken as is too , or you have to limit the playground of the discussion within the available range of 40k related products, like software running in a sandbox.

1hadhq wrote:Somehow, I don't feel you read both storys. The timeline is and always will be stuck, but that does not matter as armageddon is in 757998M41 and the current end in 995999M41 granting the story of the Flesh Tearers some space to continue.

I feel you misunderstood what I was trying to say. The Third War for Armageddon started 757998M41. It is far from over and will continue for several years (according to the most optimistic predictions by Imperial analysts), meaning that it is possible for the Flesh Tearers to have deployed there after "The Darkest Hour" in the BA Codex. Alternatively, their involvement on Armageddon 3 happened before, but they simply relocated their forces until anything could happen.

I don't see the contradiction. Nothing ever happened to the Flesh Tearers yet, so nothing has changed. What the fluff says is that the Chapter is "close to being excommunicated", at which point it would have to face the Imperium's usual cleanup efforts. Due to all of this happening so close to the end of the timeline, this would occur only in M42 either way. But since the timeline does not advance, ...

1hadhq wrote:The Blood Angels have a violent past and most likly a violent death as their future, but that does not make them fall.

I'm still talking about Space Marines in general. Will the Blood Angels ever become as depraved as the Flesh Tearers? Maybe. But they haven't reached this point yet. But we were hypothesising what would happen if they do.

1hadhq wrote:The foundation was laid by Lorgar. Isn't he an arch-traitor?

You are referring to (a) the wrong faith and (b) to Black Library novel interpretation.
Even if you take the novel as gospel, the Lectitio Divinatus is not the Temple of the Emperor Ascendant. Just because both revere the Emperor as a god does not make them equal in origin. Religious reverance for the Emperor spread up across the entire Imperium once he was dead; Fatidicus was merely the most successful (and most influential) preacher, since his powerbase was located on Terra and he was a high-ranking officer in the military. Could they be connected? Maybe, but that's pure conjecture and as likely as the opposite - just that it's disregarding the fact that people would probably be somewhat wary of anything coming from the traitors rather than adopting it.

1hadhq wrote:Marines aren't mutants, they are human children to begin with, and the preacher who says otherwise can debate that with a chainsword in his innards and we will see what his real allegiance is...

I hope you realise that your argument wouldn't actually convince anyone in the setting.

1hadhq wrote:I ? oh I just following your path..

No, you really don't. I'm trying to show you how the average Imperial citizen grows up and what high-ranking Imperial officials may think. You are responding with meta-information that is either of no interest or unavailable to the people in question.

1hadhq wrote:not you? Sure?

Pretty much. I have a rather solid perception of how the Imperium is made up and how it works.

1hadhq wrote:Short answer: GW stores. Long Answer. [...] However, Some products find their way onto these shelfs, the first imperial armor books and a few BL products.

So by your own admission you are wrong.
I'm pretty sure that GW shop owners are free to order what they want (which is why you can order a book at your FLGS), at least anything that is on GW's store website. Which also sells growing number of BL novels.

1hadhq wrote:Seriously, as much as I try, can't get behind this. The existance of the IIUP is evidence that the holder of the IP liked the idea of small booklets carried by the basic grunts, something that isn't unknown in real life and I did not propose the content of the IIUP as any form of truth. Just an example of the possible form of such pamphlets. To have a general idea isn't wrong, isn't it?

That's like saying that the existence of Goto's novels means that "the holder of the IP" likes the idea of Space Marines wielding multilasers.
BL publishes a lot if the day is long. That's a fact. Do you really want me to list the number of instances where the IIUP clashes with Codex fluff?

Just like any BL novel, it is one of many interpretations on the setting. Hell, there's gotta be countless regiments whose troops cannot even read.

1hadhq wrote:Either the company is accepted as what it is and its published material taken as is too , or you have to limit the playground of the discussion within the available range of 40k related products, like software running in a sandbox.

I for one am generally going by the fluff put out by Games Workshop itself, because it's (obviously) closest to how the setting will progress and be further detailed in the various codices and rulebooks and other publications. By limiting myself in this way, I gain an increased consistency and continuity out of the setting.
What material are you going by? I just hope you realise that by basically adopting BL novels and other licensed material "carte blanche" you are creating tons of internal conflicts and contradictions you'd have to resolve somehow by subjectively picking one source over the other.

Don't get me wrong, I'm actually adopting stuff I like from a number of licensed publications as well - but only for my custom version of 40k, which I am not representing here, since I feel that novels are a poor common ground. And we need a common ground to discuss anything, don't we?

 Lynata wrote:
timeline .. time line lime time ....

Please when your done with this obsession of the stasis of the setting, may we advance to the actual fluff as written in the codex?
Last entry is IIRC about the incoming Demons and tyranids and Dante calling all of the BA successors back to the Baal system.
The Flesh Tearers go there. Plenty of chances to keep or end the chapters involved in this.
The dates are clear, as are the participants. Darkest hour is after armageddon, since Dante calls his companies back from there..
May i also suggest pages 53 and 55 before you return to your scheduled sermon about the timeline? Thanks.

 Lynata wrote:
I'm still talking about Space Marines in general.

In a Blood Angels thread?

 Lynata wrote:
Will the Blood Angels ever become as depraved as the Flesh Tearers? Maybe. But they haven't reached this point yet. But we were hypothesising what would happen if they do.

BA are like dwarven slayers, they die. Their theme is to chose death in battle, not to run away like cowardly CSM.
So in your hypothesis, all BA go deathcompany. The trigger is what? right usually a ton of enemies. enemies of the Emperor that is.
So they give their life in his service. Too bad that is exactly what the whole adeptus was created for. So tell me, fullfilling your duty makes you what? A mutant? a traitor? or just shows the foolishness of those who call them this?

 Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:The foundation was laid by Lorgar. Isn't he an arch-traitor?

You are referring to (a) the wrong faith and (b) to Black Library novel interpretation.
Maybe, but that's pure conjecture and as likely as the opposite - just that it's disregarding the fact that people would probably be somewhat wary of anything coming from the traitors rather than adopting it.

Wrong faith? Ahh religious war coming to dakka.... should start a thread about the correct faith...
Why should one disregard what he can't connect to the original author? It is a possible theory and a funny one, considering Lorgar wanted the deification of the Emperor and the aftermath of the heresy got him what he no longer wants... like shooting in your own foot.

 Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Marines aren't mutants, they are human children to begin with, and the preacher who says otherwise can debate that with a chainsword in his innards and we will see what his real allegiance is...

I hope you realise that your argument wouldn't actually convince anyone in the setting.

The priest and the witnesses of his demise would be very convinced of my argument.
Citizens of ultramar most likely would agree with me without a doubt, nocturneans too , etc etc.

 Lynata wrote:
I'm trying to show you how the average Imperial citizen grows up and what high-ranking Imperial officials may think.

The average citizen of a million worlds grows up exactly like??? ....wait......... Shouldn't ask something you can't answer.
No offense to your story writing abilities meant, but still what a person " may " think is not what we know but the image we make of them and then who can be sure nothing got stuck from funny pictures in dakka threads or bad authors dribbling?
GW basic products contain the military part of society and even there its an incomplete picture.
Without BL for example, there is not much of everydays life, no politics, no backstabbing, etc. Really want to show the aspects beyond the battles without the "add on's" ?

 Lynata wrote:
I have a rather solid perception of how the Imperium is made up and how it works.

Reading your posts I start to doubt it..
Especially this gem:

 Lynata wrote:

Hell, there's gotta be countless regiments whose troops cannot even read.

Cannot read.

I wouldn't comment on it if this was WHFB.
But 40k? Sorry, this is a setting closer to the 1900AD than 2000BC in this case.
Stone age worlds have no IG tithe and only xeno scum deems humans as uncivilized as you make them sound here.

 Lynata wrote:

So by your own admission you are wrong.

Can't be.
The spoilered bit was a bit compressed into a few lines but is a honest answer.

 Lynata wrote:

I'm pretty sure that GW shop owners are free to order what they want (which is why you can order a book at your FLGS), at least anything that is on GW's store website. Which also sells growing number of BL novels.

So all you got is your guess of what they sell over here and when this isn't what they do I am wrong?
Again:


If you want the full range, you still have to follow the link at the GW site to its sub-companies.

 Lynata wrote:

Do you really want me to list the number of instances where the IIUP clashes with Codex fluff?

Go counting.

 Lynata wrote:
And we need a common ground to discuss anything, don't we?

Still can't exclude what is not in rulebooks and codices if the only source is a BL product. The decision of nothing or something is no decision at all.

1hadhq wrote:Please when your done with this obsession of the stasis of the setting, may we advance to the actual fluff as written in the codex? Last entry is IIRC about the incoming Demons and tyranids and Dante calling all of the BA successors back to the Baal system. The Flesh Tearers go there. Plenty of chances to keep or end the chapters involved in this. The dates are clear, as are the participants. Darkest hour is after armageddon, since Dante calls his companies back from there.. May i also suggest pages 53 and 55 before you return to your scheduled sermon about the timeline? Thanks.

So what are you trying to tell me? I'm still waiting for you to detail where exactly this supposed conflict to the Armageddon fluff is located.

And just in case you missed it:

Armageddon 3 Campaign Website wrote:+++ Date: 2588999/M41
+++ Ref: Arm/71103491/CTC
+++ By: Canoness Carmina, Order of the Argent Shroud, Fire Wastes
+++ To: General Kurov, Armageddon Command Guard, Infernus Hive
+++ Re: Deviancy within Adeptus Astartes Fleshtearers

The Darkest Hour may be after the beginning of the Third War of Armageddon, but given that the war is still going on (and won't end before M42) it would be quite possible that the Flesh Tearers have actually deployed to this world after "The Darkest Hour".
Though like I said: Even if this is not the case and "The Darkest Hour" takes place after 588999.M41 (which we do not know, but is possible), I still fail to see where the contradiction lies and how this would affect the Flesh Tearers' future. All the Armageddon fluff said was that this Chapter is close to being excommunicated, and since this would arguably happen only in M42, we'll never see it happen - we can only expect it. Why the debate?

1hadhq wrote:In a Blood Angels thread?

Yes, in a Blood Angels thread, because people have escalated this to be an "Astartes issue" by calling on this supposed immunity, which I dispute to this point and have attempted to dispel with my previous posts.

1hadhq wrote:BA are like dwarven slayers, they die. Their theme is to chose death in battle, not to run away like cowardly CSM. So in your hypothesis, all BA go deathcompany. The trigger is what? right usually a ton of enemies. enemies of the Emperor that is. So they give their life in his service. Too bad that is exactly what the whole adeptus was created for. So tell me, fullfilling your duty makes you what? A mutant? a traitor? or just shows the foolishness of those who call them this?

You're either not getting me, or ignoring the points I raise on purpose. First of all, I'm not proposing that "all BA go Death Company", I'm saying there's a chance that they may end up just like the Flesh Tearers one day, and that if this day comes they would have to pay the exact same price.
And no, attacking your own allies because you're in a mindless frenzy and cannot discern between friend or foe anymore is not "fulfilling your duty", it's Khornate madness.

1hadhq wrote:Wrong faith? Ahh religious war coming to dakka.... should start a thread about the correct faith... Why should one disregard what he can't connect to the original author? It is a possible theory and a funny one, considering Lorgar wanted the deification of the Emperor and the aftermath of the heresy got him what he no longer wants... like shooting in your own foot.

This has nothing to do with a religious war, you're just trying to say the 40k version of "Christianity is the same as Islam because they both have people revere a god and his prophets". Which is just plain wrong.
Maybe your novel-invented religion is connected to the Codex one, just like Christianity and Islam share a common origin. But you're saying "it is so" in what appears to be some attempt to taunt me.
Perhaps you have misjudged me. I'm a fan of Ecclesiarchy fluff, but I don't take it to extreme lengths in that I identify with it, as certain other fans do with their favourite factions. Indeed, I have often argued against certain posts that have portrayed the Ecclesiarchy or its forces in what I deemed a distorted, too positive light, because each faction having its skeletons in the closet (some more, some less) is what makes them and the entire setting so interesting for me.

Seeing you write about "xeno scum" or gleefully mentioning Black Library's Lectitio Divinatus coming from a CSM when it has nothing to do with the topic at hand makes me think that you should maybe take a step back, too.

1hadhq wrote:The priest and the witnesses of his demise would be very convinced of my argument.

I'll take that as a no, then.

1hadhq wrote:The average citizen of a million worlds grows up exactly like??? ....wait......... Shouldn't ask something you can't answer. No offense to your story writing abilities meant, but still what a person " may " think is not what we know but the image we make of them and then who can be sure nothing got stuck from funny pictures in dakka threads or bad authors dribbling? GW basic products contain the military part of society and even there its an incomplete picture. Without BL for example, there is not much of everydays life, no politics, no backstabbing, etc. Really want to show the aspects beyond the battles without the "add on's" ?

If you've never read of the GW fluff concerning civilian life in the Imperium, then you've simply missed out on it - quite possibly due to a certain disinterest for whatever this fluff was attached for.
The Ecclesiarchy is a factor on every Imperial world (sans AdMech Forgeworlds and Astartes fiefdoms, of course), and the Imperial Cult hold great influence over peoples' lives, including that of numerous officers and every single Commissar in every single Guard regiment.
To form an image of the Imperial citizenry, I don't need any Black Library "add ons" who go into greater detail by gaking all over what GW has established. Codex fluff and a few WD issues are sufficient.

1hadhq wrote:Cannot read. I wouldn't comment on it if this was WHFB. But 40k? Sorry, this is a setting closer to the 1900AD than 2000BC in this case. Stone age worlds have no IG tithe and only xeno scum deems humans as uncivilized as you make them sound here.

Really. I have no idea what kind of imare you have of the Imperial Guard, but it seems much more homogenous than mine.

"Many Imperial Guard regiments are recruited from the savage urban environments of the hive worlds, planets where family- or corporate-based warfare is more or less epidemic. Such troops are battle-hardened long before they are recruited into the Imperial Guard, and are regarded as the best raw material for a fighting regiment. Other favourite recruiting grounds are the feral and medieval planets, as these tend to have a natural warrior caste. These primitive warriors must be thoroughly trained to use modern weapons, but they are not discouraged from native practices, such as head-hunting and the taking of scalps and other trophies. Similarly, the wearing of warpaint and barbarous battle-gear is regarded as perfectly acceptable, as such customs serve to encourage the troops and frighten the enemy."
- 2E C:I p26

"Attila is a rough world, inhabited by barbarous horse tribes who are constantly fighting each other."
- 3E C:IG p3

"Whilst the majority of Rough Riders are raised from feral, undeveloped worlds this is not exclusively the case."
- 5E C:IG p44

"The uniforms and specific armaments of the different Imperial Guard regiments change dramatically from world to world. The newly inducted Guardsmen are issued with the same style of uniform and weapons as that of their own world's fighting forces. The troopers may go to war in full battle-dress or little more than primitive armour and tribal tattoos. The only universal piece of equipment common throughout the entirety of the Imperial Guard is the lasgun."
- 5E C:IG p8

Did you look at some of those example regiments in various Codices such as the 3E one (it had a rather neat list with lots of pictures)? If you think WHFB has primitive armies, you haven't seen the Imperial Guard. There's regiments that go into battle looking like Conan and friends, equipped with fur coats, spears and Aquila tattoos!

1hadhq wrote:Can't be. The spoilered bit was a bit compressed into a few lines but is a honest answer.

A honest answer in which you said your FLGS sells Black Library novels. So what is it now?
Oh, and just because your local store may not have some product in stock right away has little to do with its affiliation to GW and its subsidiaries. Otherwise I'd have to ask you who makes the SoB minis.

1hadhq wrote:So all you got is your guess of what they sell over here and when this isn't what they do I am wrong?

You are wrong when you are contradicting your own statements.
Oh, and I've been born in Germany. I know what they sell "over there".

1hadhq wrote:Go counting.

The two I remember right away (and really the only two that "bother" me at least somewhat):
- IIUP claims that there is a "standard set of issued equipment for Guardsmen", contradicted by various rulebooks and codices including the 5E IG Codex which I have already quoted above
- IIUP claims that the Mars-pattern lasgun has a charge slider, contradicted by 5E C:IG on page 38 as well as the Inquisitor RPG on page 56

The IIUP also claims that flak armour is fashioned from armaplas and ceramics, whereas 1E BRB page 114 says it's air bubbles and plastic, but I'm gonna let this one slide since (a) this one would be really pedantic and (b) you'd probably only protest about Rogue Trader is oh-so-old and anything in it should be forgotten.

1hadhq wrote:Still can't exclude what is not in rulebooks and codices if the only source is a BL product. The decision of nothing or something is no decision at all.

On the contrary, by limiting acceptable evidence to GW fluff we guarantee a common ground. If you throw in BL novels or other licensed products the whole debate only becomes muddled by sub-discussions about how this book is gakky or that book is good, because whether you think something is fitting and want to adopt one into your own personal interpretation of the setting is entirely up to personal preferences and subjective taste.

Lynata wrote:
You are missing the fact that the timeline is stuck at 999.M41, and the War for Armageddon rages still. The story cannot progress, and this includes the sword of damocles looming over the Flesh Tearers' head.

I'm going to stay out of most of the discussion but I will say this;
The Setting is stuck at 999.M41.
The Stories have no such reason to remain here and can freely go in any-which direction they want.

The Setting also ends there for a specific reason, last time I saw the full date written (3rd ed BRB I think) it ends specifically fifteen or so minutes before midnight of the final day of the Millennium.
A game six-turns long, is roughly fifteen minutes in-game time.

Vampires exists on Earth, which makes them not xenos or heretics!

Who said heretics can't exist on Holy Terra?

 Amaya wrote:
Who said heretics can't exist on Holy Terra?

If they are vampires.

Kettu wrote:I'm going to stay out of most of the discussion but I will say this;
The Setting is stuck at 999.M41.
The Stories have no such reason to remain here and can freely go in any-which direction they want.

Well, yeah, but GW ain't going to tell those stories. So we don't really know how the setting would "go on" if the studio writers had their way. We just have some indications to how it "should" proceed, which is what I thought we were talking about?
The timeline not moving on is probably a good thing, though, specifically because a number of their factions - not just the Flesh Tearers - have been maneuvred into a corner they can't get out of again without breaking consistency. The whole setting being frozen in its current state means that all current armies will continue to be playable forever.

Kettu wrote:The Setting also ends there for a specific reason, last time I saw the full date written (3rd ed BRB I think) it ends specifically fifteen or so minutes before midnight of the final day of the Millennium.
A game six-turns long, is roughly fifteen minutes in-game time.

That is ... interesting. I didn't even think of it this way yet.

Lynata wrote:

Armageddon 3 Campaign Website wrote:+++ Date: 2588999/M41
+++ Ref: Arm/71103491/CTC
+++ By: Canoness Carmina, Order of the Argent Shroud, Fire Wastes
+++ To: General Kurov, Armageddon Command Guard, Infernus Hive
+++ Re: Deviancy within Adeptus Astartes Fleshtearers

The Darkest Hour may be after the beginning of the Third War of Armageddon, but given that the war is still going on (and won't end before M42) it would be quite possible that the Flesh Tearers have actually deployed to this world after "The Darkest Hour".
Though like I said: Even if this is not the case and "The Darkest Hour" takes place after 588999.M41 (which we do not know, but is possible), I still fail to see where the contradiction lies and how this would affect the Flesh Tearers' future. All the Armageddon fluff said was that this Chapter is close to being excommunicated, and since this would arguably happen only in M42, we'll never see it happen - we can only expect it. Why the debate?

Imperial Dates ( since 3rd ed for sure ) are 7 digit. You may consider a direct transmission precise, but still any other date is not invalid just because it is provided as a 3 digit set.
So per codex armageddon ( ie the published background of the campaign, ISBN 1-84154-054-4 ) the first invasion was at 941M41.
In 948M41 the defense was analyzed and improved. 50 years used to rebuild, then Ghazzy came back.

So 948 or 941 +50 it shall be. Doesn't add up to 999.

- 6th BRB : armageddon n3 = 757998M41
- 5th ed BRB: armageddon n3 = 757998M41
- 4th ed BRB: armageddon n3 = 998M41
- 3rd ed codex Armageddon : armageddon n3 = 998M41 ( 941 + 57 )
- C: BA 5th ed: armageddon n3 = 998M41

So every source puts A3 in the year 998 of M41.
The darkest hour, is put to 999 M41.

Do we agree that 998 and 999 are not the same ?

- codex armageddon forces imperialis at A3 : 1 company of BA , 5 companies of Flesh Tearers
- 6th ed BRB forces imperialis at A3 : 1 company of BA , 5 companies of Flesh Tearers

consistency across 3 editions. Still with me?

- codex BA "darkest hour:" Dante recalls his company of BA from armageddon and requests support from successors and many possible allies. One of the first to respond are the Flesh Tearers and they bring all they have left ( ie the 5 companies from armageddon are included ).

This shows the entry of Codex BA is after armageddon 3 and it spells out the forces recalled to Baal.

I don't see where you get the idea the clearly given locations of the BA and their successors leave any doubt of the order of the fluff.
Begin of A3 = 998. Redeployment to Baal in 999. Its not BC. Its not closing to zero.

Since you insist on this non-existant presence of the FT at the end of 999M41 at Armageddon, there has to be a debate as your "common ground" seems to be your beliefs and not the publications of GW. Wasn't it your take to base this at the 'official' fluff?
If it still is, I would suggest to stop imagining the location of the FT and please accept the fluff as is this time.

Lynata wrote:because people have escalated this to be an "Astartes issue" by calling on this supposed immunity, which I dispute to this point and have attempted to dispel with my previous posts.

Wasn't me who said a 100% immunity is there, but a greater than usual resilience against attempts to question ones loyality is, those who faked the evidence ceased to exist. Not rocket science to spot the difference.

Lynata wrote: First of all, I'm not proposing that "all BA go Death Company", I'm saying there's a chance that they may end up just like the Flesh Tearers one day, and that if this day comes they would have to pay the exact same price.
And no, attacking your own allies because you're in a mindless frenzy and cannot discern between friend or foe anymore is not "fulfilling your duty", it's Khornate madness.

And the Flesh Tearers have the issue that may turn them all into candidates for the DC. So yes, your claim is every son of sanguinius falling to this. Don't try to hide it, this "khornate madness" gives it away, you have the same problem as the OP. Missing the theme of the BA.

Lynata wrote:If you've never read of the GW fluff concerning civilian life in the Imperium, then you've simply missed out on it - quite possibly due to a certain disinterest for whatever this fluff was attached for.

The fluff of civilian life is not in their BRB, or codices, or expansions. Which I as having seemingly nothing better to do tend to read like any other piece from GW from one end to the other. May misremeber or forget things, sure.

Lynata wrote:
To form an image of the Imperial citizenry, I don't need any Black Library "add ons" who go into greater detail by gaking all over what GW has established. Codex fluff and a few WD issues are sufficient.

They gak all over?
I would question the advertisement pamphlet and your lack of love for BL. The early days of the IoM are already given to BL and FW. Its too late to escape them...

Lynata wrote:
"Many Imperial Guard regiments are recruited from the savage urban environments of the hive worlds, planets where family- or corporate-based warfare is more or less epidemic. Such troops are battle-hardened long before they are recruited into the Imperial Guard, and are regarded as the best raw material for a fighting regiment. Other favourite recruiting grounds are the feral and medieval planets, as these tend to have a natural warrior caste. These primitive warriors must be thoroughly trained to use modern weapons, but they are not discouraged from native practices, such as head-hunting and the taking of scalps and other trophies. Similarly, the wearing of warpaint and barbarous battle-gear is regarded as perfectly acceptable, as such customs serve to encourage the troops and frighten the enemy."
- 2E C:I p26

"Attila is a rough world, inhabited by barbarous horse tribes who are constantly fighting each other."
- 3E C:IG p3

"Whilst the majority of Rough Riders are raised from feral, undeveloped worlds this is not exclusively the case."
- 5E C:IG p44

"The uniforms and specific armaments of the different Imperial Guard regiments change dramatically from world to world. The newly inducted Guardsmen are issued with the same style of uniform and weapons as that of their own world's fighting forces. The troopers may go to war in full battle-dress or little more than primitive armour and tribal tattoos. The only universal piece of equipment common throughout the entirety of the Imperial Guard is the lasgun."
- 5E C:IG p8

Did you look at some of those example regiments in various Codices such as the 3E one (it had a rather neat list with lots of pictures)? If you think WHFB has primitive armies, you haven't seen the Imperial Guard. There's regiments that go into battle looking like Conan and friends, equipped with fur coats, spears and Aquila tattoos!

1) Conan was able to read. 2) the IG already got Rambo&co. Adding Conan would guarantee an autowin.
3) WHFB has HRRDN and medieval britain/france. You really claim the IG is less evolved than this?
4) You seem to like 3rd, so something from the 3rd ed BRB:

Worlds of the imperium
- (Stone age/feral ) 80.000+ , at pre black powder era, max 5.000.000 souls
- ( feudal ) 40.000+ , around black powder era, max 500.000.000 souls
- ( civilized ) 350.000+ , industrial era , max 10.000.000.000 souls
- ( forgeworlds ) 100.000+ ( no tithe )
- ( hiveworlds ) 140.000+, surely at the level of the industrialized ones,max 500.000.000.000 souls.

Guess the major recrutement sources are worlds whose recruts can read and the fact their populations suggest that the few uneducated regiments are rare. Because the sources of 'barbarians' are just about 12% of the imperial worlds, the educated ones about 50%.
Its also neccessary they understand signs and maps, the IG moves them around a lot and has the time to educate them in transit.

Lynata wrote:Oh, and just because your local store may not have some product in stock right away has little to do with its affiliation to GW and its subsidiaries. Otherwise I'd have to ask you who makes the SoB minis.

A) there is this shiny codex SoB on the shelf and these beautiful plastic minis....Oh wait, thats a daydream.
B) there is no local store. But 2 of GW's and a few independents if I feel the urge to drive an hour or so.
so no, the GW's carry 3 lines as I said earlier. Feel free to disbelieve me.

Lynata wrote:Oh, and I've been born in Germany. I know what they sell "over there".

Then you left ages ago and things have changed or you mistake the HQ for their usual way to operate.
Not an issue.

Lynata wrote:
- IIUP claims that the Mars-pattern lasgun has a charge slider, contradicted by 5E C:IG on page 38

The IIUP also claims that flak armour is fashioned from armaplas and ceramics, whereas 1E BRB page 114 says it's air bubbles and plastic, but I'm gonna let this one slide since (a) this one would be really pedantic and (b) you'd probably only protest about Rogue Trader is oh-so-old and anything in it should be forgotten.

Right, 1st ed is older than many Dakkanauts and deserves to rest in the memory of the ancient wargamers but this is 2012. Protest given.
The IG codex has a pic, but lists all these different patterns so how did you identify the lasgun when there are 7 of them mentioned?

Lynata wrote:The whole setting being frozen in its current state means that all current armies will continue to be playable forever.

This saves your army too.

I'd say plot armor

1hadhq wrote:So every source puts A3 in the year 998 of M41.
The darkest hour, is put to 999 M41.
Do we agree that 998 and 999 are not the same ?

I have pointed out several times now that the Third War for Armageddon is (obviously) not limited to a single date. This is when it all starts, and by the moment the timeline stops the war is still raging. I have no idea why you keep going back to the year 998.

1hadhq wrote:- codex armageddon forces imperialis at A3 : 1 company of BA , 5 companies of Flesh Tearers
- 6th ed BRB forces imperialis at A3 : 1 company of BA , 5 companies of Flesh Tearers

The chart is dated 721999.M41, not 998, but that just as a sidenote.

1hadhq wrote:- codex BA "darkest hour:" Dante recalls his company of BA from armageddon and requests support from successors and many possible allies. One of the first to respond are the Flesh Tearers and they bring all they have left ( ie the 5 companies from armageddon are included ).

See, here you've finally established a fact. I had forgotten that the Blood Angels and the Flesh Tearers were on Armageddon simultaneously, but the chart clearly shows they were. So, when the Flesh Tearers were following the BA, it obviously must occur after 721999.M41, which was when the chart's "snapshot" was taken.

They sure redeploy fast, don't they.

1hadhq wrote:Since you insist on this non-existant presence of the FT at the end of 999M41 at Armageddon [...]

Are you skipping parts of my posts on purpose? I did not "insist" on it, I named it as one of two options, the other being the one you've now proven. Scroll up.
And I am still waiting for you to show me where the sources contradict regarding the future of the Flesh Tearers. The actual issue we've been talking about? The thing that led us to this debate?

1hadhq wrote:Wasn't me who said a 100% immunity is there, but a greater than usual resilience against attempts to question ones loyality is, those who faked the evidence ceased to exist. Not rocket science to spot the difference.

Chapters, such as that of Lord Caustos, have been excommunicated "based on somewhat flimsy and circumstantial evidence", to quote the Index Astartes. I'm not aware of any Inquisitor in GW's fluff actually faking proof, though I guess it's possible. *shrug*
Anyways, I was not aware we were even discussing the quality of any hypothetical evidence. Is this an attempt at opening up a new sub-section of the debate, or were you just trying to taunt me?

Regarding the immunity, you were happy to chime in, though. What was it you said ... ah, yes:
"The original subject of this thread, the Blood Angels, would send Mephy to meet the =I=. Stare at him/her. See them leave in a hurry to never return into imperial space. Case closed. "

1hadhq wrote:And the Flesh Tearers have the issue that may turn them all into candidates for the DC. So yes, your claim is every son of sanguinius falling to this. Don't try to hide it, this "khornate madness" gives it away, you have the same problem as the OP. Missing the theme of the BA.

It's not only the Death Company that has "issues" in the Flesh Tearers.
Also ... excuse me? "Same problem as the OP"? I think it's you who is missing something - the topic I am discussing, which was not the Blood Angels' theme at all but any Space Marine Chapter's risk to fall under Inquisitorial scrutiny or face various penalties for any transgressions.

1hadhq wrote:The fluff of civilian life is not in their BRB, or codices, or expansions. Which I as having seemingly nothing better to do tend to read like any other piece from GW from one end to the other. May misremeber or forget things, sure.

Then I suggest you read back up on books such as the SoB Codices or the Inquisitor and Necromunda games, which go into some depth regarding civilian life. Hell, even the rulebooks talk about it. It's hard not to talk about civilians at all when describing a nation, much more when you are describing its priests whose sole purpose is to interact with said civilians.

1hadhq wrote:They gak all over? I would question the advertisement pamphlet and your lack of love for BL. The early days of the IoM are already given to BL and FW. Its too late to escape them...

Sure I can escape them. I can ignore them just like GW does. Or other BL authors.
I read BL novels because of the stories they tell, not because they add detail to the world. Because the only world they add detail to is the world represented in that one book (or series of books). I value consistency too much to bother with that sort of stuff.

I still have an email in my inbox from my editor, asking “Why didn’t you reference X in your novel?”
I also have my reply. It says, quite simply, “Because X sucks, and so does the guy who wrote it.”
-- Aaron Dembski Bowden

1hadhq wrote:WHFB has HRRDN and medieval britain/france. You really claim the IG is less evolved than this?

Again with "the IG".
There is no "the IG". There are countless regiments from countless different worlds, all with different uniforms, different customs, different tactics ... and get this, a different level of education!

And yeah, when the Codex talks about "feral tribes", I'd say that does sound a little less involved than medieval Britain/France.

1hadhq wrote:Guess the major recrutement sources are worlds whose recruts can read and the fact their populations suggest that the few uneducated regiments are rare. Because the sources of 'barbarians' are just about 12% of the imperial worlds, the educated ones about 50%.

Maybe your guess is right, maybe (see that 2E Codex quote) it's not. I still don't see why you simply discard those 12% - which would actually amount to a whole lot of regiments on a galactic scale.
Just as a reminder, I never said "all of the IG can't read", I said there will be some regiments who don't. Which for some reason you are dead-set against.

1hadhq wrote:Its also neccessary they understand signs and maps, the IG moves them around a lot and has the time to educate them in transit.

Necessary? Not at all. It is necessary that they fight and die. The rest is up to the Officers and Commissars in charge.

1hadhq wrote:so no, the GW's carry 3 lines as I said earlier. Feel free to disbelieve me.

Why should I? You're just repeating what I said all along.

Quick recap: I said the IIUP is as good as any BL novel. Then you said that, for some reason, "it's more important" and attempted to prove this by GW apparently selling it in their shops, to which I replied that they also sell novels in shops.
So ... what exactly are you trying to say now?

1hadhq wrote:The IG codex has a pic, but lists all these different patterns so how did you identify the lasgun when there are 7 of them mentioned?

The IG Codex mentions several patterns of lasguns (including the Mars which is featured in the IIUP), but singles out the Triplex as the one having a charge slider. Which is 100% consistent with the Inquisitor RPG. The IIUP thus contradicts both these GW sources.

1hadhq wrote: This saves your army too.

Apart from my army being a Minor Order of my own making, and thus having 0% representation in GW fluff, the Sisters of Battle do now show any signs of trouble regarding their continued existence. Much like, say, the Ultramarines or the Valhallans. The number of armies who appear "threatened" is actually extremely low, though even excommunication would not necessarily just "kill off" the Flesh Tearers. They could survive and simply become a rogue Chapter like the Sons of Malice. But many people would probably still not like being pushed into the Chaos camp.
Or are you referring to the Imperium's existence as a whole? Because I'm not amongst those who believe that the entire Imperium of Man would somehow cease to exist in M42. All signs are just pointing at a tough time ahead, but that could mean anything.

By the way, just got my hands on Index Astartes IV - the article about Rogue Space Marine Chapters is rather interesting as it details how exactly the process of excommunication works and how the Imperium acts in such events, or what it takes to get on the Inquisition's target list. Very recommendable.

 Lynata wrote:

regarding the future of the Flesh Tearers. The actual issue we've been talking about? The thing that led us to this debate?

So what is it now ? Flesh Tearers or general space marines of all flavors?

 Lynata wrote:
or were you just trying to taunt me?

Why should I taunt you with every other post?`

 Lynata wrote:

Regarding the immunity, you were happy to chime in, though. What was it you said ... ah, yes:
"The original subject of this thread, the Blood Angels, would send Mephy to meet the =I=. Stare at him/her. See them leave in a hurry to never return into imperial space. Case closed. "

Am sorry, missed the message we are restricted to super-serious replies. Can't have dakkanauts posting anything but canonical facts.

 Lynata wrote:
I think it's you who is missing something -

again, no. I see where you attempt to steer the debate to and I am trying to keep it on track.

 Lynata wrote:
Then I suggest you read back up on books such as the SoB Codices or the Inquisitor and Necromunda games, which go into some depth regarding civilian life.

Somehow, I feel that WD dex doesn't contain much about the civilian life...
Plus your thing of no BL means I am going to discard the specialist games and 3rd party stuff

 Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Guess the major recrutement sources are worlds whose recruts can read and the fact their populations suggest that the few uneducated regiments are rare. Because the sources of 'barbarians' are just about 12% of the imperial worlds, the educated ones about 50%.

Maybe your guess is right, maybe (see that 2E Codex quote) it's not. I still don't see why you simply discard those 12% - which would actually amount to a whole lot of regiments on a galactic scale.

Maybe the game had a reboot at 3rd ed? Maybe we could use material the majority of readers has access to? So lots of may-be 's...
To discard the importance of 12% of the sources when said sources got a low population and point out the ( 5th ed IG ) billions of regiments
are most likely founded where a regiment can be aquisitioned without too much extra effort of the munitorum needs explanation?
Fine, think about the available pool of recruts at the 50% of the more advanced sources. Consider the possibility industrialized worlds may equip them at a higher standard and surely without additional training to know how to hold that lasgun they all seem to get.
Compare that to the 12% with low standards and a limited pool of recruts. Plus the fact some of those worlds are handed to the astartes, who indoctrinate them and thus their new members are able to read.
The overwhelming mass of regiments will come from the 50% is not a bad guess IMO. Half of the IoM contributing 50+x% seems correct to me and there is almost nothing to make the exception ( a few regiments from the 12% ) having any significant influence at the picture of
" average joe guardsmen " .

 Lynata wrote:
I never said "all of the IG can't read", I said there will be some regiments who don't.

'sorry, your claim was average joe guardsmen can't read. I take it you retract that imprecise statement?

 Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Its also neccessary they understand signs and maps, the IG moves them around a lot and has the time to educate them in transit.

Necessary? Not at all. It is necessary that they fight and die. The rest is up to the Officers and Commissars in charge.

So hundreds of thousands of Guardsmen ( per cruddys take on the size of regiments ) are led around by a few officers and commissars ( which are so far in the minority if we run with cruddys take on the structure of the IG ) and don't need to understand what they see?
Fine, they don't even get to the battlefield because of their inabitlity. Isn't it unfair to deny them their chance to serve?

 Lynata wrote:
You're just repeating what I said all along.

No.

 Lynata wrote:

Quick recap: I said the IIUP is as good as any BL novel. Then you said that, for some reason, "it's more important" and attempted to prove this by GW apparently selling it in their shops, to which I replied that they also sell novels in shops.
So ... what exactly are you trying to say now?

OK. youre unwilling to accept the way it is.
Am saying that anything running with a GW code is different from things jut sporting ISBN code.
But I doubt you are interested in this..

1hadhq wrote:So what is it now ? Flesh Tearers or general space marines of all flavors?

This sub-section of our debate was concerning the Flesh Tearers. You said the 3E fluff contradicts with the 6E fluff. I'm still waiting on you explaining how, because I don't see it.

1hadhq wrote:Why should I taunt you with every other post?`

I don't know, I'm asking you. I've noticed that a (small) number of posters here like to bash another poster's favourite army whenever they disagree on something.

1hadhq wrote:Am sorry, missed the message we are restricted to super-serious replies. Can't have dakkanauts posting anything but canonical facts.

In a discussion about canonical facts?
Perhaps you should use a disclaimer like "this post is not intended to contribute to the topic at hand" or something then.

1hadhq wrote:again, no. I see where you attempt to steer the debate to and I am trying to keep it on track.

Oh? Where am I trying to steer the debate? All I did was pointing out that Marine Chapters in general aren't as immune to Inquisitorial/Imperial authority as a lot of people seem to think. You disputed this, so you were opening up this sub-section for debate.
We can "agree to disagree" anytime. Just give the word. Otherwise I'll continue to point out what it says in GW's fluff any time you make a claim that contradicts it.

1hadhq wrote:Somehow, I feel that WD dex doesn't contain much about the civilian life...
Plus your thing of no BL means I am going to discard the specialist games and 3rd party stuff

3rd party stuff, yes, of course. Specialist Games are GW, however.
And I can't change anything about your feelings, I can only point out that the fluff goes into quite some detail when it comes to the interaction between the Ecclesiarchy and the Imperial citizenry.

1hadhq wrote:Maybe the game had a reboot at 3rd ed? Maybe we could use material the majority of readers has access to? So lots of may-be 's...

So you're saying that we are supposed to drop any fluff before 6th Edition now?

1hadhq wrote:'sorry, your claim was average joe guardsmen can't read. I take it you retract that imprecise statement?

Please read my posts more carefully. I said:
"Hell, there's gotta be countless regiments whose troops cannot even read" (14th post on page 3) which carries quite a different connotation to what you are trying to put into my mouth.

1hadhq wrote:So hundreds of thousands of Guardsmen ( per cruddys take on the size of regiments ) are led around by a few officers and commissars ( which are so far in the minority if we run with cruddys take on the structure of the IG ) and don't need to understand what they see?
Fine, they don't even get to the battlefield because of their inabitlity. Isn't it unfair to deny them their chance to serve?

Why should they "not even get to the battlefield"? Spatial and aerial (re)deployments are handled by the Imperial Navy, though even if they march on foot (like many other regiments do, considering that they're not all mechanized or mounted), it only takes a single person with a compass (to be found in the HQ section) to get them wherever they're needed.
Hell, the first study of literacy in the British Army in 1858 found that only 1/3 of all soldiers was to some degree literate. Obviously it did not pose a serious issue. I'm not sure that you truly realise that there is a vast difference between the level of autonomy required from modern day soldiers to their comrades throughout the past couple centuries, or various regiments hailing from a similar culture in 40k. In the 41st millennium, there's not even a truly uniform language across these regiments, which would obviously carry over into the written material. Why do you think a Sororitas translator is required for greater campaigns that involve forces from a multitude of worlds?

1hadhq wrote:OK. youre unwilling to accept the way it is.
Am saying that anything running with a GW code is different from things jut sporting ISBN code.
But I doubt you are interested in this..

My Daemonifuge comic has a GW code too.

 Lynata wrote:

Spoiler:

I'm still waiting on you explaining how, because I don't see it.

I've noticed that a (small) number of posters here like to bash another poster's favourite army whenever they disagree on something.

Perhaps you should use a disclaimer like "this post is not intended to contribute to the topic at hand" or something then.

Oh? Where am I trying to steer the debate?

All I did was pointing out that Marine Chapters in general aren't as immune to Inquisitorial/Imperial authority as a lot of people seem to think.

which carries quite a different connotation to what you are trying to put into my mouth.

Nice attempts. But sorry not interested enough to deal with it that late ( 0100 ).
I apologize if I accidentally bashed anything you hold dear.

 Lynata wrote:

Otherwise I'll continue to point out what it says in GW's fluff any time you make a claim that contradicts it.

None of my claims contradicted GW. They do however share a certain level of incompatibility with your views.

 Lynata wrote:

So you're saying that we are supposed to drop any fluff before 6th Edition now?

Right now, its the 1st of September the new dawn of 40k, confirmed by GW'S launch of the starter, all hail 6th ed!

So please get off of that path to a troll-cave. We both know that I did not say you should drop 3rd , 4th and 5th ed.

 Lynata wrote:

Why should they "not even get to the battlefield"?

Can't prod them like cattle 24/7 , given Cruddys idea of organization.

 Lynata wrote:
it only takes a single person with a compass (to be found in the HQ section) to get them wherever they're needed.

No.

 Lynata wrote:
I'm not sure that you truly realise that there is a vast difference between the level of autonomy required from modern day soldiers to their comrades throughout the past couple centuries, or various regiments hailing from a similar culture in 40k.

So this irrelevant autonomy has what to do with the fact of the IG commonly deployed away from their home turf?
With the fact that an overall command can move millions of them without translators?
With the fact that even the lowliest level of technology increases the benefits of the ability to read on its way further up to a point where those inable to are near useless. I think you should accept the fact the IG operates on a mix of WW1 tactics and design plus hi-tech weapons.
Not a place for napoleonic era line infantry, nor ancient phalanx or any other example you will come up with.
May also point to the supply of the IG ,the munitorum, which is able to interact with the IG Galaxy wide and as they are as bureaucratic as anyone else in logistics, they will insist in filled forms, in correct identifications of any goods and there is no way in hell an illiterate bunch of savages gets any food, water, ammo , fuel if they don't deal with them as expected.

And I stop now because this is so far off-track, I can only congratulate you to this effort to turn a pointless thread into a open can of worms.

1hadhq wrote:Nice attempts. But sorry not interested enough to deal with it that late ( 0100 ).
I apologize if I accidentally bashed anything you hold dear.

No worries. People have different things they like/dislike, so it's more or less inevitable that it carries over into a debate on some level, like my constant yammering about the Space Wolves' plot armour.

Still waiting on that supposed contradiction, though. Or are you retracting that comment? Because what I am holding dear is my reputation as fluff-nut.

1hadhq wrote:None of my claims contradicted GW. They do however share a certain level of incompatibility with your views.

Oh? Do point them out, please.

1hadhq wrote: Right now, its the 1st of September the new dawn of 40k, confirmed by GW'S launch of the starter, all hail 6th ed!
So please get off of that path to a troll-cave. We both know that I did not say you should drop 3rd , 4th and 5th ed.

No, actually I don't know why you brought it up in the first place. That's why I was asking.
People around here all have different ideas what qualifies as a "valid" source, after all, so clearing up what we go by is important for any debate.

1hadhq wrote:Can't prod them like cattle 24/7 , given Cruddys idea of organization.

You can tell them "go there" or "camp", though. How do you think it works for Ogryns?

1hadhq wrote:
No.

Yes.

1hadhq wrote:So this irrelevant autonomy has what to do with the fact of the IG commonly deployed away from their home turf?

Nothing. What has literacy or lack thereof to do with this fact?

1hadhq wrote:With the fact that an overall command can move millions of them without translators?

Source pls.

1hadhq wrote:With the fact that even the lowliest level of technology increases the benefits of the ability to read on its way further up to a point where those inable to are near useless.

Obviously, the fact that a single trooper's literacy or lack thereof is rather meaningless if he's never going to hold a book in his hand anyways, when all of these things are dealt with by other, more suitable personnell.

You really must think that all Imperial worlds have some sort of school system where people learn their alphabets. Since you already brought up Hive worlds as a vast source of manpower: Do you honestly believe that all those gangs of underhive street thugs that get turned into IG regiments train their youngsters in the art of reading in the midst of their gang wars? Because it's oh-so important for their pitiful lives that have them beg for scraps on the streets, harvest people for organs or wither away in some giant manufactorium where they screw cogs all day long? If so, I'm sorry, but I just don't see it that way.

1hadhq wrote:I think you should accept the fact the IG operates on a mix of WW1 tactics and design plus hi-tech weapons. Not a place for napoleonic era line infantry, nor ancient phalanx or any other example you will come up with.

I think the Mordian Iron Guard and the Asgardian Rangers would like to have a word with you, to name just two examples. You can find more in the 3E Guard Codex; it has a rather impressive list of how diverse the Imperial Guard can be. The Patrians look a bit like Maya, even.

1hadhq wrote:May also point to the supply of the IG ,the munitorum, which is able to interact with the IG Galaxy wide and as they are as bureaucratic as anyone else in logistics, they will insist in filled forms, in correct identifications of any goods and there is no way in hell an illiterate bunch of savages gets any food, water, ammo , fuel if they don't deal with them as expected.

And this requires the common soldier in that regiment to be literate how ...?

1hadhq wrote:And I stop now because this is so far off-track, I can only congratulate you to this effort to turn a pointless thread into a open can of worms.

I am open to continue this via private message, too. I just can't stand what I am convinced are false claims to be posted where everyone can see them. People might end up actually believing it. I'm sure you feel likewise, else you wouldn't have gone through all this effort yourself.

 Jayden63 wrote:

Lynata wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:Logan Grimnar literally slaughtered both a Grey Knights grandmaster and an Inquisitor Lord shortly after that, in The Emperor's Gift.

Okay, a novel then. I'll keep that out of my personal interpretation, as I think there would be repercussions for this.

What some people who like to keep bringing this up often forget is who did the cutting. It was Logan Grimnar who did it. Not some wet behind the ears Bloodclaw. This guy has been the Chapter master (Great Wolf) of the entire Space Wolves organization for over 700 years. Who knows how long he was in the service of the IOM before making that title. His heroic deeds and selfless servitude to the IOM is legendary. The Sagas of his deeds fill entire rooms in the Great Hall of the Fang.

That makes precisely zero difference. The only thing, IMO, that prevented the annihilation of the SW was the fact that Inquisitor in question was extremely unpopular, to the point where an organised 'resistance' had sprung up within the Inquisition ranks with the aim of assassinating him. The situations surrounding the various infractions by the SW must also be taken into account. Teleporting onto the bridge of an enemy warship actively engaged in a bombardment on your homeworld and killing the enemy commander is a very different situation to murdering an Inquisitor in cold blood.

The Inquisition has the capacity to eradicate chapters of Marines, regardless of their history or standing in the Imperium, and has done so in the past. The SW in particular are vulnerable, having isolated themselves from the Ecclesiarchy as well as the Inquisition and Administratum. None of the heavy hitters in the Imperium are going to defend them, if the decision were made to excommunicate them.

http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k/ia/w40k_ia_renegades.html

^ this website actually hosts the Index Astartes article I mentioned earlier. Well worth a read!