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This weekend I played in a 3000 point team tournament with my wife. I fielded 1500 points of Chaos Marines and she brought Daemons. After this tournament, I truly do not see how people consider Daemons to be playable in 6th edition even with allies. The only viable list options seem to be Tzeetch and Nurgle heavy lists lead by a Blood Thirster.

Flamers are absolutely devastating. Bloodletters and Daemonettes are next to worthless as they will get shot after deepstrike, on the opponents turn and again when they try to charge in. These units are just too expensive to field in numbers large enough to soak those casualties.

Fiends, exalted chariots, and soul grinders all suffer from this aspect as well with the soul grinder at least having a shooting attack.

It seems Pink Horrors, Flamers, Screamers, nurglings and Plague bearers and Daemon Princes (with wings) are going to be the only way to go.

As far as HQ's go Heralds of Tzeetch on chariots and the Bloodthirster seem the only viable option.

However, even taking all this into account. Only half the army shows up first turn, has to deepstrike so has a large chance for mishaps (we had at least one each game) and then the rest of the army comes in via deep strike and reserves. This means that the opponent is going to get a full round (maybe more if your reserve rolls are horrible) to just pummel half your army without you being able to really strike back.

I know I have seen people say that Daemons are playable in 6th but I want them to show me how and not just math hammering it because that truly does not hold up when they hit the table.

Fateweaver Flying Circus /w Tally

 Amaya wrote:
Fateweaver Flying Circus /w Tally

Elaborate, what does this list look like and how many points is it. (Tally?)

How many games has your wife played with her Daemons? They take a bit of getting used to, but I've found them excellent in 6th. My army has a good mix of Tzeentch/Nurgle/Khorne i.e. fateweaver, bloodthirster, crushers, flamers, screamers, horrors, maybe a daemon prince or two, and I have lost once in 6th edition, with wins over armies I never would have beaten in 5th with my daemons i.e. GKs, BA etc.

I think its a little bit of a stretch to completely write off an army because they underperformed in one tournament you''ve seen them in. They require a bit of finesse, and you're right, the fact that the army is split in two and troops like bletters and daemonettes are fragile mean that you have to pick your deep strike locations and waves carefully. Look around at some of the lists that are popping up on this forum, there are a few competitive builds out there.

On second look at the units you've mentioned, it seems like alot of the units you've mentioned lack synergy together. With daemons you really have to pick a style and build your army to it, you can't just throw together chariots/bloodletters/princes and hope for the best. Again, just have a look around the forum, there are some very good daemon lists out there that you could look at for inspiration.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've actually not seen a flying circus with epidemius, how would that work? Do you run it with nurgle princes/plaguebearers? I would have thought that the flying circus portion would outrun the other nurgle units, but I suppose with breath on the princes you could get the tally up pretty quickly.

You can do it the cheese way with Plague Bomb or with Fateweaver, Epidemius, Plaguebearers, 3 Winged Nurgle Daemon Princes, add in support as you see fit. For the flying MCs and Epidemius, you're paying 1043. You can fit in 50 Plaguebearers in addition that for 1850.

I've found Daemons to be much stronger in 6th, especially with the recent changes to Flamers and Screamers.

I just got best general in a 2500 point local tournament (at the local Battle Bunker) with a list that looked like this:

HQ - Fateweaver + Bloodthirster
Elites - 4 units of Flamers (two 4 man, two three man)
Troops- 4 units of 5 Horrors w/Bolt, one of them with the Changeling, one unit of 9 Plaguebearers
Fast Attack - 1 unit of 6 Screamers ( I love these now )
Heavy - 3 Daemon Princes (Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt, Breath, Wings, Iron Hide)
Fortification (required for this tournament) - Skyshield platform

None of the games were even close. Each game of the three ended with my opponent either tabled, or conceding on turn 4 or 5 because they had only one or two units left on the board with no hope of contesting or denying an objective, where I still had almost all of my army intact. I would generally lose a couple squads of Flamers or Horrors, but I lost no MCs the entire tournament other than one to a Deep Strike mishap.

I used to run crushers, but they're just too slow (relatively) with the addition of the FMC rules in 6th. Adding in the power sword and Furious Charge nerf and they're just not worth the points anymore IMO. I've never run Daemonettes, most of the ones that came in the Army boxes I've purchased are still unassembled. I've only used Bloodletters a few times and I've been mostly disappointed with them, even in 5th when Furious Charge and Power weapons were better.

In conclusion, I think Daemons have only gotten better, and I never thought they were that bad in 5th, given that you had a good list (Fatecrusher or similar). I

 undertow wrote:
I've found Daemons to be much stronger in 6th, especially with the recent changes to Flamers and Screamers.

I just got best general in a 2500 point local tournament (at the local Battle Bunker) with a list that looked like this:

HQ - Fateweaver + Bloodthirster
Elites - 4 units of Flamers (two 4 man, two three man)
Troops- 4 units of 5 Horrors w/Bolt, one of them with the Changeling, one unit of 9 Plaguebearers
Fast Attack - 1 unit of 6 Screamers ( I love these now )
Heavy - 3 Daemon Princes (Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt, Breath, Wings, Iron Hide)
Fortification (required for this tournament) - Skyshield platform

None of the games were even close. Each game of the three ended with my opponent either tabled, or conceding on turn 4 or 5 because they had only one or two units left on the board with no hope of contesting or denying an objective, where I still had almost all of my army intact. I would generally lose a couple squads of Flamers or Horrors, but I lost no MCs the entire tournament other than one to a Deep Strike mishap.

I used to run crushers, but they're just too slow (relatively) with the addition of the FMC rules in 6th. Adding in the power sword and Furious Charge nerf and they're just not worth the points anymore IMO. I've never run Daemonettes, most of the ones that came in the Army boxes I've purchased are still unassembled. I've only used Bloodletters a few times and I've been mostly disappointed with them, even in 5th when Furious Charge and Power weapons were better.

In conclusion, I think Daemons have only gotten better, and I never thought they were that bad in 5th, given that you had a good list (Fatecrusher or similar). I

What changes would you make to this for 1500?

I haven't played at 1500 since the rules for Flamers and Screamers were updated, so this is just preliminary. Right now, I'd drop two squads of horrors, the two 3 man squads of Flamers, two of the Daemon Princes. I'd reduce the size of the Screamer group to 4, and the Plaguebearer squad to 5.

At this point I'd keep the Skyshield, as it worked pretty well at 2500, but I might change my mind after some playtesting.

The wings on the DPs are expensive but so worth it now.

The only question for deamons is whether to get as many flamers as you can, or whether to go for a flying circus.

I've played mono-Tzeentch throughout 6th, both of the possible builds are borderline broken.

Someone mentioned 1500 points, this is a bit low for flying circus but can do flamer spam just fine.

I would run

fateweaver

horrors*5, icon
horrors*5, icon, changeling
horrors*5
horrors*5

flamers*9
flamers*9
flamers*9

That gives me 1349, I'd use the rest of the points to bulk out some of the horrors. Actually I'd get an Aegis too.

Tactics isn't hard. Deep-strike in your own DZ with a horror in each wave. Swoop the Fateweaver and jump the flamers forwards and wreck gak up.

If your enemy is extra nice, they will run up to you and make it easier

Use the horrors to claim objectives. The enemy will be throwing everything at the flamers/fateweaver so they'll probably be unscathed.

Shoulda used all nurgle daemons and Epidemus with your army while your wife used all plague marines and mark of nurgle units for hers.

Just for the lulz.

BlaxicanX wrote:
Shoulda used all nurgle daemons and Epidemus with your army while your wife used all plague marines and mark of nurgle units for hers.

Just for the lulz.

You have our armies backwards there champ. Oh and I only play Slaanesh dedicated Marines and she favors all the Gods.

 Rivet wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
Shoulda used all nurgle daemons and Epidemus with your army while your wife used all plague marines and mark of nurgle units for hers.

Just for the lulz.

You have our armies backwards there champ. Oh and I only play Slaanesh dedicated Marines and she favors all the Gods.

So you restrict the units you're willing to use, go to a single tourney, and then complain that your unoptomized list had a bad time... Not sure what to say here.

We have been to more than one tournament, I typically do well with my Chaos Marines. She has been working on different lists to both be optimal and that fit her play style and we have continuously had trouble.

I am taking everyone's advice into account here.

I am not complaining about our placement, we finished 4th over all in the tournament.

I am seeking insight into how people have made Daemons playable as we noticed some extreme flaws in the units in the game.

Daemons seem extremely limited in what units can be competitive in any way shape or form in 6th edition. I would say easily half the codex's worth of troops are not usable. I can understand one thing here or there not being usable but half the codex?

As I have seen in the responses so far, there are really only two builds that are competitive and it is unfortunate that competitive == playable at this point.

Where as with my Chaos marines I can take a list that people might not consider competitive but it would still be playable and do very well. I would only really consider bikes and raptors to be unplayable for Chaos Marines where I have plenty of other options available. With the Daemons, it is looking like Bloodletters, Daemonettes, Seekers, Fiends, BloodCrushers, Fleshhounds, Exalted Chariot of Slaanesh (and the regular Slaanesh Chariots and Hellflayers), and SoulGrinders are not worth bringing to the table.

 Rivet wrote:

Where as with my Chaos marines I can take a list that people might not consider competitive but it would still be playable and do very well. I would only really consider bikes and raptors to be unplayable for Chaos Marines where I have plenty of other options available. With the Daemons, it is looking like Bloodletters, Daemonettes, Seekers, Fiends, BloodCrushers, Fleshhounds, Exalted Chariot of Slaanesh (and the regular Slaanesh Chariots and Hellflayers), and SoulGrinders are not worth bringing to the table.

You're way off on your assessment for what isn't playable in the Chaos SM Dex; Nurgle bikers are amazing. You also missed the fact that Spawn, Lesser Daemons, and Greater Daemons are other units that should never be used.

As for the Daemon's codex, I also think you're way off base. You just need to play them differently now; that tends to happen between editions. Change up the list, play more games, and find a way to make it work.

 Rivet wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
Shoulda used all nurgle daemons and Epidemus with your army while your wife used all plague marines and mark of nurgle units for hers.

Just for the lulz.

You have our armies backwards there champ. Oh and I only play Slaanesh dedicated Marines and she favors all the Gods.

Your still not optimizing. I'd shoot C: D over slaaneshi CSM.

I have to say, alot of these complaints full under "well DUH".
Like daemonettes and bloodletters getting shot up. T3, 5++. T4, 5++. Both one wound each. HAS to deepstrike. So your going to be needing large blocks of them, oh wait they actually have a decent price tag to them! like, space marine style price tag!
...well DUH.

Daemons seem extremely limited in what units can be competitive in any way shape or form in 6th edition. I would say easily half the codex's worth of troops are not usable. I can understand one thing here or there not being usable but half the codex?

you have 4 troop choices, 5 if you include non scoring nurglings.
C:SM has scouts and tacs. 2.
C:SW has GH and bloodclaws. 2.
C:Orks has da boyz and da grots. 2.
Even at "half" your "usable" troops, you still have as many troops as other codices. Except not all theirs are really equal either.

I could keep going, but-

As I have seen in the responses so far, there are really only two builds that are competitive and it is unfortunate that competitive == playable at this point.

Do you mean competitive =/= playable?
I fail to see how the competitive options make the game unplayable. There is nothing in a list to stop you from actually playing the game. If you mean unfun, I am completely with you. No one said competing was fun. It makes you feel good especially when you win, and feel better than others. But no one claimed it was fun

 Rivet wrote:

Where as with my Chaos marines I can take a list that people might not consider competitive but it would still be playable and do very well. I would only really consider bikes and raptors to be unplayable for Chaos Marines where I have plenty of other options available. With the Daemons, it is looking like Bloodletters, Daemonettes, Seekers, Fiends, BloodCrushers, Fleshhounds, Exalted Chariot of Slaanesh (and the regular Slaanesh Chariots and Hellflayers), and SoulGrinders are not worth bringing to the table.

Your list of unplayable units is pretty strange. Fiends and crushers are some of the best units of the codex, and I've also seen seekers used very well. If you throw everything together and expect it to work it won't happen, you'll have to make a decision on how you want your army to play and then select your units based on it. I.e. one of the guys at our shop went to the ETC tournament, albeit with 5th rules, and competed very well with an army consisting of heralds of slaanesh on chariots, fiends, crushers, un-upgraded daemon princes and plaguebearers as troops.

Crushers are excellent with fateweaver, who gives them the ability to absorb alot of punishment. You just have to drop them in your opponents face so they have to shoot them, and then your more maneuverable killy stuff like screamers, flamers and flying creatures can fly over them on your second turn and batter stuff. Fiends are excellent at killing pretty much anything on the charge with their bucketload of rending attacks. Grinders can be good, but they will attract every anti-tank weapon on the board, so against armies like guard they will not live long.

I think perhaps you need to pick units that work with each other a bit better, and not jump to conclusions declaring units 'unplayable' because you haven't found a way to use them effectively. Some units are just useless, like beasts of nurgle/heralds of nurgle/furies, but many of the ones you've named as not worth bringing can be very competitive choices.

amasokka88 wrote:

 Rivet wrote:

Where as with my Chaos marines I can take a list that people might not consider competitive but it would still be playable and do very well. I would only really consider bikes and raptors to be unplayable for Chaos Marines where I have plenty of other options available. With the Daemons, it is looking like Bloodletters, Daemonettes, Seekers, Fiends, BloodCrushers, Fleshhounds, Exalted Chariot of Slaanesh (and the regular Slaanesh Chariots and Hellflayers), and SoulGrinders are not worth bringing to the table.

Your list of unplayable units is pretty strange. Fiends and crushers are some of the best units of the codex, and I've also seen seekers used very well. If you throw everything together and expect it to work it won't happen, you'll have to make a decision on how you want your army to play and then select your units based on it. I.e. one of the guys at our shop went to the ETC tournament, albeit with 5th rules, and competed very well with an army consisting of heralds of slaanesh on chariots, fiends, crushers, un-upgraded daemon princes and plaguebearers as troops.

Crushers are excellent with fateweaver, who gives them the ability to absorb alot of punishment. You just have to drop them in your opponents face so they have to shoot them, and then your more maneuverable killy stuff like screamers, flamers and flying creatures can fly over them on your second turn and batter stuff. Fiends are excellent at killing pretty much anything on the charge with their bucketload of rending attacks. Grinders can be good, but they will attract every anti-tank weapon on the board, so against armies like guard they will not live long.

I think perhaps you need to pick units that work with each other a bit better, and not jump to conclusions declaring units 'unplayable' because you haven't found a way to use them effectively. Some units are just useless, like beasts of nurgle/heralds of nurgle/furies, but many of the ones you've named as not worth bringing can be very competitive choices.

Maybe in 5th but I do not see it in 5th. The stipulation of basing these conclusions off of one tournament is its the only tournament played in 6th, however we have attempted to play Daemons quite a bit in 5th. The continued mention of Kairos is a little frustrating as it was mentioned this was a 1500 point game and squeezing Kairos in at that point level does not leave a lot of room to work with in regards to the rest of the army.

I agree that Slaanesh Chariots in 5th were amazing, however, Slaanesh has a new chariot now. It is no longer a Monstrous Creature, it has front armor 11, and is open topped. It does not survive past its arrival turn. Fiends have the potential to be super killy, if they can get there AND if you manage to roll your 6's to rend. More often than not this is not the case. The majority of Daemon units have absolutely no shooting attacks, cannot do anything the turn they arrive. Will roughly get shot for two full rounds (depending on turn order) and then also get shot as they charge in.

@Jihallah: No I meant it the way I said it. The only playable lists are competitive lists. 6th edition and the way the Daemon codex works, forces you to play one of two lists that is super competitive to stand a chance of not having your army destroyed completely by turn two or three. You have to write off the majority of the stuff in your codex, which I argue is not the case for just about any other army. Once again, I will use my Chaos Marines as an example. Most people consider Noise Marines as not competitive but I win a lot more games than I lose using them and that is in a competitive, tournament, environment.


I agree with what most people are saying, about knowing your units, playing them, and finding what works for your play style. My argument is that this just does not work with the Daemons codex because so much of it IS actually unplayable.

I am also not saying that an army has to win all the time to be fun. I have a lot of fun in the games I lose because it teaches me what tactics work and which ones do not. However, the ONLY thing I have learned so far from playing Daemons is that I should not play that army in 40k because unless I play a mono Tzeetch list or a combo Tzeetch and Nurgle list, it is just not going to be fun to play.

I do not have a lot of experience with 6th edition thus far, so bear with me, but I do not think Fiends, Crushers, Seekers et cetera are unplayable.

They all essentially suffer from the same problem they had in 5th edition - they have to weather a turn of shooting before assault. It is complicated slightly by overwatch (but honestly, in general you are not going to lose that many models to overwatch).

The key to Fiends and Crushers now is to run a herald with them for allocation, the same way people do with the Flamers. Also, Fiends and Seekers are very fast now with the movement changes so they tend to get around the board.

As for Grinders, a S8, AP3 pie plate is quite good with the changes to cover, they get a 5+ for onlt 25% cover, which they almost never had before and at AV 13, 4 HP they are more resilient than most people give them credit for. Melta is also less an issue with the changes, and they essentially shrug off most shooting - I expect to see less Missiles too as Mech starts to wane.

There is definitely a transition happening in the game with the changes made to the game and Daemons have also never made great teamates in large games. At 3k points you are right, they get shot right off the table while their ally gets dismantled in detail after that. Part of the problem is th eway they deploy, as the points increase a greater number of shots are coming their way. That said, I have and still do find them to be a competitive (although not top tier) choice in 6th edition, similar to 5th edition.

As for which units to use, I always run several 5 man horror units and then one centralized large unit to hold the line (usually 16-18 Daemonettes). The rest I fill out with a mix of heralds, Seekers, Fiends and Grinders. I still think Daemon Princes are overpriced, in spite of the new flyer rules - the smart players will simply shoot their small arms at them to ground them and unload with heavy weapons afterward.

I always use Princes, party due to my love for the model (the DP model was what drew me to Daemons), but mostly because I love how they work in-game. In 5th at 2k points I generally ran 2-3 winged Princes, despite the 'common' wisdom that wings were overpriced. Yes, they were expensive, but I think the added mobility was worth it. Some games it wasn't, when all the action was happening in a small section of the table. But sometimes the conflict covered the whole board, and being able to move the Princes around a bit faster was a life saver.

Now in 6th, I think winged Princes are a no-brainer. Right now at 2k, I run two winged DPs, a Bloodthirster and Fateweaver. With the new Flamers and Screamers ( a unit I never used to take ) the DPs almost never get shot unless I don't get my preferred wave and Fateweaver isn't on the board. If my opponents want to shoot the DPs instead of the Fateweaver or the Flamers, I'm happy to let them.

I only own one Grinder, and I've been disappointed with it 9 times out of 10. I know that people say that if you're going to use one, you should use two or three, but I just prefer the DPs. Between BS3 and losing it to one lucky shot, I've left it on the shelf for now.

For troops I do the standard 5x Horror squads, but I use a largish unit of Plaguebearers to hold objectives later in the game.

 Rivet wrote:

amasokka88 wrote:

 Rivet wrote:

Where as with my Chaos marines I can take a list that people might not consider competitive but it would still be playable and do very well. I would only really consider bikes and raptors to be unplayable for Chaos Marines where I have plenty of other options available. With the Daemons, it is looking like Bloodletters, Daemonettes, Seekers, Fiends, BloodCrushers, Fleshhounds, Exalted Chariot of Slaanesh (and the regular Slaanesh Chariots and Hellflayers), and SoulGrinders are not worth bringing to the table.

Your list of unplayable units is pretty strange. Fiends and crushers are some of the best units of the codex, and I've also seen seekers used very well. If you throw everything together and expect it to work it won't happen, you'll have to make a decision on how you want your army to play and then select your units based on it. I.e. one of the guys at our shop went to the ETC tournament, albeit with 5th rules, and competed very well with an army consisting of heralds of slaanesh on chariots, fiends, crushers, un-upgraded daemon princes and plaguebearers as troops.

Crushers are excellent with fateweaver, who gives them the ability to absorb alot of punishment. You just have to drop them in your opponents face so they have to shoot them, and then your more maneuverable killy stuff like screamers, flamers and flying creatures can fly over them on your second turn and batter stuff. Fiends are excellent at killing pretty much anything on the charge with their bucketload of rending attacks. Grinders can be good, but they will attract every anti-tank weapon on the board, so against armies like guard they will not live long.

I think perhaps you need to pick units that work with each other a bit better, and not jump to conclusions declaring units 'unplayable' because you haven't found a way to use them effectively. Some units are just useless, like beasts of nurgle/heralds of nurgle/furies, but many of the ones you've named as not worth bringing can be very competitive choices.

Maybe in 5th but I do not see it in 5th. The stipulation of basing these conclusions off of one tournament is its the only tournament played in 6th, however we have attempted to play Daemons quite a bit in 5th. The continued mention of Kairos is a little frustrating as it was mentioned this was a 1500 point game and squeezing Kairos in at that point level does not leave a lot of room to work with in regards to the rest of the army.

I agree that Slaanesh Chariots in 5th were amazing, however, Slaanesh has a new chariot now. It is no longer a Monstrous Creature, it has front armor 11, and is open topped. It does not survive past its arrival turn. Fiends have the potential to be super killy, if they can get there AND if you manage to roll your 6's to rend. More often than not this is not the case. The majority of Daemon units have absolutely no shooting attacks, cannot do anything the turn they arrive. Will roughly get shot for two full rounds (depending on turn order) and then also get shot as they charge in.

@Jihallah: No I meant it the way I said it. The only playable lists are competitive lists. 6th edition and the way the Daemon codex works, forces you to play one of two lists that is super competitive to stand a chance of not having your army destroyed completely by turn two or three. You have to write off the majority of the stuff in your codex, which I argue is not the case for just about any other army. Once again, I will use my Chaos Marines as an example. Most people consider Noise Marines as not competitive but I win a lot more games than I lose using them and that is in a competitive, tournament, environment.


I agree with what most people are saying, about knowing your units, playing them, and finding what works for your play style. My argument is that this just does not work with the Daemons codex because so much of it IS actually unplayable.

I am also not saying that an army has to win all the time to be fun. I have a lot of fun in the games I lose because it teaches me what tactics work and which ones do not. However, the ONLY thing I have learned so far from playing Daemons is that I should not play that army in 40k because unless I play a mono Tzeetch list or a combo Tzeetch and Nurgle list, it is just not going to be fun to play.

The fact that Kairos has been mentioned a few times should tip you off that its a worthwhile suggestion. At 1500 he's still a useful investment, as even if he dies early he will draw a fair amount of firepower. While living he makes your nasty stuff i.e. crushers/fiends/screamers/flamers live much longer, so either invest in him, or deep strike close enough with your assault units that you're getting a second turn charge. Your complaints seem mostly based on getting shot for two turns and then getting overwatched before charging, which either means that you're very unlucky, or consistently doing it wrong.

Chariots don't seem particularly useful now, but anybody could tell you that an AV 11 deep striking unit is not going to survive long, and every codex is due its share of duff units. The fact is that Daemons have a plethora of good units to choose from, and your insistence on blaming it on poor units/codex and not investigating your own list-building makes your statement that daemons are 'unplayable' look pretty silly. If your problem is not enough shooting units, add some tzeentch heralds/soul grinders/daemon princes/lords of change/horrors/flamers and try to make that work for you, otherwise just accept the lack of shooting and use the great assault potential of daemons to your advantage. I would suggest embracing their maneuverability, as my army uses a mix of Khorne/Nurgle/Tzeentch and has been having success with the speed that tzeentch gives you combined with the killyness and staying power of crushers. Nurgle, as always, is good for having plaguebearers to cower on objectives.

In short, every codex has a fair amount of poor units, I don't think Daemons suffer much worse than any other codex out there, and when compared to some are considerably better off.

I've found daemons to be pretty playable especially with the update to flamers and I'm relatively new to them. I've played a handful of 1500pt games with my own daemons and I do not use Fateweaver. He's got cool rules and all and I am sure he is worth it, but I can field a lot more stuff at 1500pts to outnumber my opponent with a rainbow army of death . That and I don't even own him so I work with what I've got. Personally I've had a lot of luck with bloodletters, horrors, and (to an extent) crushers. I usually run a thirster, and 2 squads of 3 alpha-strike flamers as standard. With the new rules and from what has happened in my own games the flamers can take a surprising amount of punishment especially when they come down and mess up 1 or 2 of your opponents units completely. They are a giant target and if your opponent can't wipe both squads by your turn 3 or has wasted all his effort on your 3rd turn that is when your bloodletters, daemonettes, ect. really shine since the opponent has been so focused on your flamers (and rightfully so). When it comes to letters I run them at least 15 dudes, and I plan on running daemonettes at 19 + Herald w/musk/pavane (or simply the Masque). Horrors I would actually avoid the whole MSUs unless you are facing tons of armor and need the bolt. Maybe it's just what I've faced, but most of my opponents run hybrid or horde, and generally the Thirster is there to deal with armor. Also 10 plague bearers are ridiculously resilient and I would also never run them as a 5-man. Personal preference though I suppose considering the net seems to love running them as 5-7 dudes, but I've had great luck with 10 man squads or higher with daemons' troops choices. Crushers are an interesting beast. Lately they haven't been getting into combat at all or they don't come in (usually the majority of my games for w/e reason), but they do draw fire away from other things much like the flamers.

Btw what does your wife's list and waves look like anyway?

You should post both the CSM and Daemon lists you usedso we can get an idea of what went wrong.

 Rivet wrote:

@Jihallah: No I meant it the way I said it. The only playable lists are competitive lists. 6th edition and the way the Daemon codex works, forces you to play one of two lists that is super competitive to stand a chance of not having your army destroyed completely by turn two or three.

Well You sound like a darling to play with

since other folk have success outside of your two lists, I think you're crying about the sky falling in. One of the first suggestions was flying circus with tally. You had to ask what it was and what tally was. You had to ask what TALLY is. It really does appear you've done little research for a game that you play just to win, lost your tournament and now are crying sweet delicious tears. Most people looking for competitive options in the codex look at epidemeus and go "hmmm... tally eh... lots of buffs eh... ARMYWIDE 3+ FNP and IGNORE ARMOR? hmmm.... maybe i can write a strong list... a...competitive list...with this named character... hmmm..." So if the only playable lists are competitive lists, I cringe at what the C list might look like since it seems the codex hasn't been explored too well.

 Rivet wrote:
My argument is that this just does not work with the Daemons codex because so much of it IS actually unplayable.

And yet when 6th came out every daemon player and his dog heard of the flying circus. Because we realized that there was a new unit type- FMC. And since we have access to some of the best MC's... and they have wings... It was pretty quick for people to start writing up FMC lists.

Have you ever proxxied units to try and see if you can work them into and army? I'd suggest theory hammering and TESTING the ideas. As a couple you have an advantage- You can whip up lists and test them on each other (hey you care about competitive lists right?). Playing against each other will strengthen your understanding of each others pro's and con's as a general of little plastic mangs/daemons. Since competitive playing is important right ?

 Canadian 5th wrote:
You should post both the CSM and Daemon lists you usedso we can get an idea of what went wrong.

QFT

Whitewolf - keep in mind that the Masque is not an IC, so she cannot join your Daemonettes. If she was, she would probably be one of the best HQ units in the Daemon codex.

My problem with Daemon princes is they just auto lose to some matchups - Dark Eldar comes to mind. 12 Poison shots per venom plus blasters means a dead DP - Fate also suffers a bit from the same issue.

Huh, didn't notice that...well that's sad. Oh well, guess a herald will still give me a similar effect.

@Jihallah: I am not saying I only play to win. I play to have fun, what I am getting at, is the only lists that stand a chance of winning (not just having fun) are the super competitive lists. As in, if you do not want to be tabled by turn two, you need to run either Tally or flying circus.

I. Do. Not. Play. Daemons. My wife does, forgive me for not knowing the rhetoric for army lists for an army I do not play. I mentioned both of those to her and she knew what I was talking about the moment I said them.

She understands those lists and has been playing around with her codex to see what works and what fits her play style... Beyond those two lists.

If I remember correctly her list was:
Blood Thirster
Tzeetch Herald on Chariot
Two units of 3 flamers
a unit of 3 fiends
a unit of 14 blood letters (with icon)
a unit of 14 Daemonettes
a unit of 4 (or 5) nurglings
Exalted Chariot of Slaanesh
3 screamers
Daemon Prince of Nurgle with wings


I ran two Daemon Princes with wings and Lash
two units of 8 Noise Marines with A. Champ. With Doom Siren and power sword
1 unit of 10 Chaos Marines with Icon of Slaanesh, A. Champ. with Power weapon and two flamers
each unit had a rhino, one with havok launcher
three units of 2 Obliterators.


We took 4th in the tournament. However, it seemed each game her Daemons were decimated and if it had not been a team game, I do not see how the Daemons could have held their own. So I originally posted to get more feed back on what people were doing to make Daemons work.

I have seen a few other games played in 6th with Daemons involved (by other people in our FLGS) and none of the Daemon armies have fared well at all. Despite different combinations.

To be honest, the list your wife brought to the tournament was pretty weak and I would expect it to struggle. Some quick change suggestions...

Run 2 more chariots with the Exalted so you can pass off the glances/pens to them instead of the Exalted - for what they cost they are great.

Nurglings are better than they were, but really shine in a list with Epidemus - otherwise they are bait for overwatch, but that is about it.

Tzeetch chariots are a thing of the past - run the Tzeetch herald on a disc with the unit of flamers all in one large 6 man unit w/ attached herald - Do you have the new rules for flamers? They are excellent now and she is running them in the old configuration.

Fiends should be in 6 man units, otheriwse they do not have the hitting power to break enemies before they attack.

Screamers should be run in units of at least 6 (maybe 9) I run 9 now, I have run 6 before the changes. The new rules for Screamers mean they can vector strike on the turn they arrive and are good in CC.

Hopefully those changes help a bit - Daemons are also all about concentrating power in a local region of the board to get a foothold and limit the damage done early on - that is a bit harder to do with a crowded board and that hurts as well. I have a lot of experience with Daemons in 5th, and some in 6th - they are challenging to play and when they lose...they lose big time, which makes them seem worse than they actually are.

We do have the new rules for flamers and screamers, how are screamers able to vector strike on the turn they arrive, I thought vector strikes were in the movement phase and DS counts as your movement..

 Rivet wrote:
We do have the new rules for flamers and screamers, how are screamers able to vector strike on the turn they arrive, I thought vector strikes were in the movement phase and DS counts as your movement..

Screamers don't actually "Vector Strike," they do Slashing Attacks with their turbo-boost move. Turbo-boost moves are done in the shooting phase.

 Rivet wrote:

If I remember correctly her list was:
Blood Thirster
Tzeetch Herald on Chariot
Two units of 3 flamers
a unit of 3 fiends
a unit of 14 blood letters (with icon)
a unit of 14 Daemonettes
a unit of 4 (or 5) nurglings
Exalted Chariot of Slaanesh
3 screamers
Daemon Prince of Nurgle with wings.

You don't have to take a tally or flying circus list to succeed. That is categorically wrong, and is what people keep trying to tell you. Fair enough, some people go with full-on flying circus/tally lists, but I find it works best to have a couple of FMCs, some flamers, some screamers, some variation in troops, and you won't be "tabled by turn two".

The above comments are correct re: the above list - it seems quite random. Daemonettes I've not had good experience with, and with only two pretty squishy troops they and the bloodletters are bound to be focus fired to death. Nurglings can't score so though durable they're not really worth taking. 3 fiends/screamers is definitely too few, you need ablative wounds to ensure they reach combat in sufficient numbers to not get wiped. One AV 11 open-topped is fail, it will not survive, as said above if you run them at all run them in numbers. Units of three flamers can be ok, but since you've got the tzerald already I would say your wife should run it on a disc with the flamers to increase survivability. I think someone might have already said that as well.

Last of all, a single daemon prince, much like the 2 huge units of squishy troops, and the units of three, is not a threat, and can be easily focus fired to death. Your wife has too many points sunk into huge troops units which will not pay back the investment, and has spread her points too thinly on a selection of small killy units when she should instead concentrate on a couple and make them strong. If you're going with daemon princes, fine, get two. If going with screamers/fiends, 5 or 6 should be the bare minimum.

Again, it has to be said that judging the viability of Daemons as a whole on such a list is a bit silly. The above list has no synergy, and its unsurprising that it got wiped in the games it played.