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As someone who owns a small business and who has worked long hours to meet deadlines and to track down new clients, I'm telling you that without roads, infrastructure, educated people to employee, mail service, the internet, and a million other things (such as Pell Grants that helped me pay for school, so I could do what I'm doing) that I would not have been able to succeed because we'd still be living in the dark ages and I probably would have died of anal bleeding or something equally awful.

What I'm trying to say is this: Anyone that says they are 100% responsible for their success and their success comes from their hard work and aptitude and NOTHING ELSE is either lying, or a despicable person worthy of contempt.

TheHammer wrote:
As someone who owns a small business and who has worked long hours to meet deadlines and to track down new clients, I'm telling you that without roads, infrastructure, educated people to employee, mail service, the internet, and a million other things (such as Pell Grants that helped me pay for school, so I could do what I'm doing) that I would not have been able to succeed because we'd still be living in the dark ages and I probably would have died of anal bleeding or something equally awful.

What I'm trying to say is this: Anyone that says they are 100% responsible for their success and their success comes from their hard work and aptitude and NOTHING ELSE is either lying, or a despicable person worthy of contempt.

I get what you (and d-usa) are saying... I'm just trying to point out the emotional aspect of this... you know, politics.

Stop being willfully ignorant.

You're not just pointing out the politics of it, you're harping on an intellectually dishonest talking point because you don't like Obama because you buy into all of those intellectually dishonest talking points.

 whembly wrote:

TheHammer wrote:
As someone who owns a small business and who has worked long hours to meet deadlines and to track down new clients, I'm telling you that without roads, infrastructure, educated people to employee, mail service, the internet, and a million other things (such as Pell Grants that helped me pay for school, so I could do what I'm doing) that I would not have been able to succeed because we'd still be living in the dark ages and I probably would have died of anal bleeding or something equally awful.

What I'm trying to say is this: Anyone that says they are 100% responsible for their success and their success comes from their hard work and aptitude and NOTHING ELSE is either lying, or a despicable person worthy of contempt.

I get what you (and d-usa) are saying... I'm just trying to point out the emotional aspect of this... you know, politics.

If by politics you mean ignoring what was really said in order to make a point that isn't really there, then you are doing it correctly.

 d-usa wrote:

 whembly wrote:

TheHammer wrote:
As someone who owns a small business and who has worked long hours to meet deadlines and to track down new clients, I'm telling you that without roads, infrastructure, educated people to employee, mail service, the internet, and a million other things (such as Pell Grants that helped me pay for school, so I could do what I'm doing) that I would not have been able to succeed because we'd still be living in the dark ages and I probably would have died of anal bleeding or something equally awful.

What I'm trying to say is this: Anyone that says they are 100% responsible for their success and their success comes from their hard work and aptitude and NOTHING ELSE is either lying, or a despicable person worthy of contempt.

I get what you (and d-usa) are saying... I'm just trying to point out the emotional aspect of this... you know, politics.

If by politics you mean ignoring what was really said in order to make a point that isn't really there, then you are doing it correctly.

Heh... there's validity to that.

I just took umbrage to that comment... and the whole context of it made it worst.

I'm not the only one who feels this way...

What did you take umbrage about? What small business do you know that did not use public roads, public mail, get Small Business Administration loans, not use the labor of workers educated in public education, use the internet, and a million other things.

It is literally the least offensive statement ever.

I don't care about your feelings, I care about facts and reality.

 whembly wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 whembly wrote:

TheHammer wrote:
As someone who owns a small business and who has worked long hours to meet deadlines and to track down new clients, I'm telling you that without roads, infrastructure, educated people to employee, mail service, the internet, and a million other things (such as Pell Grants that helped me pay for school, so I could do what I'm doing) that I would not have been able to succeed because we'd still be living in the dark ages and I probably would have died of anal bleeding or something equally awful.

What I'm trying to say is this: Anyone that says they are 100% responsible for their success and their success comes from their hard work and aptitude and NOTHING ELSE is either lying, or a despicable person worthy of contempt.

I get what you (and d-usa) are saying... I'm just trying to point out the emotional aspect of this... you know, politics.

If by politics you mean ignoring what was really said in order to make a point that isn't really there, then you are doing it correctly.

Heh... there's validity to that.

I just took umbrage to that comment... and the whole context of it made it worst.

I'm not the only one who feels this way...

Just because people feel bad that somebody said the truth, that government helped even though they don't like the government, doesn't make the truth any different.

Maybe next time a business is on fire the fire department should pull up and refuse to put the fire out saying "we didn't build that"...

Yep. This whole conversation about big government has now become an attack on the very existence of civil society.

 Frazzled wrote:
SEC actions are public. Do you have any proof of SEC actions against Romney or Bain related to whatever the hell you are supposedly accusing him of?

A reminder if you lie here you may open yourself to legal liability. Just a reminder.

For the record, I didn;t accuse Romney of anything.

I was just pointing out that the SEC does not swing a .... big mutha truckin' hammer.... at all. It barely swings a feather pillow.

Some of the outfits and get ups are truly breathtaking, we just don't get people doing things like this at our political events.




amazing hat and shirt combo there !




... can't say it's my style or taste, but Texas at least looks more fun than Georgia



.. who knew that "Westworld" was a real place !



..don't get the cheesehat thing ? Anyone ?



.. wasn't he like assassinated ages ago ..?

TheHammer wrote:
Stop being willfully ignorant.

You're not just pointing out the politics of it, you're harping on an intellectually dishonest talking point because you don't like Obama because you buy into all of those intellectually dishonest talking points.

Well, that certainly looks like the pot calling the kettle black.

It's a stupid statement. It's an especially stupid political statement.

 d-usa wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 whembly wrote:

TheHammer wrote:
As someone who owns a small business and who has worked long hours to meet deadlines and to track down new clients, I'm telling you that without roads, infrastructure, educated people to employee, mail service, the internet, and a million other things (such as Pell Grants that helped me pay for school, so I could do what I'm doing) that I would not have been able to succeed because we'd still be living in the dark ages and I probably would have died of anal bleeding or something equally awful.

What I'm trying to say is this: Anyone that says they are 100% responsible for their success and their success comes from their hard work and aptitude and NOTHING ELSE is either lying, or a despicable person worthy of contempt.

I get what you (and d-usa) are saying... I'm just trying to point out the emotional aspect of this... you know, politics.

If by politics you mean ignoring what was really said in order to make a point that isn't really there, then you are doing it correctly.

Heh... there's validity to that.

I just took umbrage to that comment... and the whole context of it made it worst.

I'm not the only one who feels this way...

Just because people feel bad that somebody said the truth, that government helped even though they don't like the government, doesn't make the truth any different.

Maybe next time a business is on fire the fire department should pull up and refuse to put the fire out saying "we didn't build that"...

It was needlessly insulting. He wasn’t just calling on successful people to pay more in tax but was being dismissive of their accomplishments.

The piece before that, he said (that's, why the overall context is worse):

I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.

Lemme get this straight... he's always struck by people who take credit for their own successes? Obviously, every successful outcome in life, and every failed one, arises from a combination of internal and external factors. But it's the tone when he said this, amused by the very idea of people taking credit for their achievements, was very off-putting.

It's like... we're not supposed to be proud of something we've achieved in our lives. Really!??!

That speech was JARRING.






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 Easy E wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
SEC actions are public. Do you have any proof of SEC actions against Romney or Bain related to whatever the hell you are supposedly accusing him of?

A reminder if you lie here you may open yourself to legal liability. Just a reminder.

For the record, I didn;t accuse Romney of anything.

I was just pointing out that the SEC does not swing a .... big mutha truckin' hammer.... at all. It barely swings a feather pillow.

Tell that to Enron and Arthur Anderson (psst, they ain't around)... beside, it was BECAUSE of those two companies that the SEC got stronger (Sarbanes–Oxley Act?).


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Red... yes, we're strange...

..don't get the cheesehat thing ? Anyone ?

WI cheese... GREENBAY PACKERS!

Where have I been intellectually dishonest here, Seaward? Please point out an example.

And, yes, whembly: if you believe that hard work and intelligence alone is enough to guarantee success you are someone who believes in fantasy. For most people hard work and intelligence are incredibly important so they can capitalize on a lucky break, or otherwise take advantage of advantageous circumstances, but those two qualities alone are not at all required for success.

Believing they are just means you can shrug your shoulders and smile as you take away every social program that assist the poor.


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And it's foolish to believe the SEC is strong or even effective. Look into regulatory capture and a host of other issues if you want to know why.

TheHammer wrote:
Where have I been intellectually dishonest here, Seaward? Please point out an example.

I was more meaning you were being willfully ignorant.

Let me ask you this: did the United States of America build the Space Shuttle program? How about a blue water navy? A transcontinental railroad? Interstate highways? All were built using ideas, mechanisms, and, in some cases, labor and products from other countries. Does that make them less ours?

TheHammer wrote:
Where have I been intellectually dishonest here, Seaward? Please point out an example.

And, yes, whembly: if you believe that hard work and intelligence alone is enough to guarantee success you are someone who believes in fantasy. For most people hard work and intelligence are incredibly important so they can capitalize on a lucky break, or otherwise take advantage of advantageous circumstances, but those two qualities alone are not at all required for success.

Believing they are just means you can shrug your shoulders and smile as you take away every social program that assist the poor.

STOP. PUTTING. WORDS. IN. MY. MOUTH.

Where did I say that want to take away every social program that assist the poor??

And I've already said my piece about Obama's statement.

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And it's foolish to believe the SEC is strong or even effective. Look into regulatory capture and a host of other issues if you want to know why.

And its VERY foolish to ignore the SEC.

But isn't it equally dismissive and insulting for the people that are that upset about the statement to basically say and imply this:

"Forget the teachers that educated me and my employees, forget the SBA that gave me a loan, forget the police and fire department that protects my property, forget the city that keeps the roads open. Nobody had anything to do with my success except ME ME ME.!"

Would more than 1 person from outside the US please vote for the Republicans? You're making it seem like they're grossly out of touch with anything the world outside the US would call reality.

That's rude.

 Easy E wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
SEC actions are public. Do you have any proof of SEC actions against Romney or Bain related to whatever the hell you are supposedly accusing him of?

A reminder if you lie here you may open yourself to legal liability. Just a reminder.

For the record, I didn;t accuse Romney of anything.

I was just pointing out that the SEC does not swing a .... big mutha truckin' hammer.... at all. It barely swings a feather pillow.

Mmmm...often thats not the case. Get convicted of insider trading and you're going to jail. Ask Marth Stewart.

 Chongara wrote:
Would more than 1 person from outside the US please vote for the Republicans? You're making it seem like they're grossly out of touch with anything the world outside the US would call reality.

That's rude.

And... we care why?

 Seaward wrote:

TheHammer wrote:
Where have I been intellectually dishonest here, Seaward? Please point out an example.

I was more meaning you were being willfully ignorant.

Let me ask you this: did the United States of America build the Space Shuttle program? How about a blue water navy? A transcontinental railroad? Interstate highways? All were built using ideas, mechanisms, and, in some cases, labor and products from other countries. Does that make them less ours?

What are you even talking about? Are you really trying to compare the community efforts that went into each of those to what we are talking about above?

Of course the United States used European (sometimes Nazi, not really a proud moment) scientists for our space program, Chinese immigrants to build the transcontinental railroad, and lots of other people and ideas from around the world. In many cases those people became American and contributed to the American civil society. More to the point, it's difficult to talk about any of those successes without also including the stories of those from outside America.

So, yeah, the United States built the Space Shuttle program, but people openly acknowledge that there were many scientists, engineers, manufacturers, and ideas that were not native to the United States that went into this project. Sure, it's an American success but people don't put their fingers into their ears and start shouting when others mention how outside people may have been helpful.

I'm just completely confused about what your point is.

What we're talking about is a situation where President Obama would mention that Chinese labor was essential to the Intercontinental Railroad being built and people getting furious at him for insinuating that Americans didn't build it all by themselves.

Or, if you want to take a more cynical view of things, this is a conversation by successful business people who became successful, in part, because of the benefits given to them by civil society and now that they have their success they want to destroy the very civil society that benefited them so they can stifle competition.

 d-usa wrote:
But isn't it equally dismissive and insulting for the people that are that upset about the statement to basically say and imply this:

"Forget the teachers that educated me and my employees, forget the SBA that gave me a loan, forget the police and fire department that protects my property, forget the city that keeps the roads open. Nobody had anything to do with my success except ME ME ME.!"

*sigh*
No... because, no one is really saying that and I think you know it.

 whembly wrote:

TheHammer wrote:
Where have I been intellectually dishonest here, Seaward? Please point out an example.

And, yes, whembly: if you believe that hard work and intelligence alone is enough to guarantee success you are someone who believes in fantasy. For most people hard work and intelligence are incredibly important so they can capitalize on a lucky break, or otherwise take advantage of advantageous circumstances, but those two qualities alone are not at all required for success.

Believing they are just means you can shrug your shoulders and smile as you take away every social program that assist the poor.

STOP. PUTTING. WORDS. IN. MY. MOUTH.

Where did I say that want to take away every social program that assist the poor??

And I've already said my piece about Obama's statement.

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And it's foolish to believe the SEC is strong or even effective. Look into regulatory capture and a host of other issues if you want to know why.

And its VERY foolish to ignore the SEC.

Are you going to vote for Romney / Ryan? Then yes, you do want to cut services to the poor in massive and horrible ways. This whole conversation about "You didn't build that" really helps explain the rationale and thinking behind why they plan on cutting those services.

Actions > Words


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 whembly wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
But isn't it equally dismissive and insulting for the people that are that upset about the statement to basically say and imply this:

"Forget the teachers that educated me and my employees, forget the SBA that gave me a loan, forget the police and fire department that protects my property, forget the city that keeps the roads open. Nobody had anything to do with my success except ME ME ME.!"

*sigh*
No... because, no one is really saying that and I think you know it.

Except the right IS saying that. They want to cut government because government, they say, does nothing for nobody except for those lazy welfare queens and "young bucks" who spend their food stamps on malt liquor.

Are you not paying attention, or do you not see that there is a movement of older white Americans who quite literally want to tear the government down and most of the things it does to foster a productive economy?

 Chongara wrote:
Would more than 1 person from outside the US please vote for the Republicans? You're making it seem like they're grossly out of touch with anything the world outside the US would call reality.

That's rude.

The Republicans are bat-gak insane. The rest of the world has noticed this.

 whembly wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
But isn't it equally dismissive and insulting for the people that are that upset about the statement to basically say and imply this:

"Forget the teachers that educated me and my employees, forget the SBA that gave me a loan, forget the police and fire department that protects my property, forget the city that keeps the roads open. Nobody had anything to do with my success except ME ME ME.!"

*sigh*
No... because, no one is really saying that and I think you know it.

So the big stage at the RNC with the letters "We DID build that" isn't saying that?

Because that is easily how people can and will interpret that.

The same way that Obama didn't say that people didn't work hard to build their businesses, but I think you know that.

 Testify wrote:

 Chongara wrote:
Would more than 1 person from outside the US please vote for the Republicans? You're making it seem like they're grossly out of touch with anything the world outside the US would call reality.

That's rude.

The Republicans are bat-gak insane. The rest of the world has noticed this.

Sounds like somebody hates Freedom.

Anyone who hates Ronald Reagan's greatest invention can't be taken seriously.

TheHammer wrote:
What we're talking about is a situation where President Obama would mention that Chinese labor was essential to the Intercontinental Railroad being built and people getting furious at him for insinuating that Americans didn't build it all by themselves.

Not correct, I'm afraid. We're talking about a situation where President Obama would mention that Chinese labor was essential to the Intercontinental Railroad being built, thus saying, "America didn't build that." Because, as you've argued so strenuously above, it's unfair to claim that an individual or an entity built something unless they and only they had anything to do with it.

No.

Let's go with the entire quotation from that speech:

If you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something — there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there. If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

So, yeah, he was referring to the infrastructure, civil society, and other outside mechanisms society has created that enabled companies to be built. Those with companies didn't build the internet, or all the roads they use, and whatever.

All he is saying is that one should be aware and honest in acknowledging that it is in all of our best interests that there exists a civil society, infrastructure, and etc so that enterprise can actually exist and prosper.

As far as the Intercontinental Railroad goes, this would be like President Obama saying that the Union Pacific Railroad did not create China and its people.


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More to the point, companies and individuals pay taxes and these all go towards the collective good which we can all then utilize for our own prosperity. Because that's how a mature society operates.

Sweet baby Jesus, is it US election time again??

I always promise not too, but every 4 years, I stay up all night watching a map of America turn blue or red, listen to some pundits that have been wheeled out to say the obvious, and end up getting drunk. I've been doing this since the mid 1990s :( The question is why do I keep putting myself through it? I've sat through Jimmy Carter's inauguration, I've listened to interviews with Bob Dole (never again!!) and wondered why a country with lots of smart and kind people put themselves through it

TheHammer wrote:
No.

Yes, actually.

Let's go with the entire quotation from that speech:

I'm familiar with it.

So, yeah, he was referring to the infrastructure, civil society, and other outside mechanisms society has created that enabled companies to be built. Those with companies didn't build the internet, or all the roads they use, and whatever.

He was saying that, yes. Then he went on to say that if you've got a business, you didn't build it. It's a fundamentally different statement from what came before. It goes much, much farther than, "The apparatus of civil society allowed you to create a business." The first question that springs to mind is...who did build it, if you didn't?

As far as the Intercontinental Railroad goes, this would be like President Obama saying that the Union Pacific Railroad did not create China and its people.

Do they even do analogies in the verbal section of the SAT anymore?

Misvoted...since I am an intelligent person, I'd of course vote for Republicans.