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Normally I would agree that deff rollas are an auto include, but some of the changes in 6th make them not as good as they were in 5th. First off battlewagons are less durable. Now before everyone starts say WTF AV14 I would like to remind everyone that the front of the wagon is very narrow and the sides (AV12) are very long making it hard to only present the AV14 to your opponent. Also, with flyers being able to fly on and off table it's about impossible to block an rear armor shot. I now feel it's very important bring even more wagons to ensure you get models downfield and for the price of 3 rollas I can get another wagon.

Next, with a 6 movement for disembark really makes the rolla less useful. Before I would just ram a rhino with my "Ork melta gun" from 12 inches away, disembark, shoot the unit, then assault. Now if my wagon even makes it that far I will still ram the rhino, not disembark, shot the unit from inside the wagon, and end my turn. The next turn I get hit with melta, with it probably exploding killing about half on my orks, assaulted making me a S4 with 1 less attack giving the marines a good chances of winning the combat.

Lastly, with vehicles being much easier to kill in a PK and disembark only on a 6inch movement the rolla again loses some of its usefulness.

What dose DakkaDakka think, are Deff rollas worth the points in 6th or are more wagans needed.

 sickening wrote:
Normally I would agree that deff rollas are an auto include, but some of the changes in 6th make them not as good as they were in 5th. First off battlewagons are less durable. Now before everyone starts say WTF AV14 I would like to remind everyone that the front of the wagon is very narrow and the sides (AV12) are very long making it hard to only present the AV14 to your opponent. Also, with flyers being able to fly on and off table it's about impossible to block an rear armor shot. I now feel it's very important bring even more wagons to ensure you get models downfield and for the price of 3 rollas I can get another wagon.

Disagree. First of all, they have gotten more durable against glancing shots and anything with AP3 or higher, which includes a lot of those guns aiming for side-shots. Against AP2 and 1 penetrating hits they have stayed the same as in 5th.
Flyers can't be in your rear before turn 3, by that time your battlewagon should have delivered their green payload. Non-Vendetta fliers shouldn't be aiming at battlewagon at that time.

Next, with a 6 movement for disembark really makes the rolla less useful. Before I would just ram a rhino with my "Ork melta gun" from 12 inches away, disembark, shoot the unit, then assault. Now if my wagon even makes it that far I will still ram the rhino, not disembark, shot the unit from inside the wagon, and end my turn. The next turn I get hit with melta, with it probably exploding killing about half on my orks, assaulted making me a S4 with 1 less attack giving the marines a good chances of winning the combat.

Sure, you don't open up transports with deff rollas anymore, but transports also have become a lot less common, just like melta guns have. Deff rollas really should be used to crack vehicles which give you trouble, like walkers (who can't DoG anymore!), battletanks or heavy transports like the landraider, ghost arks or other battlewagons.

Lastly, with vehicles being much easier to kill in a PK and disembark only on a 6inch movement the rolla again loses some of its usefulness.

What dose DakkaDakka think, are Deff rollas worth the points in 6th or are more wagans needed.

I've had the same train of thought and had my ass handed to me because of that just yesterday (I got tabled by Tzeench daemons )
If you don't bring a deff rolla, what are you bringing to handle heavy walkers like Soulgrinders, Ironclads or (DC) Furiosos? Or Necron AV13 spam? There are some things which can not be handled by rokkits, deff gunz and nob powerklaws. Relying on a single biker warboss to do that job has brought about a crushing defeat for me yesterday. Tank bustaz need a battlewagon themselves to function, and with the krak-grenade buff kanz are no longer an option for running ahead and punching vehicles (especially not in an army with battlewagons).
Bottom line, it's only 80 points across the army(60 if you get a ram instead), which makes your empty transports vicious threats to vehicles around them. Your opponent is still unlikely to destroy all of them right away, so as soon as you destroy one vehicle with it, you've almost broken even. In return, you've got an ensurance that you have multiple ways to handle high-armor targets. I did not have that ensurance yesterday. My warboss fumbled and did nothing to the first soulcrusher it charged, which then killed him, completely taking away my ability to handle three soul crushers.
Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal and all, but I think it displays the problem quite nicely.

 Jidmah wrote:

Disagree. First of all, they have gotten more durable against glancing shots and anything with AP3 or higher, which includes a lot of those guns aiming for side-shots. Against AP2 and 1 penetrating hits they have stayed the same as in 5th.
Flyers can't be in your rear before turn 3, by that time your battlewagon should have delivered their green payload. Non-Vendetta fliers shouldn't be aiming at battlewagon at that time.

I would not say they are more durable against glancing shot because its way easier to glance out tanks. Sure a glance wont slow you do but they can still kill you. AP2 shots are now +2 and AP1 are +3, you now explode on a 4+ on AP2 shots! Sure flyers wont get an rear shot till turn 3 but some armies (necrons) hide all there troops that you need to kill in the flyers.

Sure, you don't open up transports with deff rollas anymore, but transports also have become a lot less common, just like melta guns have. Deff rollas really should be used to crack vehicles which give you trouble, like walkers (who can't DoG anymore!), battletanks or heavy transports like the landraider, ghost arks or other battlewagons.

Walkers are also much less common now. Sure landraiders are still hard to kill but lemans are now easy to kill with a PK.

I've had the same train of thought and had my ass handed to me because of that just yesterday (I got tabled by Tzeench daemons )
If you don't bring a deff rolla, what are you bringing to handle heavy walkers like Soulgrinders, Ironclads or (DC) Furiosos? Or Necron AV13 spam? There are some things which can not be handled by rokkits, deff gunz and nob powerklaws. Relying on a single biker warboss to do that job has brought about a crushing defeat for me yesterday. Tank bustaz need a battlewagon themselves to function, and with the krak-grenade buff kanz are no longer an option for running ahead and punching vehicles (especially not in an army with battlewagons).
Bottom line, it's only 80 points across the army(60 if you get a ram instead), which makes your empty transports vicious threats to vehicles around them. Your opponent is still unlikely to destroy all of them right away, so as soon as you destroy one vehicle with it, you've almost broken even. In return, you've got an ensurance that you have multiple ways to handle high-armor targets. I did not have that ensurance yesterday. My warboss fumbled and did nothing to the first soulcrusher it charged, which then killed him, completely taking away my ability to handle three soul crushers.
Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal and all, but I think it displays the problem quite nicely.

Yes AV 13 is still hard to kill but hitting rear armor on a 3+ with a S9 PK is still good. I would expect to see walker all but disrepair with the new krak grenades rule.
I'll look back over my list and see if I can find a few points for some rollas.


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Oddly enough, I've found Battlewagons more hardy. The penetration table only kills it on a 6, ap2 brings it back to 5th ed killy, and ap1 is pretty much the same. Remember that a 5 on a penetration dice is Immobilized, rather than wrecked.

In addition, with the right passengers, it's very hard to kill the battlewagon if you don't do it immediately. Burnas / Lootas with Mekboys can just keep restoring hull points. I've had a game where I returned by Battlewagon from 1 hull point left, back to three hull points, twice.

Additionally, deffrollas actually work really well against skimmers now. Gone are the days of Dodge - they now only get their jink save against each glance / penetrate, which is a far cry from a single 3+ to negate the entire ramming action. Add in the fact that Walkers can't DoG, and deffrollas have gotten BETTER. Battlewagons, combined with the snap fire and overwatch rules, have arguably also gotten better.

Orks also suffer relatively less to fliers than other races, due to their high quantity of shots combined with their usual ballistic skill. Even Shoota Boyz can realistically fire at the armour 10 fliers with intention of doing damage. Lootas are, obviously, a fantastic unit for flier targeting. Additionally, as Jidmah pointed out, I have a hard time imagining how fliers will be able to get rear armour shots before turn 3.

 Kharrak wrote:
Remember that a 5 on a penetration dice is Immobilized, rather than wrecked.

A Battlewagon is Wrecked (or rather, Exploded) on a 5.

Exploded on a 5 I believe. Wrecked is when you run out of HP.

Edit: although 'Ard Case can make it not opened topped, even though it does reduce your firing options.

Most people are taking open topped battlewagons, so doesn't that mean you're blowing up on a 5 even with AP 3 and higher weapons?

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Most people are taking open topped battlewagons, so doesn't that mean you're blowing up on a 5 even with AP 3 and higher weapons?

That is true. But that said, my BWs have been even more reliable in 6th as well. I'm losing them a full round later than normal if my unttracked statistical data is to be relied upon.

I will also support the claim that Deffrollas still seem to be as effective as in 5th, regardless of the theory. They have pulled through for me in every game of 6th I have played.

Just a note, though, open topped helps against explosions while it hurts, thanks to the -1S of the explosion.

sickening wrote: Before I would just ram a rhino with my "Ork melta gun" from 12 inches away, disembark, shoot the unit, then assault.

You could just rearrange this slightly. Instead, you could ram the rhino, shoot with the guys inside, then disembark, then assault. Small change to tactics that might well still allow you to do what you want.

Also, perhaps you could consider the cargo inside to be different. More like a battlewagon proper, and less like an up-armored transport. I mean, if the battlewagon rams a transport to death, and there's 20 burnas inside, I'm pretty sure you're still going to do okay with killing the squad inside. You're just not doing it with assault anymore.

 Ailaros wrote:
Just a note, though, open topped helps against explosions while it hurts, thanks to the -1S of the explosion.

No longer, that was 5th edition. S4 all round (except for Trukks, as they use a different damage chart).

sickening wrote: Before I would just ram a rhino with my "Ork melta gun" from 12 inches away, disembark, shoot the unit, then assault.

You could just rearrange this slightly. Instead, you could ram the rhino, shoot with the guys inside, then disembark, then assault. Small change to tactics that might well still allow you to do what you want.

In order to Ram a vehicle you need to move Cruising Speed. Means no disembarking.

Also, perhaps you could consider the cargo inside to be different. More like a battlewagon proper, and less like an up-armored transport. I mean, if the battlewagon rams a transport to death, and there's 20 burnas inside, I'm pretty sure you're still going to do okay with killing the squad inside. You're just not doing it with assault anymore.

As above. Cruising Speed means Snap Shots only from passengers, so no Burnas shooting sadly.

Lootas then, whatever.

My point is that you don't have to ram+disembark+shoot+assault IN THAT ORDER for battlewagons to still be useful.

I get your point (and it's a good one).
New edition calls for new tactics. The tried and tested tactics of old no loger work as they once did. Time to change our thinking.

I'm still having good results from my Battlewagons, but my tactics have had to change. Burnas still work brilliantly. Although Ramming is a careful choice now as the vehicle can't do much else if you do it.

They're still great vehicles, but as with all things this edition you need to think more carefully about how you use them.

Wagon as transports are much faster. 13" move + 7" flat out. Perfect set up for a turn 2 charge.

Starting on turn 3 an empty wagon without a roller is pretty useless, but a functional roller is still a significant threat on a av14 platform.

With 2 or 3 wagons one wagon can deffroller open a transport for another to move 7" and charge.

That is true. But that said, my BWs have been even more reliable in 6th as well. I'm losing them a full round later than normal if my unttracked statistical data is to be relied upon.

I will also support the claim that Deffrollas still seem to be as effective as in 5th, regardless of the theory. They have pulled through for me in every game of 6th I have played.

I'll +1 this as well.

I don't play tourney 40k for the most part. 99% of my play is in a small group of friends when we can get everyone together (that's 7 people, two live out of state). But in our group, 5 of us play more than one codex, so the mix of armies is pretty wide. In our "micro meta", my Orks are very competitive.

In 6th, everyone is so uptight about Lootas that my wagons don't even get shot at until turn 2. The rolla rush is HUGE.

Rollas? Worth every point I pay for all three of them.

In regards to the 5+ to immobilize -I was referring to the general vehicle damage chart.

Overall, AP brings the damage chart BACK to what it was in 5th. Ap3 = 5 to kill. AP2 = 4 to kill. For battlewagons, that's a 4+ and a 3+ respectively. Exactly the same as 5th.

The difference is that lower AP is actually *worse* at killing vehicles as they were in 5th. In addition, stunned only happens on a 3, rather than a 2, so more chance for your vehicles to keep moving. Glances don't even roll on the damage table.

On the otherside of the coin, Deffrollas use the hull point system to devestate vehicles. Ramming a vehicle? All you need, most of the time, is at least 3 glances on D6 strength 10 and it is immediately dead. No rolling on the damage table. That's a considerable boost in capability in my book. The amount of times in 5th I've gotten 5 glances / pens, and fluffed the penetration rolls, is nauseating.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Wagon as transports are much faster. 13" move + 7" flat out. Perfect set up for a turn 2 charge.

Starting on turn 3 an empty wagon without a roller is pretty useless, but a functional roller is still a significant threat on a av14 platform.

With 2 or 3 wagons one wagon can deffroller open a transport for another to move 7" and charge.

I believe you are confused. Red Paint only gives +1 to vehicle movement during the movement phase. You can't get +1 to vehicle movement during the shooting phase (flat out).

So there's no way to get 7" flat out.

You'll probably want the roller to drive over difficult terrain anyway.
Then the roller is till awesome but you will juat need to go for shoota boyz instead.
If you are already spending the points on a battlewagon you may as well bring the roller to add to the usefulness.

Yeah I would still bring the deffrolla even with the changes. Worst case scenario it lets you reroll difficult terrain, and gives your wagon something to do once the boyz are out. Plus for something like a loota wagon, it would help the vehicle deal with threats that get a bit too close for it's liking, or AV 14 vehicles that the lootas can't touch.

sickening wrote:I would not say they are more durable against glancing shot because its way easier to glance out tanks. Sure a glance wont slow you do but they can still kill you. AP2 shots are now +2 and AP1 are +3, you now explode on a 4+ on AP2 shots! Sure flyers wont get an rear shot till turn 3 but some armies (necrons) hide all there troops that you need to kill in the flyers.

The damage table moved up one spot though, as "wrecked" disappeared. AP2 destroyed a battlewagon in 5th a 4+, too, so no change for AP2 and AP1. Ap3 and higher got worse though, plus a battlewagon can no longer be negated by single glances, which was a quite easy to do for mass-S8 shots from units like hive guard, long fangs or psyflemen. Getting four glances on a battlewagon takes so much dedicated firepower, that most opponents are not willing to make that investment.

Walkers are also much less common now. Sure landraiders are still hard to kill but lemans are now easy to kill with a PK.

A pk can't tank-shock across 12" of bubble-wrap. A battlewagon can.

Yes AV 13 is still hard to kill but hitting rear armor on a 3+ with a S9 PK is still good. I would expect to see walker all but disrepair with the new krak grenades rule.

You hit front armor against walkers, using weapon skill. AV13 walkers don't give a damn about krak grenades, so I expect to see them just as often as before, if not more often. Death Company Dreads have gotten much better with the new rage rule, Soul Grinders are auto-includes for most daemon armies. Monoliths are too dangerous to ignore them now, and you don't want to charge ghost arks or battlewagons because of overwatch. Of course, if you rarely face those, you can attempt to game your local meta. I'm just saying that a couple of AV13 walkers can outright make you lose the game if you can not stop them.

Aren't the tactics

drive fast until you hit something (shooting if you can)

drive past it slow - shoot it again to make sure you got it, and get out.