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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



Beaver Dam, WI

 Kanluwen wrote:
DAaddict wrote:

I don't think that the Dems will turn out the young vote anywhere near what they did in 2008. They just haven't done much to keep them energized. 10% unemployment is not going to help his cause much either. I mean 5.8% unemployment in 2008 and now averaging over 8%. Not exactly a glowing endorsement of his econimic strategy. ( And a little late in the game to blame it on his predecessor.) That may have worked in 2009 and 10 but sorry if you were the economic visionary, one would hope we could at least tread water.

Really? You think that this is his economic strategy's fault?

That's a bad statement. It really is.

The issue is the Republicans are offering a "cutback" plan whereas the Democrats are offering "free" healthcare for all and no change. So just like a juvenile dependent, I expect the American people to ignore the potential blowback from the "Ostrich" plan and vote for their allowance to remain unchanged.

I find it hilarious that you talk about "forcing Obamacare down our throats without even reading the thing" and not pointing out that the "cutback plan" is a godawful abomination of an idea.


Obviously we have a difference of opinion. When I hear 800 bill in cutbacks in Medicare, additional costs in the trillions that weren't accounted for, and it really isn't government healthcare - it is mandatory privatized healthcare... I dont see that as a good plan.

I am sorry, GW may have had a root cause in the economic downturn. That Obama used that as his excuse through 2010 I could buy. We have been under Obama budgets for 3 years and have seen little headway. Right now Obama's one positive - to me - is he got Bin Laden. Otherwise his military plan looks and smells like the same thing GW Bush had. We still have Gitmo we still have the Patriot Act so I don't see a change there. Sorry, he also acknowledged the obvious that we can now have openly gay people in the military. Now I am sure I am shorting him some accomplishments but I am just saying his economic recovery plan is lame. Not to the point of tar and feather him and get him out of office, but I am also not doing the CNBC fawn all over him either.

I acknowledge that he is odds-on favorite to win re-election. I am just not going to kow-tow and say the emporer has new clothes when he is sorely lacking.
The sad thing - again for me - is I am not enthused about Romney either so I doubt he has enough charisma to overcome incumbency, color(yes it is an advantage when you see polls giving Romney 0 = ZERO of the black vote) and demeanor (buy that I mean liberal bias).

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Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

The economic recovery plan has been climbing us gradually out of a gutter we'd been driving into for at least eight-ten years.

Two unfunded wars (one of them totally unnecessary), the totally irresponsible housing bubble and bust, compounded by the repeal of Glass-Stiegel making banks too big to fail, led to an absolutely catastrophic financial situation. Do you remember the Dow freefalling in 2008? We drove our economy into a depression.

Four years is not a long time to get out of the disaster we had. How long did it take the Great Depression to turn around? We didn't avoid another one of those by much. Not to mention that as soon as we hired a new driver to start getting our National Bus out of the ditch, the party in the co-pilot's seat started putting their hands over his eyes and snatching at the wheel, openly admitting that their highest priority was making sure he failed; not working across the aisle to get America back on track.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 jordanis wrote:
after doing my homework, i still agree with the Republicans, as the Democrats have leaned more toward Socialism and that goes against everything i beleive about being free...
You should really try visiting Canada, the UK, or other modern Western nations. Try watching their news, and talking to their people. They're free too, you know. They enjoy the same general level of freedom that we do (a little more in some areas, a little less in others).

The average right wing politician in any other western nation is more socialist than Obama. Obama and most of the Dems are Center-Right from the perspective of most of the world. Every functional government is a mix of socialist and capitalist ideas. You believe in a socialized military, socialized highways and fire departments and police. You just aren't recognizing your own assumptions and the things you take for granted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ouze wrote:
You know, I was thinking about this at lunch today. It's sort of interesting that they decided to pick "we built it" as their campaign motto. It's fascinating to me because it's sort of predicated on a lie; that anyone can stand alone in modern society and build something themselves; and how it was excerpted from a larger speech and stripped of all context. It's a good microcosm of sorts for how the GOP is today: long on soundbites, short on facts and context and; gak, at this point, honesty. It's a little reminiscent of 4 years ago, when the GOP rallied around a man named Joe (who wasn't named Joe) who was a plumber (but not actually a plumber) who wanted to buy his bosses business (he wasn't really) and didn't want his taxes raised (they weren't).

Yup. It's also a source of continual amusement and exasperation how just about every small or medium business owner they push up front, who says "we did this ourselves", has taken government subsidized loans and other programs to help them build their businesses. They're happy to take the help and the money, but then they pretend they never did, and criticize the idea of other people getting the same help if which they took advantage.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/09/03 07:36:46


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Beaver Dam, WI

As I stated, I realize the Republicans are partially to blame.
But as I said the Dems - when they had a supermajority- kind of forced a piss-poor Obamacare plan down our throats. That is - I feel - a primary reason why the Dems got their butts handed to them in 2010.

Interesting points about the irresponsible housing bubble. I wonder who started that one? Glass-Stiegel...hmmm , that was repealed in 1999. I wonder who was president then? Now I am not going to say that GWB was without fault - he let the repeal stand - but don't play the holier than thou that the Democrats are all good and all our problems are due to GW Bush.

The only one I will concead is the Iraq War and with all the BS about WMDs, it seemed to make sense at the time. Proven lies and an outright case of nation-building.

And the unfunded evil wars with the Bush tax cuts... Hmmm... we haven't repealed those either under the benificent all-knowing altruistic control of the Democrats...

Don't try to convince me. It ain't going to work. I just am saying I am prepared to swallow the pill of another four years of "Hope (for a plan) and Change ( please do)."

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Manchester, NH

Now it is not all their fault, a recalcitrant Republican congress holds some of the blame. But there again, the Dems forcing Obamacare down our throats without even reading the thing I find disturbing too ( and probably why the Dems got the boot in 2010).

Do you know what your insurance premiums were twenty years ago? Ten years ago? Do you know what they are today? The Dems ran in part on finally doing something to fix healthcare. Obama repeatedly beat McCain in debates while promising to do something about healthcare, and saying he wanted all American citizens to have access to a Public Option; a plan like everyone in Congress has. Government insurance is good enough for McCain and Obama. It's good enough for you and me.

Despite Obama wanting a public option, and the American people voting him into office while he was offering that, the Dems took it off the table almost immediately. Many of the Dems themselves aren't Liberal enough to back it. And they knew that, despite the votes of the electorate, no Republicans would vote for it. So they crafted a package specifically to appeal to the Republicans. They adopted a plan designed by a Conservative think tank, and which had previously been enacted on the State level by a Republican Governor, with bipartisan support. A plan which had been popular and worked reasonably well there. A plan which that Republican governor championed as a proud achievement; one which made people take responsibility for their health care and its costs, rather than dumping all the cost onto everyone else via emergency rooms and hospitals taking tax write-offs for uninsured care.

This was the basis of the Affordable Care Act. A plan originally designed by Republicans and implemented on the State level by Mitt Romney. The Dems went with this because they specifically wanted bipartisan support. It wasn't as Soclalized as what most of us were hoping for when we voted Obama and a Dem majority into the House and Senate in 2008, but it was something they thought they could work with the Republicans on to achieve some important reforms for the American people.

And then the Republicans absolutely refused to work with it. The plan which had been pre-compromised was not good enough for them. A YEAR was spent on trying to sell it to them and solicit their ideas for improvements, with no positive results. Instead they lied to their constituents, making up inflammatory crap about "death panels" and the like. Ignorant citizens were panicked into yelling at their congresspeople at town hall meetings that Summer. The Republicans openly stated, on the record, that their priority was making sure Obama did not succeed. Not working with the Dems (who had been duly elected by the American people to the Presidency and to majorities in the House and Senate) to enact legislation to the benefit of Americans who need it. Their priority was winning the political fight. No progress or changes or reform would be made with their cooperation.

"Forced down our throat" is one of their appalling lies. It saddens me every time I see someone ignorantly repeat it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/03 08:18:56


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How is using the legislative process as defined in the constitution in any way 'forcing it down our throats'

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/03 07:51:08


H.B.M.C. wrote:
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Three things matter in marksmanship -
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MagickalMemories wrote:How about making another fist?
One can be, "Da Fist uv Mork" and the second can be, "Da Uvver Fist uv Mork."
Make a third, and it can be, "Da Uvver Uvver Fist uv Mork"
Eric
 
   
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 jordanis wrote:
so maybe my number wasnt the best to use, but my argument is still valid, government employees that determine their own pay grade (or very easily work together across the checks and balances put in place to prevent corruption) is unacceptable, maybe the better option would be to have all pay raises for each representative or Senator to be voted on in their state, not by committee or however they do it now (and abuse it) because i beleive most if not all politicians are overpaid for doing usually not a whole lot to deserve it....being in a position of power should be an almost volunteer situation. and to be fair, a vast amount of government programs could be cancelled and made into private sector entities (not so much the military as many others) with equal if not better success than the current government run programs


No, it isn't the number you picked out that's the problem, but the idea of picking a number at all. If you want quality management you pay what the market is paying for quality management. That's the free market.

And government employees don't just get to pick their own rate of pay. I don't even know where you got that idea.

And lots of countries have very low rates of pay for public sectors employees, on the notion that people should just be happy serving the country. They are, fairly predictably, full of corruption as government officials seek to supplement their meagre incomes with bribes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
DAaddict wrote:
Ahh 2008 to 2012 is 4years. Now I am not taking the simplistic view that it is ALL Obama's fault. As a matter of fact the new jobs numbers are currently taking a little up tick. I am just saying if I were grading him, I would currently be giving him a D+ or a C-. Not an absolute failure but very underwhelming.

So I apologize for my view through rose colored glasses but the no-change stay-as-you-go Democratic plan doesn't inspire me.


Okay, so where did you get the idea that economic downturns are supposed to turn around in 4 years, and that presidents have some kind of magical 'make economy work now buttons'?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Hordini wrote:
I'm not saying I agree with everything he posted, or that there should be a government salary cap at $80,000, but you need to do your homework sebster, if you think $80,000 a year is "low level management wages."

I'm not saying $80,000 a year for one person is extremely rich, but it's not "low" anything, especially when they get government benefits on top of it.



Umm, I literally have done my homework. The professional magazine all us CPA types get sent publishes salary rates in jobs around the world. $80,000 is the kind of thing you get paid at the bottom end of management.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/03 08:27:27


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
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Yeah, a manager in or lab head for the engineering or science feilds can be looking at 120,000+. I can only guess that most management positions would easily surpass 80000

H.B.M.C. wrote:
"Balance, playtesting - a casual gamer craves not these things!" - Yoda, a casual gamer.
Three things matter in marksmanship -
location, location, location
MagickalMemories wrote:How about making another fist?
One can be, "Da Fist uv Mork" and the second can be, "Da Uvver Fist uv Mork."
Make a third, and it can be, "Da Uvver Uvver Fist uv Mork"
Eric
 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





DAaddict wrote:
Obviously we have a difference of opinion. When I hear 800 bill in cutbacks in Medicare, additional costs in the trillions that weren't accounted for, and it really isn't government healthcare - it is mandatory privatized healthcare... I dont see that as a good plan.


Actually, that's less a difference in opinion and you basing your opinion on things that aren't true. The $800 billion in 'cutbacks' to medicare aren't cutbacks, but plans to deliver the same services with less spending, by targetting fraud and waste that is presently in the system. It's things like negotiating with drug companies over the price paid for medicare drugs, or reducing overpayments to medicare plans that deliver no more than standard benefits at a greater cost.

These things are such a good idea that Paul Ryan even put them in his own budget.

You may have noticed that Paul Ryan doesn't acknowledge that his own budget included the exact same cost savings within Medicare... well that's because Paul Ryan is a lying gak.


I am sorry, GW may have had a root cause in the economic downturn. That Obama used that as his excuse through 2010 I could buy.


Bush didn't really cause it either. It's called the attribution fallacy - whenever something goes wrong we pick out someone and say they're in charge and it was there fault. China used to consider it only sensible to overthrow emperors when there was a drought.

The GFC had its roots in a series of financial innovations that started in the early 1990s, arguably in the 1980s, as various financial instruments were developed that kept debt and risk exposure out of the annual report, and quickened the turnaround from sale to transaction conclusion. The innovations in derivatives quickly outpaced the regulations that were in place, and with not just the US but the whole world strongly convinced of the importance of open markets there was little effort made to clean this up.

Pushing to expand profits every quarter, banks looked to leverage more and more (and achieve this leveraging through complex financial instruments that kept their exposures out of the annual report) and reduce their internal business cycles (so instead of selling a mortgage and then profiting with interest over the next 30 years they sold the mortgage, cut the payments up into various risk exposures to get the profit now). Every year there was more reforms, newer instruments to do each of these things a little better. By the end financial institutions weren't aware how much they were exposed.

The whole thing fell down hard, as we all now know. And when you have an economic shock like we saw in the GFC (where banks were worried about lending overnight for fear another bank might go from just fine to insolvent in that time), then that takes time to flow through the economy, and it takes time for the economy to begin to rebuild.

Picking out Bush and saying 'it was his fault it all happened' was just wrong. Picking out Obama now and saying 'it is all his fault it hasn't gotten better by now' is just as mistaken.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

DAaddict wrote:
Don't try to convince me. It ain't going to work.


Ok... bye.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
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 Mannahnin wrote:
Just finished watching Romney.

This is a bad person. Because he is a republican and disagrees with me.


Just say what you really mean.

GG

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/03 12:44:41


 
   
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork






 generalgrog wrote:
 Mannahnin wrote:
Just finished watching Romney.

This is a bad person. Because he is a republican and disagrees with me.


Just say what you really mean.

GG


You're the one that seems more interested in choosing to decide what other people mean as opposed to dealing with what was actually said.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
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Leerstetten, Germany

If privatizing is going to make everything better and more efficient, the why do we never see anybody seriously advocate getting rid of the military. Surely a mercenary force maintained and supplied by the private sector would be better than the monster we call our military.
   
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United States

 jordanis wrote:

so maybe my number wasnt the best to use, but my argument is still valid, government employees that determine their own pay grade (or very easily work together across the checks and balances put in place to prevent corruption) is unacceptable, maybe the better option would be to have all pay raises for each representative or Senator to be voted on in their state, not by committee or however they do it now (and abuse it) because i beleive most if not all politicians are overpaid for doing usually not a whole lot to deserve it....being in a position of power should be an almost volunteer situation. and to be fair, a vast amount of government programs could be cancelled and made into private sector entities (not so much the military as many others) with equal if not better success than the current government run programs


Are we really pretending that the salaries of Congressmen and Senators are a serious economic problem?

For feths sake, I make more than a Senator.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
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Leerstetten, Germany

I make less than I would in the private sector, my pay has been frozen since 2009, and we work chronically short staffed.

But I am probably part of the problem.
   
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Eternal Plague

 dogma wrote:
 jordanis wrote:

so maybe my number wasnt the best to use, but my argument is still valid, government employees that determine their own pay grade (or very easily work together across the checks and balances put in place to prevent corruption) is unacceptable, maybe the better option would be to have all pay raises for each representative or Senator to be voted on in their state, not by committee or however they do it now (and abuse it) because i beleive most if not all politicians are overpaid for doing usually not a whole lot to deserve it....being in a position of power should be an almost volunteer situation. and to be fair, a vast amount of government programs could be cancelled and made into private sector entities (not so much the military as many others) with equal if not better success than the current government run programs


Are we really pretending that the salaries of Congressmen and Senators are a serious economic problem?

For feths sake, I make more than a Senator.


Not all of us have such a luxury as being as well off as dogma to not see jordanis' argument in a clearer picture.

People making less than a Senator (significant less especially) may argue that because the disparity is another highlight of the haves and have nots, streamlining government expenses should also include "bloated" incomes from working for the federal government, spotlighted by clearly visible public servants (Senators). So a Senator becomes a symbol of government excess because they make $175k+ a year, plus healthcare, plus expenses, plus what they make privately in whatever way they can.

I can see what jordanis wants to do and the intent, but I agree with dogma that it is not the senators themselves. Rather, it is the system itself that needs streamlining as a whole. But to replace what we have, we need a system that incorporates those who loses governmental jobs as well due to said streamlining.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/03 15:08:39


   
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United States

 WarOne wrote:
So a Senator becomes a symbol of government excess because they make $175k+ a year, plus healthcare, plus expenses, plus what they make privately in whatever way they can.


But only their salary and benefits are relevant to the status of "Senator".

This isn't a matter of kicking around the bourgeoisie, its a matter of "I'm angry about government!" If it were a case of kicking around the bourgeoisie there are better targets.

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 d-usa wrote:
I make less than I would in the private sector, my pay has been frozen since 2009, and we work chronically short staffed.

But I am probably part of the problem.


It's all your fault

H.B.M.C. wrote:
"Balance, playtesting - a casual gamer craves not these things!" - Yoda, a casual gamer.
Three things matter in marksmanship -
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MagickalMemories wrote:How about making another fist?
One can be, "Da Fist uv Mork" and the second can be, "Da Uvver Fist uv Mork."
Make a third, and it can be, "Da Uvver Uvver Fist uv Mork"
Eric
 
   
Made in us
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Eternal Plague

 dogma wrote:
 WarOne wrote:
So a Senator becomes a symbol of government excess because they make $175k+ a year, plus healthcare, plus expenses, plus what they make privately in whatever way they can.


But only their salary and benefits are relevant to the status of "Senator".

This isn't a matter of kicking around the bourgeoisie, its a matter of "I'm angry about government!" If it were a case of kicking around the bourgeoisie there are better targets.


And populist sentiment finds a scapegoat; in the prior argument, the Senator can be someone people get angry about, just like a "fat-cat" private executive is when discussing the excesses of our economic system and its disparities.

Turning that anger into a positive contribution towards an answer is what should be happening. It's really just stuck in anger mode.

   
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Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Hordini wrote:
 sebster wrote:
Look, I don't mean to be blunt but what you've posted above is just really simplistic stuff. You said people need to do their homework, and that was great advice. Please just keep reading, and try not to get too committed to any ideology before you've been fully exposed to how the world works.



I'm not saying I agree with everything he posted, or that there should be a government salary cap at $80,000, but you need to do your homework sebster, if you think $80,000 a year is "low level management wages."

I'm not saying $80,000 a year for one person is extremely rich, but it's not "low" anything, especially when they get government benefits on top of it.


eh.. that's not a whole lot of $$$ for Washinton DC... that place is very expensive to live in (even 6/mo of the year).

Part of the angst is that (for Rep/Senate) pay raises automatically kicks in each year... if they want it stopped, it requires a vote. Are you going to vote on NOT getting a pay raise?

Here's some simple idea:
1) No pay raises for Congressional representative AND department management unless a the budget is balanced (or within a percentage of a balanced budget). Or some other metric.
2) Put all Congressional Critters on Social Security (and not on their special requirement plans). That way, if they' are issues, it'll behooved them to fix it.
3) Put all Congressional Critters on ObamaCare (ACA). (yes, they have their own "cadillac" insurance exchange).

So... they have their "own" plans for these things and yet, their policy they've passed are for the electorate.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
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Manchester, NH

 generalgrog wrote:
 Mannahnin wrote:
Just finished watching Romney.

This is a bad person. Because he is a republican and disagrees with me.


Just say what you really mean.

I'm okay with being called out on that. It was a bit over the top. I don't know for sure that Romney is a genuinely bad person. I was angry over the crap that came out of his mouth, particularly at the end of that speech.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johnmcquaid/2012/08/31/romneys-rising-oceans-joke/
http://hotlineoncall.nationaljournal.com/archives/2011/06/romney-climate.php
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/aug/31/mitt-romney/mitt-romney-said-barack-obama-began-his-presidency/
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/aug/30/mitt-romney/romney-says-majority-americans-now-pessimistic-abo/
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/aug/31/mitt-romney/mitt-romney-says-utility-prices-have-risen-under-b/

Romney, like McCain before him, is/was a moderate and comparatively reasonable Republican, who has a history of working with Dems to get some things done. He has sold out and abandoned that to pander to the worst elements of the Republican base. Laughing about rising ocean levels while a hurricane hits the city, almost on the exact anniversary of Katrina. Lying about an "apology tour" to reinforce the misconceptions and flatter the arrogance of the ignorant. Turning his back on his own legacy of bipartisan achievement for healthcare in Massachusetts.

I'm angry with him for abandoning the good and embracing the bad, for personal political benefit. Lusting after power and embracing deceit to achieve it. Which is undoubtedly too idealistic, as practically all politicians have these weaknesses to at least some extent.

As for your accusation that I think he's a bad person because of his political party or for disagreeing with me, I can't be angry at you for that personal attack. I do think the record in here shows me disagreeing with some folks without being disagreeable. That I think relative conservatives like d-usa, Jihadin, whembly and Monster Rain are still good people.

From my perspective you are wilfully ignorant on a lot of important issues, and support harmful people and policies. Your vision of the world is incompatible with seeing me as a frustrated advocate of truth, justice, and American values. So when I get angry about stuff, you dismiss it and me. I forgive you for it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/03 18:40:56


Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
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Manny one of the few people on here I be willing to throw my debit card on bar and run a tab for both of us. (Drinks on me Manny)...actually I won't on Matty it'll be a credit card. Hospital bill would be on him. Wrath of the wives would be on us both.

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Cheers, sir. I respect you too.

But if you pick up the tab the first time, the second time would be on my card. Assuming Matty hadn't gotten us killed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/03 18:28:16


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The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.

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The Main Man






Beast Coast

 sebster wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Hordini wrote:
I'm not saying I agree with everything he posted, or that there should be a government salary cap at $80,000, but you need to do your homework sebster, if you think $80,000 a year is "low level management wages."

I'm not saying $80,000 a year for one person is extremely rich, but it's not "low" anything, especially when they get government benefits on top of it.



Umm, I literally have done my homework. The professional magazine all us CPA types get sent publishes salary rates in jobs around the world. $80,000 is the kind of thing you get paid at the bottom end of management.



In what field? I'm not saying that certain fields don't have management positions that go way above $80,000, and maybe for CPAs $80,000 is low. But there are plenty of other fields where $80,000 is on the upper end.

And when we say government employees, are we talking about politicians, or regular (that is, unelected, civil service type) government employees. I thought we were talking about the latter, primarily.

   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut






USAjobs.gov will give you an idea what the US gov't paying individuals. You just have to get use to the GS level and time in grade.

Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
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Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
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Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

 Jihadin wrote:
USAjobs.gov will give you an idea what the US gov't paying individuals. You just have to get use to the GS level and time in grade.


And then there are all the jobs that are not part of the GS level scale. It takes a small miracle to find my actual pay scale anywhere.
   
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Your at Expert Subject Matter paygrade. I'm guessing 7-8 grade for you D-USA. How bad am I off?

Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.

Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha


 
   
Made in us
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The Main Man






Beast Coast

 Jihadin wrote:
USAjobs.gov will give you an idea what the US gov't paying individuals. You just have to get use to the GS level and time in grade.



Well yeah, the GS scale was primarily what I was looking at, and you can't break into the $80,000 range until at least GS-13.

Of course, that doesn't affect people not on the GS scale. But are we talking about just government employees or elected officials as well?

Just to note once again, I'm not saying that I think we should cap all government workers at $80,000, I'm just saying I don't consider $80,000 to be low. Obviously that can vary depending on geographic area, in California $80,000 might not be that great, but in Ohio and a lot of other Midwest or southern states, $80,000 is pretty much making bank.

   
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Folsom, CA, just outside Sacramento

when i suggested it it was for all elected officials, and my primary concern was that in my opinion, elected officials make more than they should, especially when they are running a deficit, one thing most companies do when they are running an unsustainable deficit is either cut back on employees or cut their wages. in many respects, a government is a company, its a company that guarantees the welfare of the nation, it provides a service for the people, and the people pay for that service in the form of taxes, at the same time, the people are responsible for making sure the elected officials that run the government behave like good managers and dont ruin a perfectly good country because they made too many mistakes. From a financial perspective, Romney would make an incredibly better president than Obama because he has experience managing a financial institution, where honestly, this is Obama's first experience with it. maybe Romney doesnt have the best answer, but his answer is a hell of a lot better than his opponents.

heres an idea: base government salaries off of whatever is left over after the government pays its other bills. that means they have to pass a budget in order to get paid and that budget has to have enough of a surplus to allow them to even make money in office. just an idea that i am throwing out there for debate

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/03 23:47:06


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Gathering the Informations.

 jordanis wrote:
when i suggested it it was for all elected officials, and my primary concern was that in my opinion, elected officials make more than they should, especially when they are running a deficit, one thing most companies do when they are running an unsustainable deficit is either cut back on employees or cut their wages.

With none of it affecting the "higher ups" in most corporations/companies. It affects the low/mid level employees the most.

The "elected officials making more than they should" will not see their pay reduced as long as they are able to regulate their pay scales. You will see cutbacks in everything but their pay, but never theirs.
in many respects, a government is a company, its a company that guarantees the welfare of the nation, it provides a service for the people, and the people pay for that service in the form of taxes, at the same time, the people are responsible for making sure the elected officials that run the government behave like good managers and don't ruin a perfectly good country because they made too many mistakes. From a financial perspective, Romney would make an incredibly better president than Obama because he has experience managing a financial institution, where honestly, this is Obama's first experience with it.

I don't think you actually understand the sheer madness of what you're suggesting here.
maybe Romney doesnt have the best answer, but his answer is a hell of a lot better than his opponents.

Yeah...when your argument boils down to "Well, it can't be any worse right guys?"--I think it is time to reexamine your argument.
   
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