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Its also not what the sates cited (technically). They cited the federal government's tyranny and their freedom to own slaves. It really is all about slavery. Calling it state's rights is an attempt to circumvent the real issue.

 Melissia wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
thats what the states cited when they seceded.

Yes, and most despots claim they're working for the good of the people, too.

But neither one is telling the truth.

It was the truth. It was about state's right. Howver the leading driver and state's right they were talking about what their ability to have slaves. So yes, at its bone it was about slavery and the whole agricultural culture around that.

We have to remember people were killing each other in Kansas ( and a lesser extent Missouri) over slavery.

State's rights had come up many times, but slavery was the issue that started the killing. In the end it took a holy war to free a people.

I saw let 'em keep their slavery flag on their toys. When people own stuff like that it makes that much easier to determine who I don't want to interact with.

 Chongara wrote:
I saw let 'em keep their slavery flag on their toys. When people own stuff like that it makes that much easier to determine who I don't want to interact with.

No one's asking why they are selling Dukes of Hazzard toys...Its been a few decades. And it was just a midless popcorn little show. Nothing offensive to see here, unless your name is Cooter and you believe their disparagement of Cooter was wrong of course. Wasn't there a giant bloodhound in the show too?

 Frazzled wrote:

 Chongara wrote:
I saw let 'em keep their slavery flag on their toys. When people own stuff like that it makes that much easier to determine who I don't want to interact with.

No one's asking why they are selling Dukes of Hazzard toys...Its been a few decades. And it was just a midless popcorn little show. Nothing offensive to see here, unless your name is Cooter and you believe their disparagement of Cooter was wrong of course. Wasn't there a giant bloodhound in the show too?

You forgot slow and lazy, yes his name was Flash.

Some Historical inclined posters may be able to pove me wrong. But wasnt the flag actually a flag of a small regiment near the end of the war?

The Confederate flag is a symbol of a seperateist movement, a short lived nation state and the historical culture of the southern states of the USA that attempted to seceed in 1861.

Then as now not everyone involved would have a particular race agenda, and it is blanket revisionism to suggest that the Union states were fighting for equal rights or a better moral code. This was the 19th century, not the 21st.

I would find it ill indeed if people from the southern states could not celebrate their history and culture by flying the Confederate flag, its not like they are at war with anyone about it. Two write it off as racism is revisionism, ignorance and/or PC propaganda.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Some Historical inclined posters may be able to pove me wrong. But wasnt the flag actually a flag of a small regiment near the end of the war?

The flag and variants of it were very common as regimental standards. I don't think any particular design was ever actually accepted by the Confederacy, and there were upwards of three dozen variants in use.

Well in the defense of others posting here I'll note, when I was younger there were lots of rebel flags. It was a symbol of the South. That seems to have fallen away and the flag has been taken over more and more by KKK types. As the old underpinnings of the flag has fallen away its beomce more and more associated with that.

 Frazzled wrote:
Well in the defense of others posting here I'll note, when I was younger there were lots of rebel flags. It was a symbol of the South. That seems to have fallen away and the flag has been taken over more and more by KKK types. As the old underpinnings of the flag has fallen away its beomce more and more associated with that.

Its a shame when that happens.

The St Georges flag looked like it was going the same way, to the extent that fethwit councils would ban it as a 'racist symbol'. That dogma has largely been stomped on though.

Wait, who tries to ban the Saint George cross? Or is the flag something different?

Mention that to frazz a few post back

 Frazzled wrote:
Well in the defense of others posting here I'll note, when I was younger there were lots of rebel flags. It was a symbol of the South. That seems to have fallen away and the flag has been taken over more and more by KKK types. As the old underpinnings of the flag has fallen away its beomce more and more associated with that.

Pretty much this.

There's a truck with a huge trailer that drives up and down Crystal Beach, TX on Bolivar Peninsula on the weekends that sells flags. Most are crude, some are simple pirate flags, some pro-pot flags, Texas Tech, Texas A&M, and UT flags, and various flags with the Confederate/Rebel flag on them. Judging by the flags I see people flying, the Confederate Flag (or some derivative there-of) seems to be the most popular.

Judging by the monster trucks, women dipping snuff, bud light cans, and other redneck stereotypes I've seen of the people with the "rebel flags", I'd say that most were ignorant hicks/rednecks/morons.

Nutty councils, mostly in the early years of the last decade, some went as far as to ban flying the Union Flag. This was at memorials or public places, nothing to stop you doing such on your own land.

There was still until recently a belief that if you flew the Union flag or especially the English flag you were a right wing extremist.

Fortunately this died when we got good at certain sports again. Especially around the time England won the Rugby world cup.

My wife has a rebel flag on my jeep. I find it highly amusing when people see me in it.

 Jihadin wrote:
My wife has a rebel flag on my jeep. I find it highly amusing when people see me in it.

If anyone bugs you, fake a British accent and tell them its the Union Jack. They'll never know. Fake false umbrage and challenge them to fitiscuffs to protect the honor of The Queen.

 Orlanth wrote:
Nutty councils, mostly in the early years of the last decade, some went as far as to ban flying the Union Flag. This was at memorials or public places, nothing to stop you doing such on your own land.

There was still until recently a belief that if you flew the Union flag or especially the English flag you were a right wing extremist.

Fortunately this died when we got good at certain sports again. Especially around the time England won the Rugby world cup.

I don't see the problem with flying your own country's flag. Flying the flag of a rebel movement that got defeated is a bit different...

I was visiting my folks in Indiana this spring and we went to a county fair. There were quite a few places selling confederate flags there.

I told him that my history could be a bit off here, but I don't remember Indiana leaving the union and it seems a bit north for "southern pride".

He told me it was just redneck racist asshatery up there to own one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 purplefood wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
Nutty councils, mostly in the early years of the last decade, some went as far as to ban flying the Union Flag. This was at memorials or public places, nothing to stop you doing such on your own land.

There was still until recently a belief that if you flew the Union flag or especially the English flag you were a right wing extremist.

Fortunately this died when we got good at certain sports again. Especially around the time England won the Rugby world cup.

I don't see the problem with flying your own country's flag. Flying the flag of a rebel movement that got defeated is a bit different...

I got in trouble before with folks over my German flag, but the sad thing is that the same folks that get angry if you fly the flag of your other home would be the same ones flying the US flag anywhere else.

I do follow the flag code, made sure no flag is taller than the other one, made sure they are flying on the right side. I fly the US one for all holidays, and the German one for German holidays (and always fly the US flag whenever the German one is up).

I also see that a lot of people who have sense a humor about it. I have a two black friends who are fighting the whole racist thing with humor.

The 1st one is an avid Civil War Reinactor who put on his Confederate Coronel’s uniform and walked into the Confederate camp’s Mess Hall. Almost everyone stood at attention and then when they realized it was him and had a good laugh about it. From what I understand he does this every once in a while get everyone to think about it and have a good laugh.

The 2nd showed me his KKK membership card. He had went online and joined as he put it “To make them look like the fools they are.”

I went to a college party at a hick's apartment (way he and his buddies acted, he deserves the title 'hick') and they were flying the Confederate flag in the apartment. We walked through the door and all conversation immediately stopped. Why? Because one of my friends happened to be black. Someone even tossed the "N" word as we left immediately. We hadn't seen the flag until we got inside.

The flag is often seen a representation of racism and hatred, even if not everyone who flies it feels that way. That said, the flag on the General Lee is also part of what the car is, and I feel like it's no longer the actual General Lee without it. I say leave it on the car. I only watched the new movie (didn't hate it), never saw the old shows, but I didn't see any racism at all in the movie-never saw the boys use it as a racist tool, so no harm. If it's used to put down people, it needs to be removed. As do the people supporting racism. I fully support the castration of all racists everywhere.

 Orlanth wrote:

I would find it ill indeed if people from the southern states could not celebrate their history and culture by flying the Confederate flag, its not like they are at war with anyone about it. Two write it off as racism is revisionism, ignorance and/or PC propaganda.

They're free to celebrate it, but that doesn't mean they can't be mocked for it, or looked at dubiously in public. The same is true of any symbol, it just so happens that the Confederate Flag has a lot of baggage thanks to not only the civil war, the civil rights movement, and modern racism; so it happens to be subject to the above more frequently than most similar articles.

There is also the point that the central issue of the civil war was slavery, and the defense of that "right" is the primary reason that the confederate flag exists. There are other cultural elements as well, but that's the central one.

Also while I know you really love that whole "PC propaganda" thing, its really just a nonsense beat stick. You could have stopped at revisionism and ignorance while making the same point, and come off as much more sensible.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
The flag is often seen a representation of racism and hatred, even if not everyone who flies it feels that way. That said, the flag on the General Lee is also part of what the car is, and I feel like it's no longer the actual General Lee without it. I say leave it on the car. I only watched the new movie (didn't hate it), never saw the old shows, but I didn't see any racism at all in the movie-never saw the boys use it as a racist tool, so no harm. If it's used to put down people, it needs to be removed. As do the people supporting racism. I fully support the castration of all racists everywhere.

Not just the flag, but he whole Racist/PC thing has gotten out of hand. I admit my Fathers side of the family could turn into a Jeff Foxworthy special. I spent the last family reunion saying “No I have had enough Fritos and Chili!”
I do have a little Indian blood in my [1/64th Blackfoot], but I am just a poor white guy, trying to survive in a county were it is almost a sin to be one. I don’t speak Spanish, only enough to get into a bar fight. I have even been told “Don’t bother filling out the job application, you are the wrong color. I have told this the some of my black co-workers once and they said is served me right. WTF?

 Anpu42 wrote:

The 2nd showed me his KKK membership card. He had went online and joined as he put it “To make them look like the fools they are.”

That just makes me think of a comedy clip that I would never be allowed to post on Dakka.

 d-usa wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

The 2nd showed me his KKK membership card. He had went online and joined as he put it “To make them look like the fools they are.”

That just makes me think of a comedy clip that I would never be allowed to post on Dakka.

Just makes me think of this...

We had a big stink about it in Oklahoma in 1998 I think.

At our State Capitol there is a plaza with a lot of flag poles on it. Two giant ones that used to fly the Oklahoma flag and the US flag, and then maybe 11 smaller ones that had every flag that was ever flown over Oklahoma.

One of those was of course the Stars & Bars. There was lots of fighting back and forth about that flag being there with one side arguing that since it is a historical exhibit it should stay with all the other flags (I actually agreed with that) and the other side saying that it is a symbol of slavery and should be taken down. The flag pole was empty for a couple of years during all this fighting until the Governor at the time had enough and ordered every single flag taken down and just put the current Oklahoma flag on every single pole to put a stop to the fighting.

A few years ago we opened a historical center right next to the capitol and they added a garden where they are again flying all the flags that have flown over the area that is Oklahoma. We got the Spanish, the French, every flag that has ever laid claim to the land that is now Oklahoma. They did add a confederate flag to the mix but I think they made a pretty good compromise.

Instead of the battle flag (stars & bars) they decided to fly the Confederate National Flag instead:



I think that was a good decision and addressed the fears of flying a symbol that is often used by racists and still paying tribute to the fact that units based in the area sided with the Confederacy.

 d-usa wrote:
We had a big stink about it in Oklahoma in 1998 I think.

At our State Capitol there is a plaza with a lot of flag poles on it. Two giant ones that used to fly the Oklahoma flag and the US flag, and then maybe 11 smaller ones that had every flag that was ever flown over Oklahoma.

One of those was of course the Stars & Bars. There was lots of fighting back and forth about that flag being there with one side arguing that since it is a historical exhibit it should stay with all the other flags (I actually agreed with that) and the other side saying that it is a symbol of slavery and should be taken down. The flag pole was empty for a couple of years during all this fighting until the Governor at the time had enough and ordered every single flag taken down and just put the current Oklahoma flag on every single pole to put a stop to the fighting.

A few years ago we opened a historical center right next to the capitol and they added a garden where they are again flying all the flags that have flown over the area that is Oklahoma. We got the Spanish, the French, every flag that has ever laid claim to the land that is now Oklahoma. They did add a confederate flag to the mix but I think they made a pretty good compromise.

Instead of the battle flag (stars & bars) they decided to fly the Confederate National Flag instead:



I think that was a good decision and addressed the fears of flying a symbol that is often used by racists and still paying tribute to the fact that units based in the area sided with the Confederacy.

just FYI the Stars and Bars IS the Confederate National Flag.
Georgia made a similar decision.

Per wiki there were multiple national flags. The Stars and Bars was a battle flag - with jived with everything I was taught. And only of the Army of Virignia actually.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

I bet most people don't even realize that flag represents the Confederacy.

Edit: The one in D-USA's post.

 Frazzled wrote:
Per wiki there were multiple national flags. The Stars and Bars was a battle flag - with jived with everything I was taught. And only of the Army of Virignia actually.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

Frazz read the first line of "national flags" then scroll down to the pictures.

 AustonT wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
snip

just FYI the Stars and Bars IS the Confederate National Flag.
Georgia made a similar decision.

Got my terms mixed up, sorry.

I knew I should have just stuck with Battle Flag vs. National Flag.