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So first off, this is going under the assumption that Tau really did improve a ton. I've played a few games with them and I'm completely sold...we're way better now. Your thoughts?

My question is: Why? Or how? Or whatever...

The only massive change to our army was the change to rapid fire. Granted, this is huge. Our main troops can move and fire 30" and can unload tons of Strength 5 firepower at 15". This gives Tau a mobility advantage...but it's just one unit.

All of our vehicles have jink now, granting them a 5+ cover save. But we already had disruption pods...for essentially free, our vehicles received a 4+ cover save from lascannons, missiles, etc. Nice, but not a big difference.

Our crisis suits move 2d6 in the assault phase instead of 6". On average, we get an extra 1" movement. We have the potential for more. We could be screwed and only move 2" or 3". A little bit more significant, but still not a huge difference from 5th edition.

So what really changed to make Tau so much better? On a semi-related note, could other armies become completely revived with just a few minor changes (I'm looking at you, Eldar)? Discuss!

Shooty got way, way better relative to choppy. It should come as little surprise that an all-shooty-no-choppy army like tau benefited.

Furthermore, their small arm can take down fliers. 'Nuff said.

True, but at the same time, assault armies also got faster. Rhinos can now move 18" per turn. Most foot slogging armies can charge reliably charge 8-9" (fleet).

And the small arms fire is actually pretty bad at dealing with flyers. They can't scratch Vendettas or Storm Ravens. A full squad in rapid fire range gets 0.666 glances against any Necron flyer or the Storm Talon. They can only bring down Dakka Jets and Razorwing Jetfighters with some ease.

Reduction of cover to 5+ standard improves high quality shooting.

Introduction of hull points strengthens medium strength shooting's ability to destroy vehicles. PR/MP suits no longer just suppress, they realistically kill.

Casualty removal from front rank and overwatch will slow assaults by a few inches, which can combine with RCL to cost the occasional charge. Assault armies aren't faster because they lose 2"+ base size while disembarking assault vehicles, and a full turn of exposure from non-assault vehicles.

The option to take Fearless troops can't hurt either.

Siphen wrote:True, but at the same time, assault armies also got faster. Rhinos can now move 18" per turn. Most foot slogging armies can charge reliably charge 8-9" (fleet).

Yeah, clearly you missed what happened to assaulty armies. Makes sense, of course, because you're a tau player. Let me quote from another active thread. The context here was about slugga green tide, but it's applicable to all assault-based armies:

Ailaros wrote:
It's a comprehensive package.

Firstly, hidden upgrades aren't hidden anymore. If the mob shows up without its nob, just how much chopping are they doing?

Secondly, yes, cover is worse.

Thirdly, you now have random charge ranges.

Fourthly, you now have overwatch.

And then pair it off against shooting, which got better rapid fire, and vehicles that can move and still shoot everything.

And then the coup de grace is new wound allocation. You have to remove guys from the front of the squad, which means that if you're practicing proper displacement (so you aren't eaten alive by blast and template wepaons), it's now going to take you at least an extra turn to get into close combat.

Getting into close combat AT ALL is a miracle with a horde army against someone who knows what to do in the shooting phase (made easier thanks to pre-measuring). If you manage to make it in, you're going to be doing it with way fewer models, which makes you less likely to actually win combat. Then you have to put up with challenges picking out Ld models (or precise strikes), and the new pile in makes it more difficult to get as many models engaged in the close combat. Good luck making it into 2" of someone in base contact with an enemy at I2 or 3 when everybody that's in base contact has been killed, once again, due to new wound allocation.

The only way close combat works now is if you have some way to basically guarantee that they can get there basically unmolested, and you've got to have a greater killing power concentration than your opponent. This basically limits it to DoA BA, termies in a land raider or a few ultrafast units like necron chariots.

Other than that, you're looking at injured CC units mopping up all but destroyed enemy units in a countercharge role.

As for your specific concern, low-AV vehicles like transports are now more fragile, and they can no longer disembark after they move more than 6". The days of assaulty armies in transports are over as well.

Plus, you're TAU, it's not like you had problems blowing up rhinos...

Siphen wrote:And the small arms fire is actually pretty bad at dealing with flyers. They can't scratch Vendettas or Storm Ravens. A full squad in rapid fire range gets 0.666 glances against any Necron flyer or the Storm Talon. They can only bring down Dakka Jets and Razorwing Jetfighters with some ease.

Three units of firewarriors takes out nearly a flier a turn just with small arms. This is something every other army can only dream about. You're the only army at the moment that doesn't need dedicated AA power to handle fliers. That's huge.

Yeah, you're not going to take down stormravens or vendettas as quickly, but S10 Ap1 still really screws stuff up, especially against units that can't get a cover save without forgoing shooting. A battery of 3 broadsides will average a hit per turn on a flier. One hit is really all you need.

 Ailaros wrote:

Siphen wrote:And the small arms fire is actually pretty bad at dealing with flyers. They can't scratch Vendettas or Storm Ravens. A full squad in rapid fire range gets 0.666 glances against any Necron flyer or the Storm Talon. They can only bring down Dakka Jets and Razorwing Jetfighters with some ease.

Three units of firewarriors takes out nearly a flier a turn just with small arms. This is something every other army can only dream about. You're the only army at the moment that doesn't need dedicated AA power to handle fliers. That's huge.

Yeah, you're not going to take down stormravens or vendettas as quickly, but S10 Ap1 still really screws stuff up, especially against units that can't get a cover save without forgoing shooting. A battery of 3 broadsides will average a hit per turn on a flier. One hit is really all you need.

I do not disagree with the proposition that shooty armies has gotten better, and that choppy armies, especially hordes like your IG and my Orks, have found the 6th edition hill to be a good bit steeper than before.

But saying that 3 Fire Warrior units (360 points) can nearly bring down an AV 10 Flyer (130) points isn't really too impressive. It also assumes that 3 full Fire Warriors are bought for the army. I rarely find that to be the case.
The same goes for the Broadsides example. Sure, a single hit is all that is needed, but the fact that three units of Broadsides (720 points) can kill a single AV 12 Flyer (155 Points) isn't impressive either. Not to mention that three units of Broadsides could probably be used more effectively.

Its a single unit of three Broadsides.... thats 240pts...not 720pts. And 360pts of fire warriors works as an average to take down an AV10 flyer. If it were 360pts of bolter armed marines, about 20 of them roughly, would have a harder time taking down the same flyer. Simply put Tau are becoming a rather static 'hammer and anvil' army, the stationary hammerheads and firewarriors acting as a 'anvil' for forward ranging 'hammer' units like stealth and crisis suits to draw in the opposition.

EDIT: Basically I think the point that was originally being made is that Tau don't actually have to think too hard about how to deal with any enemy compared to choppy armies which require a hell of a lot of luck now to achieve the same results...

 JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:
Its a single unit of three Broadsides.... thats 240pts...not 720pts.

I stand corrected. Thank you.

Basically I think the point that was originally being made is that Tau don't actually have to think too hard about how to deal with any enemy compared to choppy armies which require a hell of a lot of luck now to achieve the same results...

And that is a premise that I, as I mentioned, do not disagree with. I merely didn't like the examples.


...

As another Tau I guarantee you, this is not nearly as effective as you make it out to be.

Yes, Tau firewarriors have more kill-power then same-cost marines, but they are not nearly as sturdy, worthless in the assault, and don't have them krak grenades built-in that take down most tanks up close.

The fact they CAN shot down a filer with basic infantry, does not mean said basic infantry was worth to spend that many point on to begin with, they WILL lose in a direct fight (even a firefight usually) with most other basic infantry when you calculate same-cost forces of vanilla troopers coming at each other, and they have no special weapon options at all except a few grenades, who wont help them much. and that is where they are supposed to be specialized.


Yes, tau gain alot with new rapid fire rules, as they are pretty much the only with higher-then-24 rapid fire guns (2 of them actually, krootox got 48 rapid fire, but he is unused because he is not good.), but it also means the crisis suit unique ability to fire long-range shots with rapid fire is now standard.
Yes, new skimmer rules make it cheaper because i dont need to get D-pod for everything, but on the other hand eldar, DE and crons got it too.
Yes, the S5 gun might glance out, or even pen very light armor, but necron firearms can do it to even heavier armor.
Yes, overwatch is a great boon to an army that never assaults anyway, but then again assault armies got the hammer of wrath we will never use.

Tau got more viable, but are still very, very weak compared to the other things out there. lack of options (crisis excluded) and pathetic stat-line on the majority of units leaves the tau relatively unimpressive even at their own field of specialization, and abysmally bad at their neglected sides.

Reasons the Tau have improved from my thoughts.

1. Shooting got better. Rapid Fire and Cover Saves Notibly changed in our favor, while the addition of SnapShots and Overwatch gives us more chances to send shots downrange. The changes in the shooting rules also increased the mobility of our Firewarriors, allowing us to do better at avoiding assaults (more on assaults later).

2. Vehicles became more vulnerable, especially to our shooting. No longer can you glance a vehicle 4 times with firewarriors and only stun the crew. Also, a penetrating hit from a Railgun now kills a vehicle outright 1/2 the time but also inflicts permanent damage on a 2+.

3. Assault became slightly harder to get into for a few reasons. First the rules prevent a unit from assaulting it's first turn on the board. Second no unit may run and assault now. Third, removing casualties from the front of the unit increases the distance between units. Fourth random charge distance and Overwatch makes it harder to successfully charge unless the attacker endures an extra round of fire getting close to us.

4. A lot of little changes went in the Tau's favor like Nightfighting, Nightvision, Smimmers, Prefferred Enemy, First Blood and Deep Strike Mishaps. These aren't huge things, but the fact that all these little changes went in a way that helped a Tau army have a cumulative effect.

5. The FAQ. A lot of legacy text that hurt the Tau was cleared out, stuff that really should have been gone during 5th (ie the Crisis Suit entry). In addition we were brought in line with the new ruleset in a way that makes it simpler and cheaper for us to build effective units.

In general, Tau got better since this edition favours shooting while cc can be gamble (assault range, no charge from inside a transport).
Moreover, Tau can use allies and in this way compensate their weakness (cc).

One downside is that Tau have no flyers.

When reading the rules book I noticed that all jetpack infantry have been given the bulky rule. It means that even the Crisis suck in melee, doesn't it?

Bulky just means that they take up two spaces in a transport.

I think it's a matter of math. I showed this in another thread.

Note, this is a theoretical approach, and unlikely to bear much resemblance to anything you see on a tabletop. Keep this in mind before rambling on about "use tactics".

Anyhow, the comparative math from 5th to 6th, compares a unit of 30 ork boyz (w/nob) crossing a table where they get cover every turn, but nothing blocks line of sight to them, nor slows their move, with two units of firewarriors - an equal point total.

In 5th, the orks would make it into contact with both firewarrior squads with 10 boyz left, and would probably win that combat.

In 6th, the orks, if they make it at all, are likely to get only two orks into base-to-base, and it's unlikely that their nob survives. Two orks might beat one of the firewarrior units, but then the second unit finishes them.

I can break it down, but the combination of cover being worse, being able to back-up and still fire as they approach, having a slightly larger rapid-fire range (that is more accurate due to pre-measuring), taking casualties from the front, and the final overwatch fire all work together to take this theoretical example from one where the orks probably win but are no longer combat effective, to one where the tau win, with at most a 50% reduction in force, and most likely not much damage at all.

Yeah, shooting is better, and assault is worse.

I think the new flat out rules help tau as well.

You can now flat out a Devilfish infront of your Fire Warriors(or crisis suits or what have you) AFTER that squad has shot. So can everyone else, but here's the difference.

A devilfish is Front armor 12, a Pulse Rifle is S5. A Rhino is Front armor 11, a Bolter is S4.

So if they want that Devilfish gone, they have to dedicate a squad's( or if you are lucky with the jink save, quite a few squads) Heavy weapon(s) to take it out if they want those Crisis Suits/ Fire Warriors/ect behind them. Every gun your 80 point Mobile Fortification eats is one less than your bread and butter squads has to eat. But if we want that rhino gone, the Fire Warriors can deal with that.


And I don't know about y'all, but I've been running 4 squads of 10 Fire Warriors with good results since 6th started.

Devilfish are still overpriced compared to most other transports in the game. 80 points for transport and one 18" S5 gun? I wouldn't use them in any discussion of how Tau are improved.

I had only two batles with my Tau so far, but my opinion of the army is very good so far. My 1750 points army (minimal commander, 3x3 tl-mp Crisis teams, 2x12 FWs, 1x2 Sensor Towers, 3x2 Tetras, 3x2 Broadsides) did some pretty disgusting shooting phases (including a one-phase-victory against a Purifier army) and even some equally destructive assault phases (Fire Warriors like assaults when a Sensor Tower is around ) too.

 Redbeard wrote:
Devilfish are still overpriced compared to most other transports in the game. 80 points for transport and one 18" S5 gun? I wouldn't use them in any discussion of how Tau are improved.

Yeah, but pathfinders still rock, so you'll have some Devilfishes anyways.


And that just it. You aren't shooting it's gun. Ever. You're going flat out every turn to block LoS to your bread and Butter.

Why do pathfinders rock? Have you seen tetras?

They never work to well for me.

Remeber what I said about Rhinos? Well it didn't take long for everyone locally to find that same statement rang true with Tetras and Bolters.

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:

Remeber what I said about Rhinos? Well it didn't take long for everyone locally to find that same statement rang true with Tetras and Bolters.

Uhm... Bolters can't fire at 36"...

There is a finite amount of space on the board. The range of the Markerlight may be 36, but that doesn't mean you will always be 36 inches away from all enemies at all time. Even moreso now that bolters have a 30 threat range on footslogging Marines.

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:
Devilfish are still overpriced compared to most other transports in the game. 80 points for transport and one 18" S5 gun? I wouldn't use them in any discussion of how Tau are improved.

Yeah, but pathfinders still rock, so you'll have some Devilfishes anyways.


And that just it. You aren't shooting it's gun. Ever. You're going flat out every turn to block LoS to your bread and Butter.

That, is genius...

Too bad my eldar transports are to expensive to try that with... haha


Von Chogg

There's also that thing about no assault from reserve what-so-ever that really stops some armies from just skipping your shooting phase(s), appear behind your gunline, and eat your entire army in one fell swoop.

I don't even know why the loss of outflank assault bothers me so much, my army don't even have decent outflankers...

Baronyu wrote:
There's also that thing about no assault from reserve what-so-ever that really stops some armies from just skipping your shooting phase(s), appear behind your gunline, and eat your entire army in one fell swoop.

I don't even know why the loss of outflank assault bothers me so much, my army don't even have decent outflankers...

Indeed, in the 5th ed, outflankers were often able to disrupt enemy plan.
This has been weakened a bit since now outflankers cannot charge after arrival. That's good for a shooty army if some cc units arrive in the back field - hello Genestealers.

Ok well its clear that 6th is for the shooters and not the choppers... the question is how much of a gap is there now?
In my experience assault became some what of an unnecessary risk for armies that can do just as well with shooting, so shooting is likely to become the order of the day for all armies who can. Those who don't have access to gun lines, CD and Nids primarily, are finding this edition to be an up hill battle. Tau are likely to become a dominant army again with this edition imo.

EDIT: Thats what I was gona say... without reserve assaults armies like Nids and Chaos Demons basically have no need for Outflanking or Deep Striking as that was its primary purpose for them... to tie down big shooter units to allow the rest of the army to close the distance...

 JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:
Tau are likely to become a dominant army again with this edition imo.

Unless the Tau get a massive boost in power from a new codex they will never be a "dominant army". The Tau are hands down the worst army in the game and have been for quite a while now. When you think about it there is nothing their army can do that can't be done cheaper by one of the other dexs. Tau may have gotten a little better but that doesn't make them a good army by any stretch.

Well, running S5 guns as main troop rifle as its perks, and the ability to spam S10 AP1 shots has it's perks, but yes-as a dedicated tau player I must admit we are in serious trouble.

At times I think the Tau are designed for cities of death games rather then normal games, with the roadblock tanks, JSJ units across multiple slot types and the ability to outright lock down a street to enemy tank movement with a well-placed broadside.

 Nox wrote:

 JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:
Tau are likely to become a dominant army again with this edition imo.

Unless the Tau get a massive boost in power from a new codex they will never be a "dominant army". The Tau are hands down the worst army in the game and have been for quite a while now. When you think about it there is nothing their army can do that can't be done cheaper by one of the other dexs. Tau may have gotten a little better but that doesn't make them a good army by any stretch.

While I agree that Tau are not one of the top tier armies, they are far from the worst army in the game. Right now I'd say they are a middle of the road codex, being better than Dark Angels, Black Templars, Eldar, Sisters of Battle, and maybe better than Tyranids. They were one of maybe 3 armies that was greatly buffed by the changes form 5th to 6th (the others being Necrons and arguably Orks) whereas every other army either had net neutral changes or worse.

RegalPhantom wrote:

While I agree that Tau are not one of the top tier armies, they are far from the worst army in the game. Right now I'd say they are a middle of the road codex, being better than Dark Angels, Black Templars, Eldar, Sisters of Battle, and maybe better than Tyranids. They were one of maybe 3 armies that was greatly buffed by the changes form 5th to 6th (the others being Necrons and arguably Orks) whereas every other army either had net neutral changes or worse.

We will have to agree to disagree on that.

I play Space Marines, Orks and Tau. Trust me, Tau are by far the worst of the 3 armies I play. With Orks and SM I win 50+% of my games, with the Tau I win about 10%.

(I would also argue pretty much all the Ork builds (Green Tide, KOS, Kan Wall, etc.) but Nob Bikers got worse. But that is a debate for a different thread.)