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If a unit of wraiths assault a sm tac squad who are holed up in a ruin do the wraiths suffer the I1 penalty? They have wraith flight that allows them to ignore terrain for movement and being wounded by tests. Does this also extend to not dropping to i1? In the 6th ed rule book on page 22 it says models who move through cover to assault attack at i1 regardless of other initiative modifiers.

1) If they do not use their JI move they are moving through cover, and drop to I1
2) If they use their up to 12" JI move they are not moving through cover, but over it. they land IN cover at the end, but havent moved through it, so no drop to I1

This might be yet again one of those "Summary disagrees with rules" things, but summary on page 428 equates starting or ending move in difficult terrain being for jump troops being equivalent to moving through difficult terrain.

It really depends on did GW mean 'through' in the Assault rules literally ie. ending starting or ending your move is not moving 'through' or not.

Note: You cannot read rest of the assault rules literally, they nwill break.

So answer depends on do you think Summary section is RAW or no.
If yes, then starting or ending move in dt = I1
If no, then exactly as Nosferatu said.

Pg 44 Wraithflight: "Canoptek Wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain"

Codex book trumps rule book and the wording is pretty plain, and further more they dont roll for landing in dangerous terrain like other jump troops do.

Fluff wise your not jumping into the building your phasing through the floor and the rules reflect this, not slowed is not slowed so no drop in Initiative.

hobojebus wrote:
not slowed is not slowed so no drop in Initiative.

Dropping your initiative doesn't slow your model.
If I roll max distance for my difficult terrain charge, I wasn't slowed by terrain so according to you I don't suffer the initiative drop?

Luide wrote:
This might be yet again one of those "Summary disagrees with rules" things, but summary on page 428 equates starting or ending move in difficult terrain being for jump troops being equivalent to moving through difficult terrain.

It really depends on did GW mean 'through' in the Assault rules literally ie. ending starting or ending your move is not moving 'through' or not.

Note: You cannot read rest of the assault rules literally, they nwill break.

So answer depends on do you think Summary section is RAW or no.
If yes, then starting or ending move in dt = I1
If no, then exactly as Nosferatu said.

The summary just says they take dangerous terrain tests which does not cause the initiative 1 effect anymore, not on it's own. Now that dangerous is always difficult though, if you charge "through" either terrain then you're dropped to I1. But JI using their jump packs do not charge "through" terrain, they jump over it. Landing in the terrain or taking off from terrain simply causes a dangerous terrain test.

You may be thinking that because they also roll 3d6 that they're equated to moving through terrain, but that's necessarily true either. Testing for either is no longer the qualifier for reducing initiative, you have to actually have moved "through" the terrain, which due to skyborne the JI don't.

Now, why don't jetbikes have the same limitation then? Don't know. *Shrug* I could be wrong entirely on my post above. I just remember having this same debate in another thread and was lead to see the differences stated.

"Not slowed by difficult terrain" = Normal movement, initiative hit.
"Ignores difficult terrain" = Normal movement, no initiative hit

hobojebus wrote:
Pg 44 Wraithflight: "Canoptek Wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain"

Codex book trumps rule book and the wording is pretty plain, and further more they dont roll for landing in dangerous terrain like other jump troops do.

Fluff wise your not jumping into the building your phasing through the floor and the rules reflect this, not slowed is not slowed so no drop in Initiative.

They still moved "through" terrain if they don't "jump". They just get to roll 2d6 per normal instead of 3d6 pick lowest.

Wow.
This is pretty interesting.

So by RAW
Pg 44 Wraithflight: "Canoptek Wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain"

They are simply "never slowed by difficult terrain", which I think we can all agree means that they move at their full rate. However, I'm not seeing where it's written that they ignore difficult terrain or that they do not move through it.

Not being slowed by difficult terrain doesn't mean that they aren't moving through it. In fact, I think it actually confirms that they are, in fact, moving through it, but aren't slowed by it.

The question here is... does "never slowed" apply to the speed of movement, the speed of initiative, or both?

Since logically "speed" can be applied to both and be true. I'd say that by RAW they still move through the terrain, their movement speed isn't slowed, nor is the speed of their attacks (read:initiative).

If their initiative is reduced by moving through terrain, then you can make the argument that they were "slowed"

paidinfull wrote:
If their initiative is reduced by moving through terrain, then you can make the argument that they were "slowed"

Except then you have the issue of a non-Wraith model rolling 3 6s for their charge move. They were not slowed by difficult terrain, so why is their initiative dropped?
Warp Speed improves my Initiative - why do I not move extra inches as well?

The two things are completely separate in 40k. You don't have permission to keep your init, so it drops.

As a Necron player I would assume that they still drop to I1 because they did in fact move through it but are "not slowed" as per Pg. 44 Of Codex: Necrons. Imagine you're driving a car, if you turn suddenly, no you didn't slow down but you still turned. That's how I would read it, although if you're playing Wraiths you're bringing Whip Coils and this is a non-issue.

rigeld2 wrote:

paidinfull wrote:
If their initiative is reduced by moving through terrain, then you can make the argument that they were "slowed"

Except then you have the issue of a non-Wraith model rolling 3 6s for their charge move. They were not slowed by difficult terrain, so why is their initiative dropped?
Warp Speed improves my Initiative - why do I not move extra inches as well?

The two things are completely separate in 40k. You don't have permission to keep your init, so it drops.

It actually doesn't matter if the non-Wraith unit "were not slowed by difficult terrain", the rules state "that if at least one model in the charging unit moved *through* difficult terrain as part of its charge move, all of the unit's models must attack at Initiative step 1"

So rolling max distance isn't the issue, it's whether or not you moved *through* it.

p2 BRB
Initiative (I)
This represents the swiftness of a creature's reactions. Models with a low Initiative characteristic (Orks w/ I2) are slow-witted, while models with a high Initiative characteristic (Genestealers w/ I6) react far more quickly. In close combat, Initiative dictates the order in which creatures strike.

As swiftness refers to speed, a reduction in Initiative correlates directly to reducing or slowing the swiftness/speed of a model. Since the Wraiths cannot be slowed by difficult terrain, their Initiative cannot be slowed/reduced as a result of moving through terrain.

paidinfull wrote:
Wow.
This is pretty interesting.

So by RAW
Pg 44 Wraithflight: "Canoptek Wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain"

They are simply "never slowed by difficult terrain", which I think we can all agree means that they move at their full rate. However, I'm not seeing where it's written that they ignore difficult terrain or that they do not move through it.

You're missing the part where they are Jump Infantry, then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FenrisianStuart21 wrote:
As a Necron player I would assume that they still drop to I1 because they did in fact move through it but are "not slowed" as per Pg. 44 Of Codex: Necrons. Imagine you're driving a car, if you turn suddenly, no you didn't slow down but you still turned. That's how I would read it, although if you're playing Wraiths you're bringing Whip Coils and this is a non-issue.

You need to equate to something correctly. Driving a car, you hit a large puddle and you're slowed. But, if you drive up to that same puddle and launch yourself over it but still land in it, you went the same distance but much faster and were not slowed.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
1) If they do not use their JI move they are moving through cover, and drop to I1
2) If they use their up to 12" JI move they are not moving through cover, but over it. they land IN cover at the end, but havent moved through it, so no drop to I1

The correct answer is in the second post.

paidinfull wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

paidinfull wrote:
If their initiative is reduced by moving through terrain, then you can make the argument that they were "slowed"

Except then you have the issue of a non-Wraith model rolling 3 6s for their charge move. They were not slowed by difficult terrain, so why is their initiative dropped?
Warp Speed improves my Initiative - why do I not move extra inches as well?

The two things are completely separate in 40k. You don't have permission to keep your init, so it drops.

It actually doesn't matter if the non-Wraith unit "were not slowed by difficult terrain", the rules state "that if at least one model in the charging unit moved *through* difficult terrain as part of its charge move, all of the unit's models must attack at Initiative step 1"

So rolling max distance isn't the issue, it's whether or not you moved *through* it.

Exactly correct. If a wraith jumps in the movement phase (and therefore cannot in the assault phase) he also moves through it and is not slowed. So in that scenario a wraith unit and a non-wraith unit that rolls 3 6's are exactly the same.

p2 BRB
Initiative (I)
This represents the swiftness of a creature's reactions. Models with a low Initiative characteristic (Orks w/ I2) are slow-witted, while models with a high Initiative characteristic (Genestealers w/ I6) react far more quickly. In close combat, Initiative dictates the order in which creatures strike.

As swiftness refers to speed, a reduction in Initiative correlates directly to reducing or slowing the swiftness/speed of a model. Since the Wraiths cannot be slowed by difficult terrain, their Initiative cannot be slowed/reduced as a result of moving through terrain.

Absolutely incorrect. You have fluff definitions and then the rules starting with the words "In close combat..."
What you're saying is that Initiative directly correlates with inches of movement which is demonstrably false. They're two different things.

wELL IIRC IN 5TH EDITION THEM STATEMENT OF IGNORE DIFFICULT AND DANGEROUS TERAIN DIDNT DROP YOUR INTIATIVE, THERE ARE NO STATEMENT IN THE RULEs now. nO GRENADES NO NORMAL INIT STEP JUMP PACKS OR NOT. OPPS sorry bout caps. ya need assault grenades.

It worked entirely different in 5th edition.

Lungpickle wrote:
OPPS sorry bout caps.

Seriously? Just go back and correct your post.

rigeld2 wrote:

Exactly correct. If a wraith jumps in the movement phase (and therefore cannot in the assault phase) he also moves through it and is not slowed. So in that scenario a wraith unit and a non-wraith unit that rolls 3 6's are exactly the same.

You're equating the actual results of the dice roll to a rule.
Please understand it's not the act of rolling the dice or the subsequent result of the dice roll that matters. It's a very simple check, did the unit move through difficult terrain? If yes then I1.

Do you see my point? While I understand you're saying the results are the same. The fact that the non-Wraith unit wasn't slowed by difficult terrain if it moved max distance doesn't negate the fact that they moved through difficult terrain. When they did that they meet the criteria for that rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

p2 BRB
Initiative (I)
This represents the swiftness of a creature's reactions. Models with a low Initiative characteristic (Orks w/ I2) are slow-witted, while models with a high Initiative characteristic (Genestealers w/ I6) react far more quickly. In close combat, Initiative dictates the order in which creatures strike.

As swiftness refers to speed, a reduction in Initiative correlates directly to reducing or slowing the swiftness/speed of a model. Since the Wraiths cannot be slowed by difficult terrain, their Initiative cannot be slowed/reduced as a result of moving through terrain.

Absolutely incorrect. You have fluff definitions and then the rules starting with the words "In close combat..."
What you're saying is that Initiative directly correlates with inches of movement which is demonstrably false. They're two different things.

So the speed with which someone does something isn't considered speed?

All I was illustrating was that the statement "they aren't slowed" can be construed as ambiguous. Are they referring only to Movement Speed or the speed at which the model acts or both?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kevin949 wrote:

paidinfull wrote:
Wow.
This is pretty interesting.

So by RAW
Pg 44 Wraithflight: "Canoptek Wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain"

They are simply "never slowed by difficult terrain", which I think we can all agree means that they move at their full rate. However, I'm not seeing where it's written that they ignore difficult terrain or that they do not move through it.

You're missing the part where they are Jump Infantry, then.

No, I'm not missing that.
Jump Infantry can choose to use their "jump pack" to move or they move as a normal model of its type.
If they moved using their jump pack in the movement phase (what I imagine is the majority circumstance), then when they are assaulting in the Assault phase, they are moving as Infantry

pr47 BRB
Jump units can use their jump packs once each turn to move more swiftly in either the Movement phase or the Assault Phase - they cannot use their jump packs in both phases in the same turn.

Yes, I know how JI work, you stated you didn't see where they ignore difficult terrain so I pointed out the rule that lets them do just that. However situational it may be, it still exists.

paidinfull wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Exactly correct. If a wraith jumps in the movement phase (and therefore cannot in the assault phase) he also moves through it and is not slowed. So in that scenario a wraith unit and a non-wraith unit that rolls 3 6's are exactly the same.

You're equating the actual results of the dice roll to a rule.
Please understand it's not the act of rolling the dice or the subsequent result of the dice roll that matters. It's a very simple check, did the unit move through difficult terrain? If yes then I1.

Do you see my point? While I understand you're saying the results are the same. The fact that the non-Wraith unit wasn't slowed by difficult terrain if it moved max distance doesn't negate the fact that they moved through difficult terrain. When they did that they meet the criteria for that rule.

Did the Wraith move through terrain?

rigeld2 wrote:

p2 BRB
Initiative (I)
This represents the swiftness of a creature's reactions. Models with a low Initiative characteristic (Orks w/ I2) are slow-witted, while models with a high Initiative characteristic (Genestealers w/ I6) react far more quickly. In close combat, Initiative dictates the order in which creatures strike.

As swiftness refers to speed, a reduction in Initiative correlates directly to reducing or slowing the swiftness/speed of a model. Since the Wraiths cannot be slowed by difficult terrain, their Initiative cannot be slowed/reduced as a result of moving through terrain.

Absolutely incorrect. You have fluff definitions and then the rules starting with the words "In close combat..."
What you're saying is that Initiative directly correlates with inches of movement which is demonstrably false. They're two different things.

So the speed with which someone does something isn't considered speed?

All I was illustrating was that the statement "they aren't slowed" can be construed as ambiguous. Are they referring only to Movement Speed or the speed at which the model acts or both?

It can only be construed as ambiguous if you're easter egging. You're trying to correlate movement speed with Initiative which is demonstrably false. You're trying to use fluff as rules. There's no rules basis for your argument.