Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey guys. Every now and then the question pops up about whether Creed is worth his point value. I have quite a bit of experience with Creed and Kell too for that matter so I’m going to try cover them both in as much detail as possible. The general consensus is that Creed becomes viable at around 1500-2000pts and that Kell isn’t really a good choice at all.

I’m going to rate each section in terms of usefulness out of ten. 1 been it’s pretty much broken, 10 been it‘s the end all, be all.

Stat line -

For starters Creed is a 90pt upgrade for a 50pt unit which is steep. His stat line isn’t all too impressive but it’s obvious he’s a bit better than you’re average guardsman. The 4+ carapace and the Refractor goes a little way to keep him alive but it’s hardly a sure thing. His 10 leadership stat stands him out as a leader of men rather than a really powerful unit. 6/10. Not a great stat line but does go a little way to keep him alive and it gives him a purpose.

Order radius -

His supreme commander rule gives him a 24’’ command bubble instead of the usual 12’’. One 24’’ bubble has a larger footprint than two 12’’ bubbles from two CCS but the two single bubbles have the benefit of been able to be placed in different locations. That’s if you don’t mind both HQ slots been taken. The HQ slots are a premium option for guard though since melta or plasma CCS are a highly sort after unit. I prefer to take Creed and run a second CCS with Plasma guns. You basically get two CCS in one but at a slightly higher cost. Not great but saves on the second HQ slot. 6/10 since it’s a situational benefit that gives you a viable second option to two CCS.


Extra two orders -

Same bonus and downside as above. You get the benefit of a second CCS but at a higher price. 140pts for Creeds CCS as opposed to 100pts for two singles. The two single CCS however give you more flexibility. You pay 40pts for a bit larger command radius than two singles and freeing up a HQ slot. 6/10

‘For Cadia’ -

The ‘For Cadia’ special order gives a non-vehicle unit fearless and furious charge for a single turn. While fearless isn’t always great for Guard, furious charge isn’t bad. If you have a large unit, a small boost such as the +1 strength can go a long way. It requires a little finesse to use reliably but with the new charging rules it’s not something to count on. It’s a nice order to use if the enemy are preparing to charge. If you’re going to end up in assault next turn, you might as well (in most situations) be the one doing the charging. The +1 strength and +1 Attack on the charge will bag you a fair few extra wounds here and there. Ability rating 7/10. It a useful little toy to play with but not something that makes Creed a good upgrade. Makes more sense as an addition to his main function rather than been it.

Tactical Genius -

The ability to allow a single unit to outflank. I’m not a fan of outflanking guard since it closes the distance between the enemy and my guns. The best way I found to use it was on a SWS with a demo charge and a pair of flamers. I don’t advise outflanking the Russ chassis since it has the armour to drive up table without serious concern. Outflanking it brings it closer to melta and charge range where it’s vulnerable. Maybe outflank a hellhound against hordes. The problem with outflanking guard is that you cut the unit off from support so it is unlikely it will survive more than a turn. With this in mind, my outflanking units get the suicide missions. Show up, gun down (or demo charge) the juiciest target in sight then get mauled. I’ve tried outflanking vets with a demo charge and three plasma. It worked but unless you have the enemy HQ or something expensive in range, you won’t earn its points back. 4/10 (it has the same problem as the ‘For Cadia’ order. It’s a nice little trick but it’s not the reason you should be taking Creed)

Overall use -

Creed doesn’t stand out as anything special and isn’t a must have for a guard army. He is basically a second CCS in one unit. His true potential is only realised when you mould your list around his abilities and orders (Something a gun-line should be doing anyway to gain the benefit of a regular CCS). You shouldn’t really be taking Creed if you have a spare HQ slot for a second CCS since it comes close to his abilities at a lower cost. To get the most out of Creed, he should be used as the backbone of you’re force. He will oil up your war machine. He can give BiD to your heavy weapons which is a big benefit. You can also go to ground with HWS or other valueable units more often too without the downsides next turn by using GBITF. You can also increase their cover save with ‘incoming!‘. Between going to ground and catching any falling back units, you can save a considerable chunk of guardsmen over the course of a game. The other orders which give you the ability to ignore cover, move a bit faster or gain extra lasgun shots also help out a little here and there and can have a big impact by the end of the game. Of course as I have said, you can get most of this with a second CCS. However, when you look at it in context, you only pay 40pts more for a bit better armour for Creed, his outflank and special order, a larger command bubble and a free'd up HQ slot. I think this makes him a viable choice for a player who wants to make the most of the order system but doesn’t want to sacrifice both HQ slots to running the army. See the bottom of the post for some orders and twin-linked math-hammer. Overall rating. 8/10

Kell -

Stat line -

At 85pts he’s too expensive for my liking. With the power fist, standard and power sword he’s got 40pts worth of gear with him but really, the only useful part is the standard. You don’t want a T3 85pt model in combat and even then, you can only use one of the close combat weapons. His I4 WS4 and SV4+ almost make you think he might actually be alright in combat. You’d be wrong. 3/10 Although his stat line isn’t bad for guard, he still doesn’t come close to holding his own against a marine and he doesn’t have anything that makes him shine.

Listen up maggots -

This ability means that orders are rolled for on the CCS leadership and not the Squads. Not a bad ability really. It means orders will pass about 83% of the time instead of something around 55% asuming you have Creed and you order something with LD7 like a HWS. Ideal for someone using lots of orders I.E Creed. 7/10 Could be better but certainly not bad

Sworn Protector -

This is ok for wound shinanigans but not great. You automatically pass your ‘look out sir!’ roll and divert wounds onto Kell. The problem is that at 85pts. He’s probably one of the guys you’d want to protect. With only two wounds, it’s a fluffy rule. 2/10

Overall -

Kells ‘listen up maggots’ is really the only reason to take him. If you were taking the Regimental standard anyway you’re really only paying 70pts but even at that he’s expensive. The order pass rate increase is great but you’re boosting a boost if that makes sense. Your already giving an order to a unit that wouldn’t normally benefit from the issued order which is great. Spending another 70-85pts to make it a little bit more reliable doesn’t strike me as points well spent. Even with Creed. Assuming you give four orders per turn, 6 turns, 24 orders. You should pass 13 of them over the game. Not bad. With Kell you’ll pass around 20. That’s like 10pts for every order Kell causes to pass. The twin linked may be worth that but most of the other orders are not. Kell is too expensive for too little impact. I feel he’s there for the fluff of Creeds back story rather than game play 4/10 Look at the math hammer below to see Kell’s influence.

Quick theory work to show the influence of Creed, Creed + Kell or an additional unit

X4 Lascannon HWS, 6 turns
72 shots
Total 36 hits

X4 Lascannon HWS, 6 turns, with Creeds x4 BID orders.
13 of 24 orders pass
39 shots twin linked - 29.25 hit
33 normal - 16.5 hit
Total 45.75 hits (+10 roughly on a unit without BID)

X4 Lascannon HWS, 6 turns, with Creeds x4 BID orders, with Kell
20 of 24 orders pass
60 shots twin linked - 45 hit
12 normal - 6 hit
Total 51 hits (+15 on a unit without BID)

X5 Lascannon HWS, 6 turns
90 shots
45 hits (Same as Creeds influence just about without his other abilities)

From this you can see Creed works out slightly better than a 5th HWS assuming you keep him alive and they fire every turn. 105pts per HWS - 90pts for Creed. I feel this, with his other abilities, makes him a viable option. Kell, assuming you would take the standard anyway for a moral HQ only bags you about an extra 5 hits over the course of a game. At 105pts, a lascannons HWS would bag an extra 9 hits for about 35pts more. He's alright but you'd be better spending the points elsewhere.

Creed + Kell get a lot of bad press. Personally, I think they're the best in the codex at pissing away points. Add Nord to make this devestating combo even more effective.

Yeah and then maybe add Yarrick at 185pts. I'm sure Yarricks point entry was a typo. Characters are rarely point effective. I've heard marbo is a good pro am but he's not for me.

Marbo is insanely good, always has been.

I'm not going to bother looking at any non-IG codexes to see what you can get in them for 185 points. But I'm willing to bet it's a hell of a lot better than Yarrik, as cool as he is.

Pask is also occasionally worthwhile, depending on points level and list composition.

I've heard a lot about Pask been good on the Punisher. The downside is the punisher wasn't very good although Ailaros made an interesting point about a week back about using it to take on flyers. I don't know about Pask but It's something i'm looking into. Norks great until you realise he's more expensive than anyone he's meant to protect lol As for 185pts for Yarrick, I don't think he'll ever be worth a battle tank to me

The Punisher is great with or without Pask but that's for a different thread. He'd also be pretty devestating on the Exterminator. Twin-Linked Heavy 4 BS 4 S8 vs tanks and monstrous creatures. That's pretty awesome, stick on some Heavy Bolters for more fun.

ok, yes there are a number of point sinks in the IG list, however Creed or Straken are probably the only decent ones.

first of all tactical genius gives the scouts rule, not just outflank. If you have first turn then you can have a squad of melta vets in the enemy lines 1st turn and still be within orders range or some thing like that. If you do outflank you can outflank entire Infantry platoons or tank squadrons. thus IMO Creed would be almost worth taking just for this.

Then the orders, 24" range means that yoy have pretty much got a quater of the board covered, also makes power blob squads more effective with for the honor of cadia, this is however less effective in 6th since FC no longer gives +1I. It does however mean that you can more reliably shoot vehicles and MC's before they get close, more effectively blow shooty squads out of cover and a myriad other uses, for more of your army.

as for his stat line, he's not supposed to be a cc monster. If your looking for a CC monster for guard you have come to the wrong codex.

yes, 90pnts is steep but is well worth it in any army over 1500 points, less if its an infantry heavy army. YMMV but this guy has won so many games for me.

as for straken, well he's sortof more restricted to a certain playstyle, ie the power blob/ ogryn charge since he gives all those special rules, It foes however mean that he is a fire magnet for every Ap3 weapon in the enemy army but thats just life. Guy is as close to a cc monster as IG gets (except maby yarick), worth taking bodyguards for to soak wounds off however very points heavy and realy only for funnsies though I have not used him in 6th yet.

Kell is probably not the best thing in the codex for 85 points though Ld10 orders are nothing to sneeze at especialy when dealing with multiple HWS and SWS (yeah, Ld7 sucks). and while he is not actualy a very solid protector, that rule is effectively an automatic look out sir thing, generaly taken when Ld7 orders are better than no orders at all.

WTB Ailaros' hilarious comparison of Kell+fist command vs Straken

It has amusing results! maybe not so amusing in 6th...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deceiver wrote:
Yeah and then maybe add Yarrick at 185pts. I'm sure Yarricks point entry was a typo. Characters are rarely point effective.

Try Kharne. at 75p more than a regular CSM lord, you get a lord that will beat the snot out of any other CSM lord.
The changeling is 5p. 5 points.
Or compare the points cost of Skulltaker to a khornate herald.
Casius (named C:SM Chaplain?) is 25p more than a regular chappy. It gives you T6, preferred enemy, a mastercrafted combiflamer, some other trinkets... for 25p over a regular chaplain, you get alot of bang for those 25 bucks.


Yarrick is in a world of his own though, sadly

 Deceiver wrote:
Yeah and then maybe add Yarrick at 185pts. I'm sure Yarricks point entry was a typo. Characters are rarely point effective.

Eldrad Ulthran is 5 points cheaper than a similarly decked out farseer, with +1 save, +1 toughness, the ability to redeploy D3+1 units, a weapon that wounds on 2+ and ignores armor and allows him to cast a third power in a turn, which can be the same power he cast before. If that is not cost effective I don't know what is.

On topic, Creed can be amazing when you have plenty of units to order around.For the honor of cadia can be used to great effect late game to have fearless troops sitting on objectives. Giving a unit scouts is silly sauce for outflanking something to clean the backfield, Kell is garbage, however.

Wait, what's so funny about the comparison?

Anyways, I've never been a big fan of creed. Just too many mandatory upgrades that are just too difficult to get use out of all of them.

Kell is neat, though. Firstly, start off with the fact that if you're wanting a standard anyways, Kell only costs 60 points. As mentioned, you get the extra orders, which isn't THAT big of a deal, but it's not nothing either. Don't forget that kell also helps squads hear incoming! and go! orders as well.

Then he adds a few carapace armor wounds. He comes with a power weapon AND fist, which makes him very flexible, especially if the power weapon is a mace, for example. He can always take a challenge so that a powerfist SO is safe from slay the warlord, and can beat up on something else with his several power fist attacks and plenty of wounds.

So, break it down. 15 points for the flag. 5 points for the carapace. 10 for the power weapon, 15 for the fist, and 10 for being two wounds of guardsmen. That's 55 points.

30 points for giving everybody better orders and some extra stats? That's actually not that bad, really.

Of course, if you don't want to have a choppy CCS, or don't have much by way of orders that are terribly important, well then don't bother. He's certainly not auto-include. He can actually be worth his points, though.

I have been running Creed/Kell/Nork since the 5th ed IG came out. I have found then to be a devastating combination. Especially with Carapace and Camo Cloaks in heavy Ruins. Now I have never had them assaulted, so I cant say anything about them in that sense.

I'm really tempted to just run Kell by himself in my lists on a normal CCS. Ld 9 isn't that much different from LD 10, and he'll give a decent CC ability that I've been considering on my CCS's for a while now. 85 points is a bit steep though, but he may well be worth it as I can put all of his abilities and upgrades to good use.

Creed on the other hand, I'm iffy about. Yes, that huge order radius is awesome, but with all the LOS blocking terrain we play with, I really need the second CCS over Creed's extra orders. There are rare situations where I can use him and make full use of his abilites, but they aren't often enough that I'm willing to pay as much as an insanely blinged out russ to do so.

The only control problems I have ever had is with my Rough Riders. I actually hardly ever the Vox-Caster Re-Roll, but the one unit that does not have a Vox Caster is ,y RR. They do real well if I use my “for the Honor of Cadia”, but everything else I roll 11s and 12s.