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Hi dakka, I have been getting info on Blood Angels for a while as I've been drawn in by their look and background and really want to get some to use in friendly (but still competitive haha) games.

I want to focus on close combat which my guard lack, with units I think look and sound cool. I know its sometimes unviable to base on army on what you like and still be strong, but I think death company are an exception!

So my possible allied detachment list...

HQ

Reclusiarch (jump pack, infernus or plasma pistol) - 170

TROOPS

Death Company (x5, jump packs, 1x power fist, 4x power weapons) - 200

Death Company Dreadnought (blood talons) - 125

HEAVY

Storm Raven (multi melta and twin linked lascannon) - 200

= 695

Ok firstly I know its a lot of points especially in a guard army but its a project I do want to do for other reasons than just effectiveness.

Secondly some info on my guard army... It's a hybrid with an ADL, ccs with plasma and reg standard, pcs with flamers, platoon with 3-4 AC and plasma IS's, 2 vet squads in Chimeras with plasma, 2 vendettas, a leman Russ, a Demolisher, an executioner... Obviously a chunk of this will be cut to make room for the Death Company.

And finally some questions...

I can save around 40pts by dropping jump packs which means they'll be slower on the ground but is it needed if in the raven?

Are the load outs on the squads ok? I have lots of plasma to fight 2+ so I've kitted the DC out to crush everything else..

The reclusiarch is the mandatory hq and gives re rolls to hit and wound on the charge, thinking that's the best option here?

Given the raven multi melta and lascannon for high value av, guess it depends on the rest of the list but is that load out reasonable?

Sorry for the long post! Thanks in advance if you've read this far and especially if you can offer some advice . Thanks!

adam304 wrote:
Hi dakka, I have been getting info on Blood Angels for a while as I've been drawn in by their look and background and really want to get some to use in friendly (but still competitive haha) games.

I want to focus on close combat which my guard lack, with units I think look and sound cool. I know its sometimes unviable to base on army on what you like and still be strong, but I think death company are an exception!

So my possible allied detachment list...

HQ

Reclusiarch (jump pack, infernus or plasma pistol) - 170

TROOPS

Death Company (x5, jump packs, 1x power fist, 4x power weapons) - 200

Death Company Dreadnought (blood talons) - 125

HEAVY

Storm Raven (multi melta and twin linked lascannon) - 200

= 695

Ok firstly I know its a lot of points especially in a guard army but its a project I do want to do for other reasons than just effectiveness.

Secondly some info on my guard army... It's a hybrid with an ADL, ccs with plasma and reg standard, pcs with flamers, platoon with 3-4 AC and plasma IS's, 2 vet squads in Chimeras with plasma, 2 vendettas, a leman Russ, a Demolisher, an executioner... Obviously a chunk of this will be cut to make room for the Death Company.

And finally some questions...

I can save around 40pts by dropping jump packs which means they'll be slower on the ground but is it needed if in the raven?

Are the load outs on the squads ok? I have lots of plasma to fight 2+ so I've kitted the DC out to crush everything else..

The reclusiarch is the mandatory hq and gives re rolls to hit and wound on the charge, thinking that's the best option here?

Given the raven multi melta and lascannon for high value av, guess it depends on the rest of the list but is that load out reasonable?

Sorry for the long post! Thanks in advance if you've read this far and especially if you can offer some advice . Thanks!

You could drop the jump packs but I personally like them on DC models. I also take Astorath with them or Lemartes, the re-rolls are a god-send.

As for IG, not a huge fan of plasmaguns simply because of the gets hot stuff, which isn't a huge ordeal, however you can run meltas that are good at killing AV 2 and good against vehicles (and they also won't ruin your day if you roll a 1).

Drop the jump packs and most (if not all) the special CC weapons on the DC. They don't need them. Get more models. The idea of DC is to overwhelm with the sheer number of attacks, not have a tiny elite group which only hits a few times.

10 DC > 5 DC with jump packs.

Indeed, if you field a Stormraven, the DC will not need jump packs.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Drop the jump packs and most (if not all) the special CC weapons on the DC. They don't need them. Get more models. The idea of DC is to overwhelm with the sheer number of attacks, not have a tiny elite group which only hits a few times.

10 DC > 5 DC with jump packs.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Indeed, if you field a Stormraven, the DC will not need jump packs.

In either case I'd like to again reiterate the usefulness of Asteroth and Lemartes. In addition to that 6th ed has made Jump Packs useful in 2 ways instead of simply just for movement, Hammer of Wrath. While overwhelming the opponent with attacks is good keep in mind if you 'do' choose to use jump packs that you get some functionality as well.

Also, me personally, I like to load my DC with power weapons (little expensive however). The power weapons allow you to chew through most infantry with ease and most people don't take too kindly to getting assaulted by a squad of DC (who have Rage) whom are also sporting Power weapons/Pistols. I personally modeled my last 5 DC with power lances. In the initial assault the lances are +1 str and AP 3 subsequent phases it drops to basic str and ap 4, however, on the charge if you do the math you get the follow: Base attacks + rage (+2 attacks on the assault rather than the normal +1) +1 attack for two close combat weapons (power lances are not 'two-handed' sweet!)+1 str (furious charge) +1 str (lance) and finally AP3.

So if I can recall correctly that is 5 attacks per DC member on the initial charge and at str 6 with the lances with AP 3. With Astorath or Lemartes you get to re-roll all hit and wound rolls, typically a 3 to hit and a 2 to wound, mathematically it works out great.

Hope that helps.

(Note, as with most units like the above terminator armor in 6th ed is considerably harder to crack now).

Thanks for all the help!

Firstly with guard I'm using all the plasma to tackle terminators, its usually my downfall not being able to stop them especially against deathwing that I play against a lot! I may change this after a few games though.

The jump packs I'm not sure on, i know they don't necessarily need them, but they can doa out of the raven if need be so it doesnt have to hover, and once on the ground get hammer of wrath like jstn pointed out. On the other hand I can see why they are not necessary.

In terms of lemartes or astorath, i was going to include one but noticed a reclusiarch gives the re rolls as well but for cheaper, so are astorath and lemartes both so good the extra should be spent on them? Bearing in mind lemartes is not an HQ so would need more points there too.

With the death company this is something i struggled with as I'm used to guard and necrons so not kitting out for cc. Still i thought the power weapons would be necessary for ap3, which is likely to be their main opponent?

I mean i can see the point again, for the same points I can get 10 plain DC with the 5 attacks each on the charge, all with re rolls, wow 50 attacks crazy haha! But then all those 3+ saves... I guess weight if attacks will still bring a lot down, but would 25 re rolled attacks that ignore ap3 be better.. I have no idea haha?

Thanks for all the help everyone! Am I generally on the right path?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
One more thing... am I putting all my eggs in one basket too much? I mean if that raven gets downed before dropping everyone off its the bulk of 700pts gone pretty much.

I know it'll be tough to down being a flyer with av 12 but if the opponent gets (very) Lucky or has lots of dedicated AA..

I guess the vendettas should help with this though too.

Too much eggs in one basket asks for getting into trouble.
We know about the abilities of Asteroth and Lemartes. However, they are too expensive in an ally detachment.

You could go a slightly different route?

HQ - Librarian w/Terminator Armour, Stormshield to go in the blob for psychic and combat support (as well as giving ATSKNF and a 3++). Take Divination to up the infantry's killing power considerably.

I play a similar style IG list to the one you have posted, and always think it would be nice to have one or two units to throw in your enemies face turn 1, to force them to deal with them 'or else' - giving your ranged weapons an extra turn or two of shooting.

As you like the DC; why not ten of them, in a Rhino?
Maybe 10x DC; Fist, 2x Power Swords, Rhino.

To complement these, I would have a DC Dreadnought, coming in via Drop Pod.

The plan here would be to drop the Dread down on a flank where there is the least chance of retaliation whilst still being able to charge turn 2. The DC would flat out towards the Dread to concentrate your forces.

Although they are essentially suicide units in this role, it should give your Guard an extra turn or two of shooting down the rest of the enemy; you can start by trying to shoot away all those units dangerous to the DC. Besides, the DC are supposed to die in battle, right?

I guess I just feel that the Stormraven + HQ + DC + Dread is too much eggs + basket. What if it doesn't show up until turn 4? What if it comes on and gets hit by a lucky Interceptor shot and explodes?

 wuestenfux wrote:
Too much eggs in one basket asks for getting into trouble.
We know about the abilities of Asteroth and Lemartes. However, they are too expensive in an ally detachment.

Yer that's what I thought why I had the reclusiarch. What would you suggest for getting them to the enemy lines? I don't really like drop pods; I could deep strike the DC with doa out of los and hope they survive the turn?

 Jstncloud wrote:
. In addition to that 6th ed has made Jump Packs useful in 2 ways instead of simply just for movement, Hammer of Wrath.

The only problem with this logic, is that for HoW on the charge, you're paying 75% of another model. 1 attack at S:4 I:10 isn't worth 75% of another model (which is 5 attacks on the charge) considering they are probably going to get a storm raven anyway. Death Company are incredibly durable too, so the extra movement is just not needed when you already have a storm raven.
You could even take a drop pod instead of worrying about hovering the storm raven. That's only 35pts, which is cheaper than giving 5 of them jump packs. I don't see what there is to not like about drop pods. They're cheap, they get you into the thick of the action and when your opponent sees death company stream out of it, he's going to ignore the rest of your army to take that down. Remember 3+ armor, 5+ FNP is pretty hard to kill.

The power weapon is just personal preference I guess. I don't see the need to include them, but maybe I've just had good luck (again a power weapon is 75% of another whole death company).

Thanks again everyone.

I am tempted by a librarian, especially for divination with guard so I'll think more about that.

The issue I have with drop pods is... I know its cheap points and does a good job deploying them... but I don't want to spend money on a basic model that won't be doing anything else. As this is an all round project I dont really fancy a drop pod. A rhino has the same issue but to a lesser extent. However that does seem the best option gaming wise and that's what I was looking for advice for so thanks!

I am definitely more drawn now to 10 DC over 5 with power weapons, being able to unleash that many attacks from a unit this tough sounds great. The jump packs I will drop if points must but othrrwise will be kept.

If I add an astropath to my guard it would be a greater chance of my 2 vendettas coming on with the raven to protect it, maybe this could be an option if I want to keep it?

adam304 wrote:

I am tempted by a librarian, especially for divination with guard so I'll think more about that.

Yeah, Divination is pretty pimp in Guard armies.

The issue I have with drop pods is... I know its cheap points and does a good job deploying them... but I don't want to spend money on a basic model that won't be doing anything else. As this is an all round project I dont really fancy a drop pod. A rhino has the same issue but to a lesser extent. However that does seem the best option gaming wise and that's what I was looking for advice for so thanks!

Well, Drop Pod/Rhino might not be the 'best' option, but I think it's more reliable than the Stormraven. The most reliable option is to chuck the DC in a Land Raider and just use them to batter anything that gets too close to the Guard elements.

I am definitely more drawn now to 10 DC over 5 with power weapons, being able to unleash that many attacks from a unit this tough sounds great. The jump packs I will drop if points must but otherwise will be kept.

Well, you could just have 10x DC with Jump Packs and hide them behind tanks/BLoS terrain to keep them alive. Might be worth experimenting with...

If I add an astropath to my guard it would be a greater chance of my 2 vendettas coming on with the raven to protect it, maybe this could be an option if I want to keep it?

Yes. An Astropath would be an excellent addition if you want to keep the SR, although I would still be very hesitant to put anything inside it. I would keep it kitted out as per your OP and have the vendettas and the SR can take out the AA then AT assets, before dropping down to hover if required.

adam304 wrote:
The issue I have with drop pods is... I know its cheap points and does a good job deploying them... but I don't want to spend money on a basic model that won't be doing anything else.

I have a friend that uses an upturned plastic cup to represent a drop pod. It's a similar size and no one at my local store minds, despite the jokes. What I'm getting at is, you don't need to buy such a model as long as you're not going to a tournament. Most people are understanding about monetary constraints.

adam304 wrote:
Thanks for all the help!

Firstly with guard I'm using all the plasma to tackle terminators, its usually my downfall not being able to stop them especially against deathwing that I play against a lot! I may change this after a few games though.

The jump packs I'm not sure on, i know they don't necessarily need them, but they can doa out of the raven if need be so it doesnt have to hover, and once on the ground get hammer of wrath like jstn pointed out. On the other hand I can see why they are not necessary.

In terms of lemartes or astorath, i was going to include one but noticed a reclusiarch gives the re rolls as well but for cheaper, so are astorath and lemartes both so good the extra should be spent on them? Bearing in mind lemartes is not an HQ so would need more points there too.

With the death company this is something i struggled with as I'm used to guard and necrons so not kitting out for cc. Still i thought the power weapons would be necessary for ap3, which is likely to be their main opponent?

I mean i can see the point again, for the same points I can get 10 plain DC with the 5 attacks each on the charge, all with re rolls, wow 50 attacks crazy haha! But then all those 3+ saves... I guess weight if attacks will still bring a lot down, but would 25 re rolled attacks that ignore ap3 be better.. I have no idea haha?

Thanks for all the help everyone! Am I generally on the right path?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
One more thing... am I putting all my eggs in one basket too much? I mean if that raven gets downed before dropping everyone off its the bulk of 700pts gone pretty much.

I know it'll be tough to down being a flyer with av 12 but if the opponent gets (very) Lucky or has lots of dedicated AA..

I guess the vendettas should help with this though too.

Good catch with the re-rolls, I never knew the unnamed HQ did the same thing. In that case it comes down to personal preference.

I personally like the power weapons, the weight of attacks is good but leaves some room for survival. 25 attacks at ap3 leaves little room for the opponent to live.

As for the Storm Raven and it's cargo being a bulk of your points, it sucks unfortunately. With the inability to deploy the raven on the board as a skimmer it limits you on getting that cargo to the fight efficiently because it may or may not come in turn 2 and may or may not get shot down before the cargo is deployed (keep in mind deep striking out of the raven does not allow you to assault even though it is an assault vehicle).




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Jstncloud wrote:
. In addition to that 6th ed has made Jump Packs useful in 2 ways instead of simply just for movement, Hammer of Wrath.

The only problem with this logic, is that for HoW on the charge, you're paying 75% of another model. 1 attack at S:4 I:10 isn't worth 75% of another model (which is 5 attacks on the charge) considering they are probably going to get a storm raven anyway. Death Company are incredibly durable too, so the extra movement is just not needed when you already have a storm raven.
You could even take a drop pod instead of worrying about hovering the storm raven. That's only 35pts, which is cheaper than giving 5 of them jump packs. I don't see what there is to not like about drop pods. They're cheap, they get you into the thick of the action and when your opponent sees death company stream out of it, he's going to ignore the rest of your army to take that down. Remember 3+ armor, 5+ FNP is pretty hard to kill.

The power weapon is just personal preference I guess. I don't see the need to include them, but maybe I've just had good luck (again a power weapon is 75% of another whole death company).

If the storm raven goes down the jump packs can still be used to get around the board, in addition to that if you run Astorath or Lemartes with them you 'need' jump packs or those two characters are moving at the slowest speed of the squad (6 inches).

I see your logic, but it ultimately comes down to what you want to do with the DC, a tactical nuke (run in an destroy everything) or be well rounded (be able to nuke and not be completely screwed if their ride is taken out).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

adam304 wrote:
Thanks again everyone.

I am tempted by a librarian, especially for divination with guard so I'll think more about that.

The issue I have with drop pods is... I know its cheap points and does a good job deploying them... but I don't want to spend money on a basic model that won't be doing anything else. As this is an all round project I dont really fancy a drop pod. A rhino has the same issue but to a lesser extent. However that does seem the best option gaming wise and that's what I was looking for advice for so thanks!

I am definitely more drawn now to 10 DC over 5 with power weapons, being able to unleash that many attacks from a unit this tough sounds great. The jump packs I will drop if points must but othrrwise will be kept.

If I add an astropath to my guard it would be a greater chance of my 2 vendettas coming on with the raven to protect it, maybe this could be an option if I want to keep it?

The astropath is the IG model that gives you a bonus to reserves right? I'd be hesitant on this one, it all but guarantees that your IG models come in turn 2 but you have to keep in mind that this increase the odds that your opponent's fliers/AA stuff comes in after your fliers do which in most cases is not ideal. I personally run the Master of The Fleet and Astropath together, 2+ for your stuff 4+ for the opponent, best chances of doing what you are trying to do while keeping your models reasonably safe (admittedly this was a little more efficient in 5th ed when the fleet made the opponent roll a 5+ on turn 2).

@infinty: I may wait to use a librarian in an army that's mainly blood angels with guard allies, in this allied detachment 'i like having the reclusiarch for re rolls - otherwise I'd go with a librarian and lemartes with the DC... I will look into that actually and how many points it is! Mainly because I love that librarian model in the box set and want to get and use it haha.

Also I will keep the jump packs and possibly do what you suggested, use the packs to move them aorund in cover etc or DoA them behinc enemy lines and out of LoS so they are hidden for a turn.

@Griddlelol: That's a great idea and I might actually do that if I do decide to get a drop pod in the list

@jstncloud:

25 attacks at ap3 leaves little room for the opponent to live

I am kind of swaying back towards this, I mean I will mostly be facing marines, and wouldn't run them up against terminators unless they had been weakened, so pretty much everything they will be trying to demolish will be 3+sv.

I guess it will take a bit of testing though, it just annoying having to model the units with certain weapons when building them (don't fancy magnetizing things).

At the moment I'm thinking a reclusiarch, 5 DC with power weapons, DC dread, and then either a storm raven or a proxy drop pod and a librarian with those extra points (in this case I'd bring lemartes to replace the reclusiarch's re rolls).

Either way I'm thinking having the DC with jump packs either DoA in or hoping around cover, the Raven or Pod getting the dread where it's needed. The librarian would be a tester to see how it does or I'd use the extra points from dropping the Raven back on my guard.

Thanks everyone!

 Jstncloud wrote:
The astropath is the IG model that gives you a bonus to reserves right? I'd be hesitant on this one, it all but guarantees that your IG models come in turn 2 but you have to keep in mind that this increase the odds that your opponent's fliers/AA stuff comes in after your fliers do which in most cases is not ideal.

This is sound advice. The advisers are pretty crappy when you actually use them.

Also Jstncloud, you're right, they have different uses, I do prefer to use mine as a "OMG WTF DO I DO THERE'S A TON OF DC ON MY ASS" while the rest of my army manoeuvres to take out the threats that are now ignoring them for the oh-so-scary DC.