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Hey everyone so I run an gk/ ba allied list and in a game I played just yesterday, it came to controversey
when I chose to deepstrike my squad of DC within 12" of a servo skull

The rule states a "servo skull is not counted as a unit but a counter", however, in the rulebook
under allies of convenience it states that UNITS IN YOUR ARMY TREAT ALLIES OF CONVENIENCE
AS ENEMY UNITS THAT CAN'T VE CHARGED, SHOT, TARGETED WITH PSYCHIC POWERS, OR TEMPLATES.

So is the Deepstricking DC, treated as an enemy unit for the purpose of the deepstrike in which case they can't interact with each other?
therefore they don't benefit from the d6 less DS scatter?

or

Since the servo skull isnt techinally a unit, they are allowed to use the rule of the servo skull since they are only enemy units for the purposes of that of which stated above,
therefore they are friendly units for the purpose of the deepstrike and may therefore come in with one less D6 Scatter dice iin which case means, they have no scatter?

And while I'm at it

Say if you were to have an allied vindicator shooting into range of the servo skull, would you benefit from the d6 less scatter as the vindicator is not treated as shooting at a
"FRIENDLY UNIT since the servo skull is not a unit?"

Thanks everyone

Your logic makes sense to me.
But youd better Prepare for the haters.

While the servo skull is not itself a unit, it interacts with friendly and enemy units... so for that purpose, I would think that anything treated by the rules as an enemy unit would count as an enemy unit for the servo skull.

Only 'friendly' units can benefit from the servo skulls in that fashion; Allies of convenience are treated as 'enemy units'.

Presumably they'd (the allied army) would suffer from the 'unable to infiltrate or scout within 12 inches, and have to remove the servo-skull if within 6"' aspect of the rules for it though as those do apply to enemy units.

But Neorealist, it doesn't specify allies of convenience are "enemy units period", that's where the controversy lies. They are only treated as "enemy units under the given circumstances" otherwise in all other purposes they are freindly units, which makes sense seeing they are allies.

And as a servo skull isnt a unit, the DC or allied blast marker should be treated in contempt to that of friendly unit?

Sorry, but i believe that it does. It lists them as enemy units. (full stop) That (in addition to being treated as enemy units) cannot be charged, shot at, targetted with psychic powers, or have templates and blast markers placed over them. (by their allied army.)

Awight i'm not gonna disagree with your logic either on that one but, it can deffinitely go both ways, a coin toss i guess
=)

To tell the truth i wish that (non-battle brother) allies could do more to benefit from each others cool effects than they've allowed for. There are a few that can sneak in though, with careful army list building. The key i've found is to look for stuff that normally effects enemy (or all) units that you wouldn't mind at all happening to your allied contingent.

This discussion has come up again recently in the 'Tactics' section. Here's a link. I chose to resurrect this thread from the ranks of the deceased rather than start a new one since it seemed relevant to have the old posts on the question at hand, especially since those comments are small enough in number to still be topical and concise.

Polecat wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I think th/ss terminators could work with the gate librarian (I would put him in terminator armor too, personally) but they couldn't benefit from the servo-skulls. (Since Grey Knights are only allies of convenience with Space Marines, and unless I remember wrong, allies of convenience treat each other like enemy units that cannot be targeted or assaulted.) I play a Drop Pod list, and have frequently used a Gate'ing librarian bouncing off the locator beacons, so I can personally verify that it's a pretty useful tactic. (Although I use Sternguard.)

If you read the Allies of Convenience -rule, you will see that it only affects units. Servo skulls are not units, their description specifically mentions this. So Servo skulls are not affected by AoC or Desperate Allies rules. I think further discussion about this should be taken to YMDC.

Anyway, thank you all for comments so far. I think I will try this tactic.

Yes, but the Librarian IS a unit. And so is whichever Grey Knight choice bought the servo-skulls as wargear. And in relation to one another, they are enemy units. And since the Librarian cannot benefit from his enemy's wargear (which the servo-skull is) then he cannot benefit from the servo-skulls.

I would certainly discuss this with your opponent. This discussion clearly shows that there is disagreement over how this should be played, and should definitely be established beforehand.

Yes I can see your point about Servo skulls being wargear from a unit that is considered enemy by AoC. However, in relation to actual markers on the battlefield (the Servo skull markers) they are friendly units.

No, the servo-skulls aren't units at all, as you pointed out.
The only relation they have is as a model's wargear. A model that is an enemy unit to the one trying to use said wargear.

rigeld2 wrote:
No, the servo-skulls aren't units at all, as you pointed out.
The only relation they have is as a model's wargear. A model that is an enemy unit to the one trying to use said wargear.

True. The issue can be difficult to resolve, because there are no rules for equipment that is placed as a counter on the table and that is not a unit, in relation to AoC -units.

I would allow it, but to avoid arguments during game discuss it with opponent / TO.

There would need to be rules for equipment to allow this. Since there isn't its not allowed.

Easter egging at best.

Easter egging? What does that mean?

I dont think there needs to be additional rules.

"Servo-skulls are treated as counters, rather than units, for all
intents and purposes. They are placed on the battlefield after
deployment areas have been determined, but before any
forces are deployed"

"A friendly unit arriving by
Deep Strike rolls one D6 less for scatter if it aims to arrive
within 12 • of a Servo-skull."


Those are all the rules you need for this to work for allies.

Allies of convenience and desperate allies are "friendly units", except to other units. Equipment is not a unit.

If there are some rules in the BRB or codex preventing this, I would love to see those rules.

Equipment is not a unit.
Equipment is wargear a unit has.
Since AoC are enemies to the unit, his wargear will not function for them.

Just like teleport homers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Easter egging is when you think there's a hole in the rules and so attempt to argue that it's allowed when there's no rules support for it.

rigeld2 wrote:

Since AoC are enemies to the unit, his wargear will not function for them.

Do you have a rule quote to support this?

rigeld2 wrote:

Easter egging is when you think there's a hole in the rules and so attempt to argue that it's allowed when there's no rules support for it.

Ok. Well, I actually enjoy looking for powerful combos in the rules. If this is called easter egging, then I think I like easter egging.

Polecat wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Since AoC are enemies to the unit, his wargear will not function for them.

Do you have a rule quote to support this?

That your wargear doesn't work for enemy units?
Well, for one its right there in the rules you've quoted. It works for friendly units. Is an enemy unit friendly?

rigeld2 wrote:

Easter egging is when you think there's a hole in the rules and so attempt to argue that it's allowed when there's no rules support for it.

Ok. Well, I actually enjoy looking for powerful combos in the rules. If this is called easter egging, then I think I like easter egging.

There's a difference between deliberately misinterpreting rules to gain an advantage and using actual rules correctly. The former is Easter egging.

rigeld2 wrote:

That your wargear doesn't work for enemy units?
Well, for one its right there in the rules you've quoted. It works for friendly units. Is an enemy unit friendly?

It does not specify the point of view. It just states "friendly unit".

If it said something like "friendly unit to the unit that purchased the Servo skulls", or even "friendly unit to units from GK codex" I would agree with you.

However, it does not specify that. All it says is "friendly unit". So I ask myself, is a unit in my armylist a friendly unit. The answer is yes, and I therefore assume, that the conditions in the Servo skulls rules are met.

The only possible perspective for a models wargear is units friendly to that model. The wargear has no perspective itself - it can't. It's not a unit.

You dont need to be a unit to have "perspective", whatever you mean by that. There is nothing in the rules about perspective of wargear.

The "friendly unit" part can be interpreted as a general reference to any unit from your army.

Polecat wrote:
You dont need to be a unit to have "perspective", whatever you mean by that. There is nothing in the rules about perspective of wargear.

The "friendly unit" part can be interpreted as a general reference to any unit from your army.

It really can't. It's a unit friendly to the model with the wargear.

Or can I use your Teleport Homers as well?

Polecat, its spelled out clearly on pg 112. Units in your army treat AoC as enemy units.

The "friendly unit" part can be interpreted as a general reference to any unit from your army.

The rules clearly state that you have friendly and enemy units in your "army". How do you determine which is which, unless you see which unit bought the servo skulls. Otherwise, if the servo skulls are "neutral" then no one in your army can use them.

rigeld2 wrote:

Or can I use your Teleport Homers as well?

I suppose RAW says that you could, or am I mistaken? Teleport Homers just mention unit, not friendly unit, or unit from your army.

This is one of those things that players need to agree on, and not follow RAW?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

The rules clearly state that you have friendly and enemy units in your "army".

Actually they dont state that clearly, or I have missed that part of the rules. Could you point out where it is explained what "friendly unit" means?

A unit that isnt an enemy, for a start. And GKs treat SM as enemies, so definitely not friendly

I was curious about where in BRB is this explained, not so much about what it actually means.

Anyway, my statement still stands, I think that a phrase "friendly unit" in the context of Servo skulls rules can be interpreted as to mean a unit in your own army.

I'm basing this on the fact that in 5th edition if you read this rule, you would instantly think "friendly units" to mean units in your army.

Now the edition is different, but the text is the same.

Yes, and the rules have changed to tell you that otherwise friendly units teach eachother as unfriendly.

The BRB does not define every word, so you have to use common usage. Common usage is that the wargear of one model (ServoSkuils are wargear of the model that bought it) that is an enemy of another cannot be used.

Sure, that is a good way to interpret it.

However, it think that if I would play it in my gaming group as I suggested, I would not break the letter of the rule either.
I might be breaking the spirit of the rule, but not the letter of it.

What I'm saying is, that it is not impossible to read it the way I suggested.

It also isnt the common usage of every piece of wargear and "friendly" in the entire game

When you have two optoins, and one is creating a unique situation for no other reason than you want it to work that way, then you are on shaky ground trying to claim that is the way to interpret it.

Polecat wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Or can I use your Teleport Homers as well?

I suppose RAW says that you could, or am I mistaken? Teleport Homers just mention unit, not friendly unit, or unit from your army.

This is one of those things that players need to agree on, and not follow RAW?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

The rules clearly state that you have friendly and enemy units in your "army".

Actually they dont state that clearly, or I have missed that part of the rules. Could you point out where it is explained what "friendly unit" means?

You did not read page 112. "Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy units that...." Units in your ARMY.... clearly states that your army can contain friendly and enemy units.

continue down the page.... "Are not counted a friendly units for the targeting of psychic powers..."

As far as defining what "friendly" and "enemy" is, you should reread the core rules, (shooting, assaulting, etc.) they frequently tell you what friendly units and enemy units are (without explicitly defining them). And pg 112. defines what "friendly units" can do in terms of Allies in the Battle Brothers section.

Fragile wrote:

Units in your ARMY.... clearly states that your army can contain friendly and enemy units.

No, your army only contains friendly units. AoC units treat friendly allied units as enemy units, but they are still friendly units to you and your army. Otherwise AoC troops could not claim objectives.